When will we ve buffed?

[Deleted]

-snip-

TL;DR: The rest of my raid are worse players than me so my class is fine.

Good job, mate!

[Deleted]

Why do people keep insisting on using anecdotal evidence? That would be the same as me going to the casino once, hitting it big and telling people to go because I won there once.

Back to the matter of the fact, DH Havoc has so much front-loaded damage that I don't think they can buff us too much without hurting the rest of the classes in the PvP scene and I actually think that the nerf that came in the hotfix was targeted at PvP and they somehow forgot to compensate for us in ST. They could move more of our DMG to dots but that would just make us a melee warlock and ruin the Demon Hunter fantasy.

It is quite a pickle overall and has made the Demon Hunter quite a flawed design.

[Sandraudiga]

We're in the middle. We're fine, stop trying to be the best, that just puts a target on your back and ends up getting you nerfed to the ground.

Unless you play a mage or a lock. If you look at the history of wow you see the same classes at the top, sometimes by a large margin. If anything we need more of a burst aoe nerf and a fair sized buff to single target.

[Deix-EU]

I keep seeing these threads, but as a Havoc DH main, I just don't see it. I do not raid mythic EN, so it must be exclusive to that raid that we are bad.... in LFR/normal raids/mythic+ 5mans/world boss raids/pvp, I am quite strong. I hear you that there are sims that claim we are shit, but in game, doing content both with my guild and with randoms / pugs, I am always either dominantly top dps (mythic+ with guild), or in top 4 during raids.

The only time I was near the bottom for dps was during our first attempt of Ursoc back during first week, when I was main shot caller and spent the entire time watching the group and calling out who needs to move where etc, and forgot to even use meta. That fight I was 3rd from bottom.

Otherwise I am doing great. ilvl 848.

Are all the complaints coming from mythic EN guilds?


Honestly at this point I don't expect or feel I deserve a buff of any kind. I feel very strong and not clunky at all.

I do put 300k DPS+ average on most fights, the less I do is 260k~ on moves etc. That's great and all, I'm doing what my sim tells me so can't really improve and I'm generally at the top. BUT I'm the 2nd ilvl guy (860 with legendary ring, well weapon only 874 so ...). HOWEVER, when other people are getting in 860 / 870 range which is the minimum for Mythic EN, they scale more in ST and while we're in a nice position, some classes are ahead. For example, can't compete with our mage. The situation is tricky cause there are lot of gear with mastery . I arrived at a point where my sim crit, haste, vers and mastery is roughly the same weight ! It's extremely hard to scale with such a balance of our stats cause nothing is OP, nothing's bad either.

[roflwaffle]

I get crushed by Feral, Demo and Ret on single or mostly single fights...but I'm usually the first non-Feral, Demo or Ret after that.


For whatever that's worth.

well considering feral and demo (dont know about ret) have nothing but single target id hope they'd win lol

[Teddybearavenger]

We are currently the lowest ranked dps for boss damage in the 75th to 100th percentile for both heroic and mythic encounters. Not the lowest spec, but the lowest damage dealer out of all classes.

Therefore we should be buffed...right?

(Single target)

rofl no you are not gtfo with that bullshit.

[Killface1]

Why do people keep insisting on using anecdotal evidence? That would be the same as me going to the casino once, hitting it big and telling people to go because I won there once.

TL;DR: The rest of my raid are worse players than me so my class is fine.

Good job, mate!

When one person misses the point, maybe its because they're dumb. When two people do it, I guess I probably didn't make my point well enough.

Demon Hunters are easy to play well. I'm not one of those people who thinks a class needs to be hard to be fun - I think demon hunters are crazy fun, but they're not difficult to do large amounts of damage.

Point being, the only relevance of damage or healing or tanking ability relative to other classes for any spec in the game is if some spec is so strong as to cheese or otherwise break encounters in such a way that it wasn't designed for, or so weak that they're a liability to the raid rather than a benefit. If a spec is good enough that it can provide substantial benefit to a raid group just by being there and being played well, there's no big reason to fuck with it, and plenty not to.

