[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Wikiy]

Did some 6 minute dummy tests, seems I do 10% less with Divine Purpose than with Crusade, 350k --> 315k (wanted to test out the possibility that new Crusade is worse than Divine Purpose). That would bring us down to pre-buff numbers. Not as horrible as I thought, but still pretty shitty. I might have been okay with this if the buff coincided with the Crusade redesign. That would actually have been good balancing. What this is is Blizzard implementing a completely unnecessary change.

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Well because of the way secondary stats work in Legion, eventually you will not be able to advance haste or crit as quickly so ultimately versatility will become the stat you are trying to get more of until you exhaust the diminishing returns on that as well. Then, well, it's probably back to more haste and crit because mastery is just THAT bad.

It's actually not THAT bad. It's the worst stat, sure, but atm it's only 15% worse than haste for me.

[Melkorr]

Well because of the way secondary stats work in Legion, eventually you will not be able to advance haste or crit as quickly so ultimately versatility will become the stat you are trying to get more of until you exhaust the diminishing returns on that as well. Then, well, it's probably back to more haste and crit because mastery is just THAT bad.

Thanks for the response, any idea if there's a minimum of %Versatility I should stick to?

[Deleted]

There is none % Versa to aim - just try to get haste/crit haste/versa gear or when its like +10ilvl or has socket just any/any stat is better.

[vivel]

We should all petition the new crusader change imo

[Azyurel]

Fun is subjective nevertheless.
Fun is an opinion.
Everyone has an opinion.


I do both Dragonslaying and Slaying of Non-Scripted Adeversaries.

I hate this change regarding Dragonslaying because our ST damage will plummet(not to mention this so very wonderful boW change) , and I fething hate this change regarding PvP because it sets us up for an imminent, brutal nerf. There is no way in hell they will let Rets spam 400k Judgements on the whole enemy team every 3 seconds for half a minute in arena.
It's a lose/lose change.

Ofcourse I would love to see buffs to my spec in PvP, but balanced and thought-out ones.(not like we weren't hotfix-nerfed the other day)
This one is neither of.
Ofcourse I would come buckets at the sight of return of Hammer of Wrath, but this is not it.

Yeah I can't argue with this at all. Basically we aim to be further nerfed, because of this change if it goes live. Funny thing is I don't put it past blizzard to nerf our overall damage to compensate for their shoddy spell design for crusade this time around. Overall just not a great change with this new crusade and they really should recant it and rethink their approach to adjust what they "need" to adjust.

[Krothare]

I'm not really terribly opposed to changing Crusade (the raw haste it gives WILL lead to problems later on in Legion) but if they are gonna replace it with this under tuned mess of bad design then fuck it, leave it alone.

Hopefully we can pull a Shadow Priest here were all the bitching makes Blizzard back off on any serious changes for a bit.

[Deleted]

Anyone else on the PTR not able to use Crusade atm? Did they actually listen, and decided to take a look at it again? It also has the old tooltips on mine.

Edit: Sword of Light is indeed gone, if this is intended, i ask why? We are in the middle of the pack regarding DPS. Why do they need to nerf us again? What the f...?!

Blade of Wrath talent is still there, though

Can anyone else confirm this?

[Wikiy]

Has anyone actually done some live vs. PTR Crusade tests? Can anyone actually say how big of a loss it is? Quantitatively.

[DrMcNinja]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...page=3#post-47

Our prayers hath been answered! #DicksOutForOrnyx

[Snowfunk]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...page=3#post-47

Our prayers hath been answered! #DicksOutForOrnyx

I would love to hear their reasoning.
Crusade is such a fun talent. And considering the amount of people rallying on both EU & US boards, the love is widespread...

[Taven]

I would love to hear their reasoning.
Crusade is such a fun talent. And considering the amount of people rallying on both EU & US boards, the love is widespread...

It really is enjoyable. I hope they reconsider and leave it as is.

[Nir]

I would love to hear their reasoning.
Crusade is such a fun talent. And considering the amount of people rallying on both EU & US boards, the love is widespread...

pretty sure they'll just say that they wanted to have the other talents in the tier a viable choice, or some other excuse they use when they want to nerf the spec as a whole.
I don't see them changing it so close to Live, but I sure hope i'm wrong on this one !

[PizzaSHARK]

It really is enjoyable. I hope they reconsider and leave it as is.

I've been using DP while leveling and stuff. What makes Crusade so good? How do you get enough HP quickly enough to maximize the maxed stacks uptime? Start with 5, spend 3 on TV, zeal for another 3, TV again and that's 6 HP spent. BoW and Zeal again and that's another 3 you can dump into TV for 9 spent, but now you're running into cooldown trouble aren't you? Or does the haste bonus start ensuring that you're not limited by BoW/Zeal cooldowns to generate HP? Would it still be advisable to pick up Justicar's Vengeance on a Crusade build?

[Vanderhuge]

I've been using DP while leveling and stuff. What makes Crusade so good? How do you get enough HP quickly enough to maximize the maxed stacks uptime? Start with 5, spend 3 on TV, zeal for another 3, TV again and that's 6 HP spent. BoW and Zeal again and that's another 3 you can dump into TV for 9 spent, but now you're running into cooldown trouble aren't you? Or does the haste bonus start ensuring that you're not limited by BoW/Zeal cooldowns to generate HP? Would it still be advisable to pick up Justicar's Vengeance on a Crusade build?

At 110 with artifact talents and relics, you're looking at 27.5+ seconds on Crusade - that's enough time to get your 15 stacks and use them with a good amount of time. You need to remember that 52.5% bonus damage and haste is nothing to scoff at - you hit like a monster truck and often with those 15 stacks.

[PizzaSHARK]

At 110 with artifact talents and relics, you're looking at 27.5+ seconds on Crusade - that's enough time to get your 15 stacks and use them with a good amount of time. You need to remember that 52.5% bonus damage and haste is nothing to scoff at - you hit like a monster truck and often with those 15 stacks.

Okay, but at what point does Crusade supersede average luck with DP? I don't have those traits, I have like... 2 traits so far. Is Crusade still good without those traits, still competitive, or do I need all of those traits before it becomes the clear winner?

[Deleted]

VICTORY!

"An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!"

Thank you for listening Blizzard!

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9786708?page=4

[DrMcNinja]

We won the war.

Good night gentlemen.

[Snackwiches]

While it is a bit sad what qualifies for a victory in this game, that is indeed good news.

[Splatter]

Okay, but at what point does Crusade supersede average luck with DP? I don't have those traits, I have like... 2 traits so far. Is Crusade still good without those traits, still competitive, or do I need all of those traits before it becomes the clear winner?

I believe crusade is superior to DP in every situation. The artifact talents make it even stronger. The only times DP might prove better is leveling/questing for more Justicars/self heals and for trash aoe procs on DS. You can get quite a bit of info from the pally discord as well, more in depth sims and theory crafting.

[Ravex]

They aren't changing crusade folks, read a bit before you keep commenting about it.

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I believe crusade is superior to DP in every situation. The artifact talents make it even stronger. The only times DP might prove better is leveling/questing for more Justicars/self heals and for trash aoe procs on DS. You can get quite a bit of info from the pally discord as well, more in depth sims and theory crafting.

Crusade for instanced content, DP for World content/PVP, Holy Wrath for PVP.

Everything in the tier seems like it has a spot granted Holy Wrath should really have a rework. (Would kill to have hammer back in that spot)