So this is the answer we got, and what are we going to do?!?!?!

[Deleted]

heroic. lawl.

[Deleted]

Dude what are you talking about? Unholy is fine, its actually VERY strong compared to others,

This is one of the reasons we will stay in the gutter.

We need a common front, not all this white noise that is easily shot down with evidence

[Deleted]

Just not sure how they are going to do the buffs, im in a 7/7 mythic guild and im disappointed with my dps on most fights, im doing the best i can with what i have (no bracers) i see alot of people making mistakes but still beating me due to class, but while in mythic + dungeons im crushing it being top on most trash pulls and bosses, especially first and last boss with army up, so if they do buff us it will make us even stronger in 5mans.

[Pepehands]

This is one of the reasons we will stay in the gutter.

We need a common front, not all this white noise that is easily shot down with evidence

That is exactly the point of this tread! I was hopping for once we could get together and even if you think DK is fine, just go there and make alot of noise.

Instead, we are keeping lying that DK is fine. No, its not! Even if it is fine, why would you not want some changes for better?!

Lets say the DPS is fine (which is not), would you be mad if they fixed WW so you can use it with another glyph instead only that one that make you walk and jump, which this spell should do in first place?

[drbatman]

Dude what are you talking about? Unholy is fine, its actually VERY strong compared to others

You must play with BAD dps to think that. If I raid with my buddies casual guild I CRUSH the dmg meters. If I play with my guild, I have to push VERY hard to get top5, and that doesnt always happen.

Unholy is still playable sure, but Mythic guilds are already benching DK's because we cant compete.

Scaling is the problem, at launch we were OK our artifact is a pretty front loaded weapon in the trait department, now ilvls are going up and just about every other class is pulling ahead while dk's aren't because we don't scale well. and that my friend will only get worse.

[Adlian]

Gonna post my thoughts here too:

When Legion were introduced for the first time, Blizzard clearly stated that the class fantasy of Death Knight is a heavy armored knight that moves slow across the battlefield and does a lot of damage.

First issue - Movement

So far the first statement is quite true - Death Knights are slow, quite slow actually, Wraith Walk is our only way of "quick movement" but its quite buggy and often getting stuck in stairs or any bumpy objects on the ground (even with the glyph). When its on cooldown i feel like a snail, my friends often make fun of me how i'm always behind everyone when we are doing a speed run but that's a different topic.

My solution here is to replace Wraith Walk with WoD's Death's Advance. 10 - 15% passive movement speed and 30% when activated. 30 seconds cooldown. Think this will solve some of the movement issues.

Second issue - Damage

So the Death Knight class fantasy was saying that we are a slow moving knights, doing a lot of damage and being hard to kill - from my personal experience and checking the logs, DKs are doing pretty mediocre in everything. AOE and Single target damage lack quite behind everyone with similar gear levels. Even after the recent buffs Frost DKs are lacking behind Unholy, and Unholy is lacking behind most of the classes.

Combined with the terrible mobility and survivability (no self heal unless you hit the boss) Death Knight players will have hard time getting a raid spot in progressing raid group.

Other minior issues

* Unholy abomination pet - Can you let us have a different looking pet? We all know that abominations are iconic Warcarft creatures but the current model is around 11 years old and its sticking out quite bad when a warlock come next to me with his or her shiny new updated pets.

[Dahti]

You know frost is bad for raids when you get rank 95 but are only 17 in your ilevel bracket.

Sure, I did ok damage for my raid but rank 95 for any spec shouldn't be so low...

Edit: I looked at this today and it's now 67ish for bracket, so not sure what happened

[AzrienDK]

Perhaps I am missing something but I don't read in any of those posts that DKs are fine and we aren't going to change anything on them. Just sounds like they don't have an update yet.

[Deleted]

Just not sure how they are going to do the buffs, im in a 7/7 mythic guild and im disappointed with my dps on most fights, im doing the best i can with what i have (no bracers) i see alot of people making mistakes but still beating me due to class, but while in mythic + dungeons im crushing it being top on most trash pulls and bosses, especially first and last boss with army up, so if they do buff us it will make us even stronger in 5mans.