All the evidence suggests that demon hunters are still being brought to not only raids, but progression fights. They're very versatile, they have high burst, great aoe and cleave. At the moment, with how easy they are to play, and how much more room there is to minmax, if you're sitting in the sub 90% you're playing the spec wrong. Eventually as more players figure out how to play them, those % brackets will obviously change, making this point no longer true, but at this moment in time, if you're not pulling numbers with one you're doing it wrong.

The only reason blizzard sees fit to buff or nerf specs is if they feel that spec is so bad as to be a liability or so good as to be able to skip mechanics by out dpsing them, leading to raids class stacking and dropping players of the wrong spec.

Don't hold your breath on a buff, because Blizzard doesn't think we need one, and they're right. I get that your ego demands that you be playing the spec that sims the highest or whatever, but I personally don't care, and fortunately neither does Blizzard.

Stop looking at dps relative to other classes and take a look at whether or not a demon hunter can be brought in, play their class with reasonable competency, and perform their job well. Fact is we can and do, so there's no reason whatsoever for a buff.

[Deleted]

All the evidence suggests that demon hunters are still being brought to not only raids, but progression fights. They're very versatile, they have high burst, great aoe and cleave. At the moment, with how easy they are to play, and how much more room there is to minmax, if you're sitting in the sub 90% you're playing the spec wrong. Eventually as more players figure out how to play them, those % brackets will obviously change, making this point no longer true, but at this moment in time, if you're not pulling numbers with one you're doing it wrong.

The only reason blizzard sees fit to buff or nerf specs is if they feel that spec is so bad as to be a liability or so good as to be able to skip mechanics by out dpsing them, leading to raids class stacking and dropping players of the wrong spec.

Don't hold your breath on a buff, because Blizzard doesn't think we need one, and they're right. I get that your ego demands that you be playing the spec that sims the highest or whatever, but I personally don't care, and fortunately neither does Blizzard.

Stop looking at dps relative to other classes and take a look at whether or not a demon hunter can be brought in, play their class with reasonable competency, and perform their job well. Fact is we can and do, so there's no reason whatsoever for a buff.

First of all, I really like your post in terms of tone etc. A good read and valuabl part of a reasonable discussion I disagree with your points tho.

1. With higher gear gear (ilevel brackets) and better player performance (performance brackets), Demon Hunters actually get worse compared to the other classes. This suggests that player skill and gear actually don't help the DHs performance. This may indicate that they scale bad (which is not the case) or have a very low skill cap (which is somewhat the case compared to some other specs, but definetly not all of them, since there are enough "OP" "2-button" specs at the top atm).

My guess is that the aforementioned trend comes from the fact that the (very few, if any) DHs brought in the progression race were a) generally better geared than the rest of the raid (true for most of them) and b) better players, outperforming potentially higher DPS specs in comparable gear (true for most of them) (fyi, I watched and armory-ed quite a lot of the progression race).

I wholheartedly agree on your point that DHs are in no way so "bad", that they are a detriment to the raid in a way that makes it necessary to sit them. But that is true for almost any spec at anyy point in WoWs history after TBC as long as you don't "stack" low/underperforming classes/specs. It is also true that (unfortunately) many raids still look at stuff like "how good is this class/spec" when assigning raid spots. It may not be necessary but it happens. And, lastly, it does make a noticeable difference if you have several DHs/DKs or more, for example, Rets/Enhancers in your composition if player skill is equal.

2. I don't know how long you have been around this game, but Blizzard absolutely does not balance around classes only when their performance is somehow gamebreaking. That point is demonstrably false.

Demon Hunters are the best example of this: we were absolutely average in raid performance and gods in M+. They nerfed our ST and our AoE (not enough on the latter though). The ST nerf was completely unwarranted since we were average before. The AoE nerf did absolutel nothing, we are still god tier in M+ dungeons. SO either they don't know what to do or they don't know how to do it.

There are countless other examples (Arcane Mages in WoD anyone?) that show that Blizzard is neither consistent nor very competent when it comes to balancing, at least during the last 2+ years.

Conclusion: I, as I mentioned in a previous post, don't think we will get a buff and I don't think we desperately need it. But personally I would buff our ST by buffing CS, for example. My biggest issue is that Blizzard either does not know what to balance (nerfing our ST without need) or does not know how to do it porperly (the AoE nerf was not big enough and hurt ST). This is troubling, especially if your class is sitting on the last spot in terms of raid performance already (tho it is still viable).

