[Legion - 7.2] Not's Demonology Guide

[Woz]

Hmm, I may have spoken too soon about stat weights.

Not - do you know if importing from the Simcraft addon gives the accurate results? Since it's missing quite a lot from the .simc that gets imported from the armory import function.
I mean, the Simcraft addon string merely contains gear, talents and artifact. It contains no actions. Are these added automatically anyway?

If so, I do indeed get haste > int (1.10 to 1) at my haste level (34,5%)

If so, I apologize for potential misinformation whoever may have read it. I didn't know that it was still bugged.

Just import one of the default profiles and replace the gear and info section at the top (might also have to manually add ilevel=xxx to the artifact weapons).

[Lucrece]

There's so much wrong in this attempt at overviewing the "viability" of specs in 5man content right now...
Demo beats Destro on mass AoE by 200-400k DPS unless the Destro lock has Feretory and/or goes zero ST max AOE talents, it also beats Destro on single target by 50-150k. 2 target cleave is where Destruction obviously beats Demo by a mile, carrying enough to have more overall DPS on 3 target cleave most likely. The choice between Destruction and Demo is made not in 5mans however, since the other weapon will most likely lag behind by a lot because the 2 specs share BiS relics(Wild Imp damage = Immolate crit chance).
Compared to other classes: Demo is on par with the very common 13-trait BM on AoE as well as with MM and Outlaw barring 6buffs. It does lose on ST to MM and WW, but unless you're doing very very low M+ dungeons, the sustained DPS of Demo will outshine the burst-then-nothing DPS of Fire.
The target swap is undoubtedly weaker than a lot of other specs', but it's not at all terrible with demonbolt and then Implosion if something really needs to die right now.

In my experience, Fire Mage and WW straight up instant-wipe your group unless they are being very careful(and therefore do fuck all) because it is very hard for them to avoid killing off lower HP adds in big mob packs. Warp Shades in Arcway with 15 bolstering buffs from Mana Wyrms are not a very pleasant experience I can tell you...
Always targeting the highest HP mob in a pack and having TKC to equalize bigger differences in %HP then having finishing power IN AOE with Implosion has proven extremely useful, a lot more useful than the chaotic nature of Fire Mage AOE for example. Granted this is rather specific to Bolstering, but even outside of this week, unless you're doing very low M+ content, the mobs that matter definitely live long enough for Implosion to be top-tier AOE. It needs setup, but in challenging content, you will have the time for that very setup.

Well, yeah, we're assuming destro on an optimized aoe spec. Why would I bring destro as a half assed hybrid when its ST is obviously inferior to demo?

That'd be like hopping on my Havoc demonhunter and then deciding I'm going to substitute Bloodlet or Fel Barrage for Felblade or Chaos Blades to up my ST. They're not bringing a havoc DH for ST.

[jojoushi]

Just noticed my Deadly Grace damage was way lower than other casters in my raid. Is it supposed to be that way since most of our damage comes from pets or am I doing something wrong ?

[Woz]

Just noticed my Deadly Grace damage was way lower than other casters in my raid. Is it supposed to be that way since most of our damage comes from pets or am I doing something wrong ?

Yes, that's why it is how it is.

[Rorixis]

I've started to face the haste "wall" at 35%+ haste where the stat weights dramatically drops for haste - I'm wondering what this means for the haste procs from Chrono Shard and Suramar set - I see that Chrono Shard is still used in the 865 BiS sim at 11,8k haste (36%) but I assume the world quest trinket with haste stat stick won't be useful if you are already at 35%+ compared to a proc trinket? (not that I have one atm)

[Deleted]

Hmm, I may have spoken too soon about stat weights.

Not - do you know if importing from the Simcraft addon gives the accurate results? Since it's missing quite a lot from the .simc that gets imported from the armory import function.
I mean, the Simcraft addon string merely contains gear, talents and artifact. It contains no actions. Are these added automatically anyway?

If so, I do indeed get haste > int (1.10 to 1) at my haste level (34,5%)

If so, I apologize for potential misinformation whoever may have read it. I didn't know that it was still bugged.