This is honestly how I feel, however I managed to luckily snag myself a pair of the Legendary Wrists after around 300~ M+ dungeons. I honestly feel like I could play absolutely perfectly and still be disappointed by the results, the Wrists are an absolute joke (not in a bad way). I beat my earlier Mythic Ursoc parses with massive amounts of server lag & playing like a Clown (I even accidently let one of my SR's get parried!) which is just sad, I would be quite happy if they nerfed the Wrists a bit and just buffed us all around, we should NOT be balanced around a Legendary in order to compete with the middle of the pack classes.

But yea, I agree that we are really good in M+ too. I was tearing them up before I got the Wrists, but now I can just melt trash packs and be good on bosses even without Army up.

[Schizoide]

Devs have access to warcraftlogs and hopefully their own superior internal metrics. They know frost DK remains very poor, and they know the Frozen Pulse change is less of an overall buff than a QoS improvement for all combined with making Obliterate priorities competitive again.

My concern is less with the numbers-- they can and will tune numbers. The reason I don't play my DK is the incredibly poor mobility. At 100% speed it feels like I'm swimming through syrup. It's like I'm snared all the time. That's what I care about. It simply isn't fun to play.

[Derecho]

Just not sure how they are going to do the buffs, im in a 7/7 mythic guild and im disappointed with my dps on most fights, im doing the best i can with what i have (no bracers) i see alot of people making mistakes but still beating me due to class, but while in mythic + dungeons im crushing it being top on most trash pulls and bosses, especially first and last boss with army up, so if they do buff us it will make us even stronger in 5mans.

I've noticed exactly what you're saying. As a Frost DK, I'm great for Mythic+ trash cleaving. Or at least, I feel really great for it.

Any buff they give us will make that more complex, because in a 5 man setting, we're doing alright, or I feel we are. However, in raids, I feel absolutely terrible.

I think the focus really needs to be significant, single target buffs. Once that's buffed, then we can analyze where we are in both the raiding and mythic+ scene.

[Noxinator]

You know frost is bad for raids when you get rank 95 but are only 17 in your ilevel bracket.

Sure, I did ok damage for my raid but rank 95 for any spec shouldn't be so low...

Edit: I looked at this today and it's now 67ish for bracket, so not sure what happened

I always thought that the important number was the "Ilvl bracket" to the right. That it showed how you did compared to other people of your class in your item level bracket. Is that wrong? Is it every class in that item level bracket?
Is it the "rank" to the left, that is the number that I should use as a comparison to other people in my class?

[Deleted]

Recent numbers for those that care:
Heroic Emerald Nightmare, 75 Percentile, Single Target and an Add Cleave fight:

Ursoc
Frost DK: 239k avg 331k max
Unholy DK: 265k avg 404k max
Bottom Avg Frost Mage: 223k, Top Avg Enhance Shaman: 302k
Bottom Max: Afflic Lock: 304k, Top Max Shadow Priest: 559k
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...3&difficulty=4

Elereth Renferal
Frost DK: 227k avg 348k max
Unholy DK: 242k avg 415k max
Bottom Avg Frost Mage: 198k, Top Avg Marks Hunter: 274k
Bottom Max Frost Mage: 312k, Top Max Shadow Priest: 483k
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...6&difficulty=4

Showing the Min and Max for Avg DPS and Max DPS. This is to help show our scaling and how it compares to others. So Frost is in a bad, bad state, not Frost Mage bad, but pretty damn close. It's also still a chunk behind Unholy DK in average performance, and even further behind best performance. Unholy is in an OK place, it needs some buffs to combat it's poor item level scaling (switch those links to mythic logs) as others have pointed out in other threads. Frost, well, the only thing we have going for us is our extremely quick ramp up time which makes us appear as really good if you look at M+ logs.

I had 91% with unholy on Ursoc HC with 279k DPS (no bracers or anything, just stupid cloak, crap trinkets too) I would say that's not much compared to other classes ((

[Slim1256]

Just posted this in the UH DK Feedback thread on the Blizzard forums:

Back with more analysis.

The link below is to a spreadsheet that shows DPS performance, by spec, on a boss by boss basis.

It then shows how UH compares to the average and top end damage. I added Frost DKs on as well, because... why not.

As noted in the spreadsheet, this is based on Heroic EN, 90th percentile parses for the last two weeks.

docs.google.
com/spreadsheets/d/1XZGGLPj1B1cIBMTBwc2lHrBvvcst-E2r8y4RmZt0Prc

Summary
UH DKs are BAD (Below Average, in order of worst to best) on:
Xavius
Cenarius
Elerethe
Nythendra
Ursoc (!)