[HeiAggra]

Heroic shows we are middle of the pack with no boss where we "crush it"


Would I like to be upper middle? Yes.
Am I glad I'm not lower middle? Yes.


Just remember...we could always be Frost DKs

This is just stupid, WE HAVE 1 DPS SPEC, DK can go UH and do more dps than us! we need to be upper middle not this joke! To nerf the AOE i understand but they fucked the ST damage so much it's idiotic.

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They need to buff single target dps, that simple. I don't want to be an aoe padding class.

True! They could have just nerfed damage for secondary targets, Fel rush 30% in secondary targets, GT same and keep the main target damage like before simple

[Vynny]

We are at the absolute bottom, last place for a class. Not a spec as I said. Every other class, all of them have a higher dps option then us. Frost DKs can go unholy. Frost mages can switch too. We are the lowest class.

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, warrior, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock and dk.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, and dk.

Mythic doesn't have enough data considering half of the parses are missing entire specs due to how few people have done it, so I can't really use mythic parses as a reliable source of data.

The point is that no, DH's are not the absolute bottom class.

EDIT:

Also, who cares about just boss damage? Add damage matters a fuck ton more than boss damage on add fights. The point is that overall fight dps is what's important, not how well you can tunnel a boss. Seriously, this is the most petty class balancing complaint I've ever heard, and I've heard some petty ones. You think that Havoc deserves a buff because on boss damage (or single target which is not it's niche) it's the bottom class, but is middle of the pack when it comes to specs and remember, we're in an expansion where dps are more locked into their spec than ever before due to artifacts.

[HeiAggra]

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, warrior, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock and dk.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, and dk.

Mythic doesn't have enough data considering half of the parses are missing entire specs due to how few people have done it, so I can't really use mythic parses as a reliable source of data.

The point is that no, DH's are not the absolute bottom class.

EDIT:

Also, who cares about just boss damage? Add damage matters a fuck ton more than boss damage on add fights. The point is that overall fight dps is what's important, not how well you can tunnel a boss. Seriously, this is the most petty class balancing complaint I've ever heard, and I've heard some petty ones. You think that Havoc deserves a buff because on boss damage (or single target which is not it's niche) it's the bottom class, but is middle of the pack when it comes to specs and remember, we're in an expansion where dps are more locked into their spec than ever before due to artifacts.

Blizz said we were too good in AOE and they are right so nerf AOE not ST that's is the point!

[Vynny]

Hmmm...seen these threads for SP and warlocks, claiming DH and hunters faceroll the meters. I guess when we finally have a thread for every specc crying how they are shit, we know everything is truly balanced

but the only way he can justify his complaint is if he only focuses on boss dps and ignores the fact that adds exist and are what DH's are good at. The instant you include adds into the equation DH's outpace locks, DK's and ret pallies. Unless this guy thinks that add dps on Il'gynoth, Elerethe, Dragons, Cenarius, or Xavius is just completely unimportant then he's just whining. Oh the humanity, on 2 fights in the raid his niche isn't usable and his dps is slightly sub par, but the instant he get's an extra target to hit he becomes top tier. Please Blizzard buff him.

Seriously, there's 1 fight where havoc's in the bottom third and they're just barely in it, 2 fights where they're in the middle third, and 4 fights where they're in the top third when it comes to overall dps, but because they don't have amazing boss dps they need a buff? Give me a break, start living in the bottom of the barrel on a majority of the fights then cry about needing a buff.

[Skulltaker]

Blizz said we were too good in AOE and they are right so nerf AOE not ST that's is the point!

Yeah. But if you only one singletarget ability, and the rest are AoE, you also nerf ST damage. I agree that the AoE was to much. They should just give us a toggle on/off ability to make all our AoE do more damage to a selected target and less damage to any other target.

[Vynny]

Blizz said we were too good in AOE and they are right so nerf AOE not ST that's is the point!

but overall dps is all that matters. How much boss dps you do is inconsequential unless every boss is a patchwerk fight. DH's are top tier in 4/7 boss fights when it comes to overall dps, and they're only bottom tier in 1 boss fight. This is not an indication of needing a buff,

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well considering feral and demo (dont know about ret) have nothing but single target id hope they'd win lol

demo gets crushed in actual raiding scenario's because any amount of movement kills their damage. If you look at the parses they're middle of the pack overall despite having one of the highest single target damage potentials.