It doenst change our previous discussion though..i think at least. At 35% around haste (using the armory import function) i was getting haste>Int only if i simed without BL. Checking Bl on the buffs dropped haste to much. If you find any conclusions on this plz do say, i am curious too.

[Woz]

It doenst change our previous discussion though..i think at least. At 35% around haste (using the armory import function) i was getting haste>Int only if i simed without BL. Checking Bl on the buffs dropped haste to much. If you find any conclusions on this plz do say, i am curious too.

I really don't know where you guys are getting these imaginary plateaus....My character currently has 39.75% Haste and with BL I get:



Without BL I get:



So......yeah.....pretty sure your character isn't importing properly.

[Deleted]

I really don't know where you guys are getting these imaginary plateaus....My character currently has 39.75% Haste and with BL I get:



Without BL I get:



So......yeah.....pretty sure your character isn't importing properly.

That's similar to what I get as well, now that I knew about the Simcraft addon.

Could you enlighten us on what you sim for btw? Is this Patchwerk, Light/Heavy Movement etc?

[Woz]

That's similar to what I get as well, now that I knew about the Simcraft addon.

Could you enlighten us on what you sim for btw? Is this Patchwerk, Light/Heavy Movement etc?

Patchwerk 1 target

[ThePhantombox]

Yeah I'm getting the same problem, I ran of bunch of sims with different gear and shit and while I'm not at my home computer and can't post screencaps, I'm sitting at around 36% haste and was pretty consistently getting something like Int: 1.1 and Haste: 0.7. I was importing my character from the armory.

[davidorion]

It doenst change our previous discussion though..i think at least. At 35% around haste (using the armory import function) i was getting haste>Int only if i simed without BL. Checking Bl on the buffs dropped haste to much. If you find any conclusions on this plz do say, i am curious too.

I was having similar results (Haste dropping to last after around 41%) to what you and others have been mentioning while using the SimCraft version 703-03 build. As soon as I downloaded version 703-04, Haste has remained the #1 stat no matter how high I push it. Perhaps it is a problem with the older version of the SimCraft software itself?

[Mongosaurus]

I really don't know where you guys are getting these imaginary plateaus....My character currently has 39.75% Haste and with BL I get:



Without BL I get:



So......yeah.....pretty sure your character isn't importing properly.

Admittedly I am still a noob at simming. But last week I was going to question the fact that the front page still shows haste then crit as a priority.

I was ending up with similar results to you above and questioning why versatility/mastery were higher. My napkin math had mastery over crit already.

Does crit lose value as we already give crit thought traits to our imps/DS? I felt like crit lost some value after a point (admittedly I don't know what that is) and the flat damage from versatility/mastery seemed like a good option.

Plus haste/crit gear has been tough to find to even try it out. Although crit doom + doom doubled + 30%+ doom damage is very nice.

Also, I hate that I cannot get a single +imp damage relic the one time one dropped blizzard blocked the trade because it was an upgrade for the other guy (who was trying to give it to me)

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm getting the same problem, I ran of bunch of sims with different gear and shit and while I'm not at my home computer and can't post screencaps, I'm sitting at around 36% haste and was pretty consistently getting something like Int: 1.1 and Haste: 0.7. I was importing my character from the armory.

Int 1.1? If that is the case, then I'm pretty sure something is bugged, shouldn't int always be 1.0? I mean, I'm assuming you are using normalized values, and isn't int what it normalizes around?

[Woz]

Yeah I'm getting the same problem, I ran of bunch of sims with different gear and shit and while I'm not at my home computer and can't post screencaps, I'm sitting at around 36% haste and was pretty consistently getting something like Int: 1.1 and Haste: 0.7. I was importing my character from the armory.

If you're importing from Armory you have to manually add your weapon ilevel, known issue.

Admittedly I am still a noob at simming. But last week I was going to question the fact that the front page still shows haste then crit as a priority.

I was ending up with similar results to you above and questioning why versatility/mastery were higher. My napkin math had mastery over crit already.

