I'm sorry but not being able to do the two Artifact Quests in LFR is bullshit.

[Snuffleupagus]

I feel like you're intentionally missing my point now. Grouped PvE gets you all said artifact colors, whereas Group PvP is not required for their skins. I can't put it more simply than that.

PVE is large and variee enough that it has to be segmented.

PVP is small and homogeneous enough that it has to be merged.

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Oh yeah actually.. I forgot about the ones where you did DHT and Eye I think, been a long time since I completed that part. Well after those they basically tell you to wait for Nighthold, so it'll take a while before we see anyone with that skin.

Maybe Blizz will make some changes during that time, I think this specific appearance unlock is kinda badly designed anyway, 2 of the color tints is locked behind dungeon content (glory of the legion hero and lv.15 keystone) yet you can't use them before unlocking the default one which requires you to clear 2 legion raids multiple times. I thought mythic+ dungeons were supposed to be an alternative to raiding in the first place.

Mythic+ is an alternative for gearing up.

[Ravex]

Well I'm starting to think after seeing the more of the quest line that it should just remain as it. There is 5th skin that probably won't require organized raiding since the current one goes till nighthold and there is also the hidden skins which are some of the best. Plus they probably will add more as the expansion progress' so it's not like their isn't options out there that are less time consuming.

If all 4 tints of the skin were locked to different things to do in normal + raiding I'd be 100% on board with it being locked to it no questions asked.

It's the other tints that don't require you to raid that sends a very mixed signal.

[Snuffleupagus]

No his opinion is worthless because....

1) He doesn't work for blizzard.
2) At the time he did, he did not speak for everyone at blizzard.
3) He was NOT the only one who designed LFR. It Took a team to Design it not just him.

I would but I am disabled so ya. Also I have never said raiders are losers who take the game to serious.

If your going to talk on a forum maybe you should know how to read.

If you're playing WoW and getting the achievements for M+15 (which I doubt), then there is work available that you can do instead of wasting your life away.

And if you don't understand that being design lead means you control the design, I don't know what to say.

[xChurch]

PVE is large and variee enough that it has to be segmented.

PVP is small and homogeneous enough that it has to be merged.

Except PvE isn't segmented, there is only the pve raid one and the pvp one. They shouldn't have slacked on the skins but perhaps that was more cautionary than anything else.

[Bridius]

If LFR didn't exist I wouldn't be playing WoW anymore, as long as the story ends in a raid.

Well do you have social anxiety? Then I understand your argument, but the problem is this is a very social game in most aspects.

If you just run heroic dungeon queues with anonymous people, eventually you will have a good enough iLvl to pug a Normal raid. It may take a while. But once you get there, Normal raids are very easy and made for the sort of people that don't have time for raiding with a guild.

They are very pug friendly.

If you're afraid to apply to groups, ask a friend to apply with you as a group of two with him as the leader. He can do all the talking/negotiating. You can also find a group that does not use voice chat.

[Snuffleupagus]

Except PvE isn't segmented, there is only the pve raid one and the pvp one. They shouldn't have slacked on the skins but perhaps that was more cautionary than anything else.

That I certainly agree with. Their segmentation for rewards is very inconsistent, but the response shouldn't be "give us what they have!", but rather "give us our own rewards to work towards!"

[Mandible]

I completely agree some sort of LFR needs to be in the game.
But just like ghostcrawler says, not the version that is a faceroll, people afk and bosses hit like kittens.

More of a group finder with a raid leader that can kick people, like he said, would be much better to maintain the epicnees of raiding.

Yes ... because we have never seen people be assholes and kick people for absolutely no reason.

[Snuffleupagus]

Yes ... because we have never seen people be assholes and kick people for absolutely no reason.

We've also never had things like forced personal loot for non-guild groups.

About the only thing that needs to be done for PUGs now is to disable removing people from group while an encounter is in progress.

If the Group Finder tool was properly overhauled, and Blizzard found a commodity like M+ keystones for raids, LFR would basically be redundant, and they could rework it into single player scenarios that could be used for story only (i.e. no drops, more cinematic in experience).

Take people who don't want to raid out of the equation but give them the story.

[bufferunderrun]

LFR was not as trivial as it is now on launch.

It was nerfed because LFR heroes complained very loudly on the forums about how they couldn't clear sub-normal level content even with Tier and trinkets.

FFXIV has a different playerbase and is therefore irrelevant to your point. WoW has a much wider scope of skill levels and therefore tries to cater to them all. Allowing N+ to be queued in WoW does little more than invite forum QQ when entitled crybabies queue up and find themselves destroyed by mechanics (see: Cata heroics, LFR SoO before nerfs).