[Tobedeleted123]

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, warrior, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 2 weeks, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock and dk.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 75th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, dk, and ret pally.

On heroic bosses, over 1 week, 90th percentile, DH's are above all flavors of lock, and dk.

Mythic doesn't have enough data considering half of the parses are missing entire specs due to how few people have done it, so I can't really use mythic parses as a reliable source of data.

The point is that no, DH's are not the absolute bottom class.

EDIT:

Also, who cares about just boss damage? Add damage matters a fuck ton more than boss damage on add fights. The point is that overall fight dps is what's important, not how well you can tunnel a boss. Seriously, this is the most petty class balancing complaint I've ever heard, and I've heard some petty ones. You think that Havoc deserves a buff because on boss damage (or single target which is not it's niche) it's the bottom class, but is middle of the pack when it comes to specs and remember, we're in an expansion where dps are more locked into their spec than ever before due to artifacts.

Single target damage is THE most imporant metric when it comes to a DPS spec and boss damage is the best benchmark there is for ST damage. So yeah, it kind of matters.

[Vynny]

Single target damage is THE most imporant metric when it comes to a DPS spec and boss damage is the best benchmark there is for ST damage. So yeah, it kind of matters.

Not it isn't. You can count on one single hand the number of fights in WoW where single target DPS has been the end all be all of the encounter. By that, I mean fights where the most important thing for DPS was their single target damage potential as opposed to things like survivability, mobility, cleave damage potential, AoE damage potential, or target switching ability. Besides that, DH have decent single target damage potential and amazing cleave and AoE damage potential.

Look at locks where demo has similar single target damage potential, but bad AoE or cleave potential, destro with good cleave potential, but terrible single target potential, and mediocre AoE potential, or aff with awful single target potential, mediocre cleave potential, and good AoE potential. I'm sure they'd love it if they had more than one niche per spec or were at least average outside of their niche.

Look at druids where feral has great single target potential, mediocre cleave potential (at best), and horrendous AoE potential, or Boomkin where they're just average in all scenarios. Wouldn't it be nice if they had your problem of being average outside of your niche and top tier inside of it.

Look at Warrior where arms is average on single target, top tier on cleave, and average on AoE while fury is subpar at everything. Wouldn't is be great if arms warrior had their AoE bumped up so that they were at least on par with DH's when it comes to overall performance.

Look at DK who are only in the top tier on Il'gynoth as unholy while DH's are in the top tier on 4 fights out of 7. I'm sure that they'd love to be able to pull top tier dps on 4/7 fights rather than being stuck in the middle to bottom range.

But nope, DH's need a buff. Why? Because they're only top tier on 4/7 bosses and bottom tier on 1. That's just terrible. How do they even get by being so undertuned, am I right?

[nurden]

well i want a buff. Even tho i am #1 on Ilginoth dmg done to heart. But i absolutely fall behind on fight like ursoc, where our mobility is not that helpful. U can see my logs if u copy paste Нурдин on warcraftlogs

[FobManX]

well i want a buff. Even tho i am #1 on Ilginoth dmg done to heart. But i absolutely fall behind on fight like ursoc, where our mobility is not that helpful. U can see my logs if u copy paste Нурдин on warcraftlogs

Yeah I typically do very well vs. Ilgynoth on boss damage too. I think its because it syncs up perfectly with Meta/CB. Its the one fight where the longer CD but longer duration CD actually benefits us.

I suck ass at Ursoc. Feels like my uptime is just crap. Might be because of just how slow our tanks are at moving him out of the big void zone.

[Moozart]

I am not trying to skew anything. I was very upfront when I said that the class, not the spec is at the bottom. Demon Hunters only have one spec and for it to be lower than ANY other class doesn't seem justified.

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Last overall as a class, not a spec. Every other class has a spec option to choose from that can do better than any (only one) spec that Demon Hunter's have. For example a Frost DK does worse, but they can switch to Unholy and outdps a Havoc DH.

Ret pally and Monk cant seem to find their other dps spec you are talking about

[Shibito]

Sad too see but expectedly havoc turned into the class the lesser skilled people of wow turned too