Does crit lose value as we already give crit thought traits to our imps/DS? I felt like crit lost some value after a point (admittedly I don't know what that is) and the flat damage from versatility/mastery seemed like a good option.

Plus haste/crit gear has been tough to find to even try it out. Although crit doom + doom doubled + 30%+ doom damage is very nice.

Also, I hate that I cannot get a single +imp damage relic the one time one dropped blizzard blocked the trade because it was an upgrade for the other guy (who was trying to give it to me)

I have more Crit than other secondaries so it just wants to balance them out, especially on Single Target. 2+ targets Crit is superior in all ways.

[ThePhantombox]

Int 1.1? If that is the case, then I'm pretty sure something is bugged, shouldn't int always be 1.0? I mean, I'm assuming you are using normalized values, and isn't int what it normalizes around?

Could be me mis-remembering, it probably was 1.0, but my point was haste seemed way too low.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're importing from Armory you have to manually add your weapon ilevel, known issue.

Noted. I'll try that today, thanks.

[Liirin]

So I am a noob as I have never changed weapon ilvl in simcraft, how do you do that? Is it like spell id changes or something else I am missing?

[Deleted]

I really don't know where you guys are getting these imaginary plateaus....My character currently has 39.75% Haste and with BL I get:



Without BL I get:



So......yeah.....pretty sure your character isn't importing properly.

Regarding the "imaginary" plateaus....

sim result with patchwerk 1 target 10000 iterations:



http://imgur.com/bzqm6U3

Simcraft import doesn't import weapon ilevel, and doesn't import relics, so I put it in manually.

I'm running with 2 WQ haste trinkets, 850 haste and 835 haste with socket.

profile below:

talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#VZ!1100121
artifact=37:0:0:0:0:1170:1:1171:3:1173:3:1174:3:1176:4:1177:5:1178:3:1179:2:1180:1:1181:1: 1182:1:1183:1:1185:1:1354:1
spec=demonology

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.
actions.precombat=flask,type=whispered_pact
actions.precombat+=/food,type=azshari_salad
actions.precombat+=/summon_pet,if=!talent.grimoire_of_supremacy.enabled&(!talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled |buff.demonic_power.down)
actions.precombat+=/summon_infernal,if=talent.grimoire_of_supremacy.enabled&artifact.lord_of_flames.rank>0
actions.precombat+=/summon_infernal,if=talent.grimoire_of_supremacy.enabled&active_enemies>=3
actions.precombat+=/summon_doomguard,if=talent.grimoire_of_supremacy.enabled&active_enemies<3&artifact.lord_of _flames.rank=0
actions.precombat+=/augmentation,type=defiled
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=deadly_grace
actions.precombat+=/demonic_empowerment
actions.precombat+=/demonbolt,if=talent.demonbolt.enabled
actions.precombat+=/shadow_bolt,if=!talent.demonbolt.enabled