UH DKs are OK (Slightly above average) on:
Dragons of Nightmare

UH DKs are Good (though 60k behind the top DPS) on:
Il'gynoth

On average, UH DKs are 3k below AVERAGE on all fights.
On average, UH DKs are 54k below the Max DPS spec on all fights.

[Coldvibes]

I feel like the scaling issue might not be as pronounced after NH, due to the fact that secondary stats won't be the one inflating but primary stats will. This makes the value of our Darkest Crusade trait constantly become more valuable as time goes on.

The other problem with UH is that legendaries are too strong, and the difference between the haves and the have-nots as DKs is huge. The bracers change so much and the belt/pet ring are very sizable increases.

[drbatman]

I feel like the scaling issue might not be as pronounced after NH, due to the fact that secondary stats won't be the one inflating but primary stats will. This makes the value of our Darkest Crusade trait constantly become more valuable as time goes on.

The other problem with UH is that legendaries are too strong, and the difference between the haves and the have-nots as DKs is huge. The bracers change so much and the belt/pet ring are very sizable increases.

I agree with the first point, but time will tell.

second point I dont think is AS big as you think. I got bracers last week, they were definitely a massive upgrade. however they are not insta-godmode 400k dmg on heroic ursoc. I think all the massive dps top parses you see are RNG, we have much of it in our spec with how wounds interact on crit + bracer. Add on top of that RNG you will encounter on the fight, rot/focused gaze/purple tornadoes ect. Then add on top most of these come from top guilds pulling 3-4 min kills which skews dmg numbers significantly. fast kill + good dmg rng + good fight rng = top parses

[Grimdeeds]

Devs have access to warcraftlogs and hopefully their own superior internal metrics. They know frost DK remains very poor, and they know the Frozen Pulse change is less of an overall buff than a QoS improvement for all combined with making Obliterate priorities competitive again.

My concern is less with the numbers-- they can and will tune numbers. The reason I don't play my DK is the incredibly poor mobility. At 100% speed it feels like I'm swimming through syrup. It's like I'm snared all the time. That's what I care about. It simply isn't fun to play.

Feeling snared all the time, this is a state of mind. It takes a mental adjustment as you are playing, whatever you have to tell yourself to remember this is the current fantasy for deathknights. Personally, it did take me a bit to get used to normal run speed. Absolutely had the feeling I was being snared all the time. I got over it by reminding myself that I'm a big truck that when I arrive I do good damage. And, initially, as dungeons and raiding started, that's exactly what was happening. I'm not saying my personal experience of overcoming the loss of death's advance/unholy presence/cloak enchant works for others or even that it is the correct way to do things. But it worked for me.

However, as has been said in this thread and others, the more gear we're getting, the LESS true it is that I feel like a slow-moving hard-hitting truck. I don't pretend to understand the scaling issue or what is causing us to fall further behind but it's increasingly obvious as my raid gets more gear, I become relatively far less powerful. Instead, only the slow-moving part remains true, and that's where the slowness starts to really become unbearable, because it feels like a weakness without any path to usefulness. I get that Blizzard's philosophy is to bring about sharp distinctions in what each class's weaknesses/strengths are, but we're seeing a glaring weakness without a lot of strength to compensate in some other area. I also get that Blizzard is saying they don't want to respond to concerns about weaknesses by just shoring up that weakness by say, giving more mobility, but c'mon, we ought to have more strength in some other area as a result.

We are survivable (unholy that is, not as much frost). I have no complaints about that. We swim in excess runic power in order to death strike at least twice on short notice. Unholy's trait to reduce AoE damage taken by 15% is in my honest opinion pretty huge for PvE. And finally corpse shield as a 'oh crap' button or just a soaking option is also fairly strong. The usual suspects of anti-magic shell and to a lesser extent ice-bound fortitude are there, too. Having said that, I don't know about the rest of you, but I truly feel like the lack of mobility is such a truly damning weakness that extra survivability just doesn't cut it. I get left behind on sprints in mythic plus dungeons, I'm a liability in that sense because I might miss the elevator (vault) that everyone else made it to in time, or I might not be able to sprint past a patting mob in time like the rest of the group, or on run backs from a wipe they have to wait on me (arcway is the worst) a considerable time.