Despite people stroking their egos by saying N EN is cake, even Nythendra would block a lot of players found in LFR. Rot pools can be tanked fior a fair duration by DPS in LFR and therefore positioning in LFR is pointless. Good luck with that on any other mode without massively outgearing the fight.

Rehashing the same tired points and dismissing what actually happened with a "nope" is getting tired. Stop dismissing reality.

The fact that some peoples had gone on the forum and cry is not a justification, i can reassure you that FFXIV has the exact same reaction to hard bosses, some peoples go to the forum and cry, you can verify it ourselves by going to the forum and check the qq thread.

The second point is the percentage of success in cata heroic and lfr soo to my experience was not bad, maybe i was lucky and find group that were able to use their hands who know.

[Snuffleupagus]

The fact that some peoples had gone on the forum and cry is not a justification, i can reassure you that FFXIV has the exact same reaction to hard bosses, some peoples go to the forum and cry, you can verify it ourselves by going to the forum and check the qq thread.

The second point is the percentage of success in cata heroic and lfr soo to my experience was not bad, maybe i was lucky and find group that were able to use their hands who know.

You are providing nothing new here, just your opinions and assertions.

Blizzard has data showing that people would leave on difficult bosses, resulting in a cycle of new people every (roughly) 3 or so wipes. The lack of a leader and ability to call the raid is what contributed to this. You can't have a system where endless wipes occur on queued content because then Blizzard has to take ownership of the matchmaking system and try to assign rankings to PVE players.

As much as you'd like to think so, WoW and FFXIV are not the same. The playerbase is not the same.

QQ may exist in every game, but you fail to address the point that WoW has a much larger scope of skill levels.

And quite frankly, this is getting off topic. The thread is not about whether or not LFR should exist, it is about whether or not rewards for non-queueable content should be available to people who refuse to participate in said content.

The answer is no.

[Deleted]

You are providing nothing new here, just your opinions and assertions.

Blizzard has data showing that people would leave on difficult bosses, resulting in a cycle of new people every (roughly) 3 or so wipes. The lack of a leader and ability to call the raid is what contributed to this. You can't have a system where endless wipes occur on queued content because then Blizzard has to take ownership of the matchmaking system and try to assign rankings to PVE players.

As much as you'd like to think so, WoW and FFXIV are not the same. The playerbase is not the same.

QQ may exist in every game, but you fail to address the point that WoW has a much larger scope of skill levels.

And quite frankly, this is getting off topic. The thread is not about whether or not LFR should exist, it is about whether or not rewards for non-queueable content should be available to people who refuse to participate in said content.

The answer is no.

This is still a bad approach to the whole thing. See, even if I don't get the skin because I will never do enough EN normal PUGs to loot all 30 fragments - ok. I can live with that.

But I will be perfectly fine with doing all world bosses eventually, and I will not be able to use this skin, because it is locked behind one with a higher organisational effort.

This is logically wrong. The first step on a new tier should be the easiest one. Since they are all time consuming, the least organisational effort should be the defining criterium. (And since you can even participate in a kill of a world boss without being in a raid due to new tagging mechanics, this is definitively the skin with a lesser organisational effort.)

[Deleted]

Yes ... because we have never seen people be assholes and kick people for absolutely no reason.

A decent raid needs a leader who can kick AFK'ers and people playing like a 10 year old child.
Otherwise it's impossible to clear a "normal" raid.

LFR is so easy that requires nothing...and i see no reason for a skin on this environment.
There is already Tiers, set bonus, trinkets...too much stuff.

[Fenixhart]

At this rate the only solace is that later on in the expansion when it comes to the "Timeless Isle/Tanan Jungle" phase where they throw Decently powered gear around like dollar bills at a strip club getting groups that are more lenient will be easier.

Then you can just stomp-farm it into the ground like it was LFR

That's really the only silver lining I can see from this-that it's the entry-level raid and thus will be zergable at some point.

[xpose]

At this rate the only solace is that later on in the expansion when it comes to the "Timeless Isle/Tanan Jungle" phase where they throw Decently powered gear around like dollar bills at a strip club getting groups that are more lenient will be easier.

Then you can just stomp-farm it into the ground like it was LFR

That's really the only silver lining I can see from this-that it's the entry-level raid and thus will be zergable at some point.

It will be zergable when NH comes out and people eventually are 50+ilvl ahead of the raid.