# Executed every time the actor is available.
actions=implosion,if=wild_imp_remaining_duration<=action.shadow_bolt.execute_time&buff.dem onic_synergy.remains
actions+=/implosion,if=prev_gcd.hand_of_guldan&wild_imp_remaining_duration<=3&buff.demonic_synergy.r emains
actions+=/implosion,if=wild_imp_count<=4&wild_imp_remaining_duration<=action.shadow_bolt.execute_tim e&spell_targets.implosion>1
actions+=/implosion,if=prev_gcd.hand_of_guldan&wild_imp_remaining_duration<=4&spell_targets.implosio n>2
actions+=/shadowflame,if=debuff.shadowflame.stack>0&remains<action.shadow_bolt.cast_time+travel_time
actions+=/service_pet,if=cooldown.summon_doomguard.remains<=gcd&soul_shard>=2
actions+=/service_pet,if=cooldown.summon_doomguard.remains>25
actions+=/summon_doomguard,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled&prev.service_felguard&spell_targets .infernal_awakening<3
actions+=/summon_doomguard,if=talent.grimoire_of_synergy.enabled&spell_targets.infernal_awakening<3
actions+=/summon_infernal,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled&prev.service_felguard&spell_targets. infernal_awakening>=3
actions+=/summon_infernal,if=talent.grimoire_of_synergy.enabled&spell_targets.infernal_awakening>=3
actions+=/call_dreadstalkers,if=!talent.summon_darkglare.enabled&(spell_targets.implosion<3|!talent. implosion.enabled)
actions+=/hand_of_guldan,if=soul_shard>=4&!talent.summon_darkglare.enabled
actions+=/summon_darkglare,if=prev_gcd.hand_of_guldan
actions+=/summon_darkglare,if=prev_gcd.call_dreadstalkers
actions+=/summon_darkglare,if=cooldown.call_dreadstalkers.remains>5&soul_shard<3
actions+=/summon_darkglare,if=cooldown.call_dreadstalkers.remains<=action.summon_darkglare.cast_time &soul_shard>=3
actions+=/summon_darkglare,if=cooldown.call_dreadstalkers.remains<=action.summon_darkglare.cast_time &soul_shard>=1&buff.demonic_calling.react
actions+=/call_dreadstalkers,if=talent.summon_darkglare.enabled&(spell_targets.implosion<3|!talent.i mplosion.enabled)&cooldown.summon_darkglare.remains>2
actions+=/call_dreadstalkers,if=talent.summon_darkglare.enabled&(spell_targets.implosion<3|!talent.i mplosion.enabled)&prev_gcd.summon_darkglare
actions+=/call_dreadstalkers,if=talent.summon_darkglare.enabled&(spell_targets.implosion<3|!talent.i mplosion.enabled)&cooldown.summon_darkglare.remains<=action.call_dreadstalkers.cast_time&s oul_shard>=3
actions+=/call_dreadstalkers,if=talent.summon_darkglare.enabled&(spell_targets.implosion<3|!talent.i mplosion.enabled)&cooldown.summon_darkglare.remains<=action.call_dreadstalkers.cast_time&s oul_shard>=1&buff.demonic_calling.react
actions+=/hand_of_guldan,if=soul_shard>=3&prev_gcd.call_dreadstalkers
actions+=/hand_of_guldan,if=soul_shard>=5&cooldown.summon_darkglare.remains<=action.hand_of_guldan.c ast_time
actions+=/hand_of_guldan,if=soul_shard>=4&cooldown.summon_darkglare.remains>2
actions+=/demonic_empowerment,if=wild_imp_no_de>3|prev_gcd.hand_of_guldan
actions+=/demonic_empowerment,if=dreadstalker_no_de>0|darkglare_no_de>0|doomguard_no_de>0|infernal_n o_de>0|service_no_de>0
actions+=/felguard:felstorm
actions+=/doom,cycle_targets=1,if=!talent.hand_of_doom.enabled&target.time_to_die>duration&(!ticking |remains<duration*0.3)
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/soul_harvest
actions+=/potion,name=deadly_grace,if=buff.soul_harvest.remains|target.time_to_die<=45|trinket.proc. any.react
actions+=/shadowflame,if=charges=2
actions+=/thalkiels_consumption,if=(dreadstalker_remaining_duration>execute_time|talent.implosion.en abled&spell_targets.implosion>=3)&wild_imp_count>3&wild_imp_remaining_duration>execute_tim e
actions+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<=30
actions+=/demonwrath,chain=1,interrupt=1,if=spell_targets.demonwrath>=3
actions+=/demonwrath,moving=1,chain=1,interrupt=1
actions+=/demonbolt
actions+=/shadow_bolt
actions+=/life_tap