So yea, I'm definitely concerned about the numbers because I don't trust that blizzard is going to shore up our mobility. I think they've said they aren't shoring up weaknesses directly but rather they want to maintain the class distinctions for strengths/weaknesses. I mean, if they want to fix our mobility directly, I'm all for that but it seems to me unlikely. Thus I lean more towards asking for compensation in the form of damage. I think if they chose to, they could do this and not make us over-powerful. A buff to death coil as has already been proposed would give us some sustained single target damage and make that button more pleasant to push in the first place. Our AoE/cleave is currently solid and not needing any buffing in my opinion.

I don't share the trust about Blizzard giving us a proper tuning. Why didn't that happen earlier? Maybe it will happen but it seems folly to trust them at this point. I think the more feedback we can give in as many different forums as possible asking for that treatment is the way to go.

[drbatman]

Feeling snared all the time, this is a state of mind. It takes a mental adjustment as you are playing, whatever you have to tell yourself to remember this is the current fantasy for deathknights. Personally, it did take me a bit to get used to normal run speed. Absolutely had the feeling I was being snared all the time. I got over it by reminding myself that I'm a big truck that when I arrive I do good damage. And, initially, as dungeons and raiding started, that's exactly what was happening. I'm not saying my personal experience of overcoming the loss of death's advance/unholy presence/cloak enchant works for others or even that it is the correct way to do things. But it worked for me.

However, as has been said in this thread and others, the more gear we're getting, the LESS true it is that I feel like a slow-moving hard-hitting truck. I don't pretend to understand the scaling issue or what is causing us to fall further behind but it's increasingly obvious as my raid gets more gear, I become relatively far less powerful. Instead, only the slow-moving part remains true, and that's where the slowness starts to really become unbearable, because it feels like a weakness without any path to usefulness. I get that Blizzard's philosophy is to bring about sharp distinctions in what each class's weaknesses/strengths are, but we're seeing a glaring weakness without a lot of strength to compensate in some other area. I also get that Blizzard is saying they don't want to respond to concerns about weaknesses by just shoring up that weakness by say, giving more mobility, but c'mon, we ought to have more strength in some other area as a result.

We are survivable (unholy that is, not as much frost). I have no complaints about that. We swim in excess runic power in order to death strike at least twice on short notice. Unholy's trait to reduce AoE damage taken by 15% is in my honest opinion pretty huge for PvE. And finally corpse shield as a 'oh crap' button or just a soaking option is also fairly strong. The usual suspects of anti-magic shell and to a lesser extent ice-bound fortitude are there, too. Having said that, I don't know about the rest of you, but I truly feel like the lack of mobility is such a truly damning weakness that extra survivability just doesn't cut it. I get left behind on sprints in mythic plus dungeons, I'm a liability in that sense because I might miss the elevator (vault) that everyone else made it to in time, or I might not be able to sprint past a patting mob in time like the rest of the group, or on run backs from a wipe they have to wait on me (arcway is the worst) a considerable time.

So yea, I'm definitely concerned about the numbers because I don't trust that blizzard is going to shore up our mobility. I think they've said they aren't shoring up weaknesses directly but rather they want to maintain the class distinctions for strengths/weaknesses. I mean, if they want to fix our mobility directly, I'm all for that but it seems to me unlikely. Thus I lean more towards asking for compensation in the form of damage. I think if they chose to, they could do this and not make us over-powerful. A buff to death coil as has already been proposed would give us some sustained single target damage and make that button more pleasant to push in the first place. Our AoE/cleave is currently solid and not needing any buffing in my opinion.

I don't share the trust about Blizzard giving us a proper tuning. Why didn't that happen earlier? Maybe it will happen but it seems folly to trust them at this point. I think the more feedback we can give in as many different forums as possible asking for that treatment is the way to go.

make DG into the rogue/abom hook ONLY if target is un-gripable, like pretty much any big add/boss, that would be nice.

[Saybel]

it would be nice if people started looking at 95th percentile because 95th is easily attainable for a skilled player which is what we should be looking at when we look at logs

I agree with the thread and it's premise, but please stop using 75th, 75th is really mediocre

[Zetsumai258i]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...nkings&fight=2

Pretty much sums up my experience of balance. (Nythendra fight) Arms Warrior (He is very good) doing 120k+ dps on the same fight with the same percentile.