LFR should not reward any unique awards at all, being able to ignore every boss mechanic except for the one that instantly kills you and just tank and spanking the rest is a joke. Suramar dailies are harder than LFR.

The LFR babies will eventually get it when farm groups start forming next year but at the moment suck it up because guess what. EN isn't the only raid you're going to have to do to get it.

[FelPlague]

I feel like you're intentionally missing my point now. Grouped PvE gets you all said artifact colors, whereas Group PvP is not required for their skins. I can't put it more simply than that.

thing is, if you want to get the pvp skin in any timly manor, you have to do group pvp, as you get MUCH MUCH more, and i rather do something like 80 rated battlegrounds, then 800 normal battlegrounds...

[Eveningforest]

thing is, if you want to get the pvp skin in any timly manor, you have to do group pvp, as you get MUCH MUCH more, and i rather do something like 80 rated battlegrounds, then 800 normal battlegrounds...

The point you keep on missing is that it IS possible to get these skins without RBGs. What YOU prefer or how long YOU think it should take is irrelevant.

[FelPlague]

The point you keep on missing is that it IS possible to get these skins without RBGs. What YOU prefer or how long YOU think it should take is irrelevant.

and its possible to get these pve skins without a group, just come back later when the raid is soloable

[Glorious Leader]

and its possible to get these pve skins without a group, just come back later when the raid is soloable

Thats all you can do really. It wont take very long given the gross ilvl inflation but it really does undermine their vision for this.

[Snuffleupagus]

This is still a bad approach to the whole thing. See, even if I don't get the skin because I will never do enough EN normal PUGs to loot all 30 fragments - ok. I can live with that.

But I will be perfectly fine with doing all world bosses eventually, and I will not be able to use this skin, because it is locked behind one with a higher organisational effort.

This is logically wrong. The first step on a new tier should be the easiest one. Since they are all time consuming, the least organisational effort should be the defining criterium. (And since you can even participate in a kill of a world boss without being in a raid due to new tagging mechanics, this is definitively the skin with a lesser organisational effort.)

Organised PVE. This has been discussed to death.

If you honestly think world bosses are going down without groups, go tank one without a healer.

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The point you keep on missing is that it IS possible to get these skins without RBGs. What YOU prefer or how long YOU think it should take is irrelevant.

Doesn't matter. Blizzard has stated that they want to reward organised PVE.

Ask for a LFR/LFG model instead of this entitlement. You wonder why raiders are so hostile to LFR heroes and in the same breath ask Blizzard to devalue all rewards.

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Thats all you can do really. It wont take very long given the gross ilvl inflation but it really does undermine their vision for this.

Yeah, you're not soloing Normal EN this expansion.

Good luck meeting the Ursoc DPS check. Or surviving a 30 second stun on Dragons. Or meeting the enrage timer on your own for Nythendra. Or tanking adds on Elerethe. Or the adds on Il'gynoth. Or Cenarius' adds. Or Xavius without dispels.

And Blizzard have hinted that artifsct skins will be Legion only.

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A decent raid needs a leader who can kick AFK'ers and people playing like a 10 year old child.
Otherwise it's impossible to clear a "normal" raid.

LFR is so easy that requires nothing...and i see no reason for a skin on this environment.
There is already Tiers, set bonus, trinkets...too much stuff.

Except the ability to be removed for playing badly is why these people avoid pugs.

[bufferunderrun]

You are providing nothing new here, just your opinions and assertions.

Blizzard has data showing that people would leave on difficult bosses, resulting in a cycle of new people every (roughly) 3 or so wipes. The lack of a leader and ability to call the raid is what contributed to this. You can't have a system where endless wipes occur on queued content because then Blizzard has to take ownership of the matchmaking system and try to assign rankings to PVE players.

As much as you'd like to think so, WoW and FFXIV are not the same. The playerbase is not the same.

QQ may exist in every game, but you fail to address the point that WoW has a much larger scope of skill levels.

And quite frankly, this is getting off topic. The thread is not about whether or not LFR should exist, it is about whether or not rewards for non-queueable content should be available to people who refuse to participate in said content.

The answer is no.

we are not off topic the reason peoples put forward of why lfr shouldn't have rewards is because it's easy and the fact that blizzard keep it easy is because those who use it couldn't handle something more challenging, and i strongly disagree with this notion and have given those peoples examples of another game who has auto-matchmaking for difficult content and the sky isn't falling.

But i still suspect that is not the real reason of why peoples is glade blizzard isn't putting any reward into lfr, imho the real reason is the fear that the enormous participation could crush the guilds and pug system.