head=celestially_aligned_hood,id=139188,bonus_id=1805/1487
neck=pendant_of_the_watchful_eye,id=137536,bonus_id=3411/1512/3337,enchant=mark_of_the_hidden_satyr
shoulders=slipstream_shoulderpads,id=137309,bonus_id=1727/1808/1492/1813,gems=150haste
back=evergreen_vinewrap_drape,id=139248,bonus_id=1805/1487,enchant=200int
chest=fluxflow_robes,id=134413,bonus_id=3414/1512/3336
wrists=imbued_silkweave_bracers,id=127002,bonus_id=689/1696/3408/601/669
hands=inksmudged_handwraps,id=134421,bonus_id=3413/1808/1502/1813,gems=150haste
waist=roggthread_cord,id=134171,bonus_id=1727/40/1502/1813
legs=riverrider_legwraps,id=134427,bonus_id=3414/1507/1813
feet=mistbound_helarjar_footwraps,id=133608,bonus_id=1727/1808/41/1492/1813,gems=150haste
finger1=wilfreds_sigil_of_superior_summoning,id=132369,bonus_id=1811,gems=150haste,enchant =150haste
finger2=frans_intractable_loop,id=141582,bonus_id=1808/1497,gems=150haste,enchant=150haste
trinket1=huge_roggstone,id=134160,bonus_id=3397/604/1512/3337
trinket2=nightmare_bloom,id=121311,bonus_id=3397/1808/604/1492/1675,gems=150haste
main_hand=spine_of_thalkiel,id=137246,ilevel=888
off_hand=skull_of_the_manari,id=128943,bonus_id=748,relic_id=3416:1522:3336/1727:1492:1813/3415:1522:3337/0,ilevel=888

# Gear Summary
# gear_ilvl=856.94
# gear_stamina=20776
# gear_intellect=13761
# gear_spell_power=10587
# gear_crit_rating=2276
# gear_haste_rating=12873
# gear_mastery_rating=4268
# gear_versatility_rating=269
# gear_leech_rating=404
# gear_avoidance_rating=404
# gear_armor=1641
default_pet=felguard

so you can see all is in order.
if I swap out even 1 trinket and replace it with 840 Chronoshard then haste gets above INT with value 12.xx

so there is an "imaginary" plateau and for me it's around 40% haste.

[Deleted]

..........

What version of SimCraft are you using? i am wondering if its the case Davidorion mentioned, and its just a buged (not working right) version. That big shift of Haste weight (like if you lose 800 haste it suddenly becomes more important than intellect from beeing last stat) suggests a pretty big breakpoint. Which imo isnt justified by the spec mechanics. Thats what started me wondering in the first place .Nots results seem much more logical. I also tryed to sim his character (import from armory) and i get similar results (Haste being best secondary by not much, but far below Int).
So definitely smthings wrong and i am gonna figure out soon what it is. Just need to get some free time from work

Edit: Thats why i brought the BL argument. Siming without BL gave me logical results, haste didnt drop below int, neither did it have a huge weight shift. With Bl i get similar results as yours. So if something is messy with the version i have (not home atm to check) i would point there

[Deleted]

Hi Woz

Just wanted to say - i switched to implosion a couple of weeks ago and it's just batshit insane - both single target and aoe. I feel like it just doesn't compare to before - at the loss of 1 GCD i am dealing massive damage now in any situation, burst and sustained. Just wanted to let you know and maybe try to adjust the guide somehow ? I don't know - i feel like too few people know about this and are still complaining about our DPS. Which can be amazing - i know mine is.

[Deleted]

What version of SimCraft are you using? i am wondering if its the case Davidorion mentioned, and its just a buged (not working right) version. That big shift of Haste weight (like if you lose 800 haste it suddenly becomes more important than intellect from beeing last stat) suggests a pretty big breakpoint. Which imo isnt justified by the spec mechanics. Thats what started me wondering in the first place .Nots results seem much more logical. I also tryed to sim his character (import from armory) and i get similar results (Haste being best secondary by not much, but far below Int).
So definitely smthings wrong and i am gonna figure out soon what it is. Just need to get some free time from work

Edit: Thats why i brought the BL argument. Siming without BL gave me logical results, haste didnt drop below int, neither did it have a huge weight shift. With Bl i get similar results as yours. So if something is messy with the version i have (not home atm to check) i would point there

When I'm siming I always download latest build from http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/ those results I get with all the builds in last 7-8 days (all sims after demo got boosted)