Already seeing 'disastrous' consequences of Brexit, Richard Branson says

[Shadowmelded]

If they do then what purpose, other than as a tick boxing exercise or as a clandestine way of stopping Brexit, would them voting on triggering article 50 serve?

Maintaining Parliamentary Sovereignty? I thought that was a pretty big issue for Brexiteers? Ensuring that the Brexit that you want is in fact legal and that you're even capable of triggering Article 50 since it requires it to be done in line with the constitution?

[Tinch]

Maintaining Parliamentary Sovereignty? I thought that was a pretty big issue for Brexiteers? Ensuring that the Brexit that you want is in fact legal and that you're even capable of triggering Article 50 since it requires it to be done in line with the constitution?

Parliamentary sovereignty is maintained, nothing is being done that they haven't already approved.

What would be illegal about triggering article 50?

[Shadowmelded]

Parliamentary sovereignty is maintained, nothing is being done that they haven't already approved.

What would be illegal about triggering article 50?

Except the public don't have the legal capacity to trigger Article 50, someone has to do it. Either it's the Government or Parliament. It's not that triggering Article 50 would be unconstitutional, it's about who does it.

[baskev]

So really you don't know. "You could be wrong, you could be right." Speak with confidence or don't speak at all.

If UK has nothing to offer the world apart from the EU, why so much pull to keep them?



This would be true whether they were part of the EU or not. Being in the EU gives the UK less power to negotiate to capitalize on what they have to offer the world. It subjects them to regulation that is not necessarily the best for the country, but is better for the EU.

The U.S. went from AAA to AA.

My point is there are a select few countries that have really profited from the EU, (the ones you listed) and other countries have not seen the same benefit. Greece, UK... countless others.

I don't like to cry conspiracy but truthfully gone are the days of fighting wars with bullets and bombs. Germany has been on the warpath again and it is taking over Europe financially. You don't think that credit rating change was a way to bend the UK to their will? Or punishment for a bad decision? It by no means cripples them, or prevents them operating as they normally would, but it benefits the big banks.

What has confidence has to do with opinion ?? All i am saying is that i am not a KNOW it all. Just a guy with a opinion.
My Opinion = 1 thing, but reality might not agree with me?? So i can not pre admit i might be wrong according to you?. AKA GUESSING.
And
UK has allot to offer the world. Hell it still has allot of country's who share your queen. Still has the most intact cultural heritage in the world. Nice ale's nice weather ( not joking i like rain), nice country side etc etc etc etc etc. I was talking about reasons why its bad to leave etc.


as for your second point;
Negotiate; indeed they will have more power to make their choice be listen to. But if half the UK leaves, that means less to bring to the table. And To eu yes they will become stronger. But to the rest of the world. They will not have the EU's help anymore.

AA status; Yes they went down. Question have you been to Detroit?? The robocop ( 1980's version movie) version of Detroit looks better the real life Detroit. And again you miss the point. If leave your boss and start your own business in the same field. You want to attract investors. But a lower credit rating means more risk so less likely to get investments.

Profit from EU: I agree with you on that. Personally i would like to leave EU just because of all the bad ( or no) LGBT rights and women rights which are very horrible in EU. ( only 5 country's in whole of europa ( not even EU) have same rights for everyone!!)

Conspiracy; HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. sorry i laughed at you. But are you saying AMERICAN banks and financial company's are controlled by germany. Holy crap your insane. Let me explain credit rating; its how economically save a country is for investments. It was lowered because it is unsafe. What in gods/allah/shiva/boedha/etc name's is save about leaving the EU?? ( aka mr safety net). For investors their are to many what ifs, and what about, and hows For the uk now.
Things they might worry about:
- What will happen economically, can they compete with giants like, EU, USA, CHINA etc
- How will import/export go. Now company's can deliver anywhere in EU and its free to ship your goods anywhere else. This will not be possible. So importing stuff to make stuff is getting more expensive. Or making stuff and exporting it to other EU country's will get more expensive. Yes this can be avoid by lowering import/export taxes. But then you get less money from that source.
- What will the British government do to banking rules, corporate rules etc. What will that mean for them?
- Who will do the jobs. Because with loosing free travel allot of jobs that have been done by East europeans will need to be filled again.

And there are more things they might worry about
My point is. People usually only put money in sure deals.

And i have NO hate for UK. I hope everything will go fine. And i hope EU will change for the better.

[Deleted]

Technically it was advisory, but in practice it was advertised as nothing such.
.

No - Legally it was advisory.

How would it be with no support? The support is the referendum that was ratified by Parliament

Yes, but in the UK, its parliament that is sovereign, not the people.

[Truculentt]

It was the best decision of any country in modern history. My wife is english, and after this american shit show of an election we're seriously considering the idea of moving there permanently.

[A dot Ham]

What has confidence has to do with opinion ?? All i am saying is that i am not a KNOW it all. Just a guy with a opinion.
My Opinion = 1 thing, but reality might not agree with me?? So i can not pre admit i might be wrong according to you?. AKA GUESSING.
And
UK has allot to offer the world. Hell it still has allot of country's who share your queen. Still has the most intact cultural heritage in the world. Nice ale's nice weather ( not joking i like rain), nice country side etc etc etc etc etc. I was talking about reasons why its bad to leave etc.


as for your second point;
Negotiate; indeed they will have more power to make their choice be listen to. But if half the UK leaves, that means less to bring to the table. And To eu yes they will become stronger. But to the rest of the world. They will not have the EU's help anymore.

AA status; Yes they went down. Question have you been to Detroit?? The robocop ( 1980's version movie) version of Detroit looks better the real life Detroit. And again you miss the point. If leave your boss and start your own business in the same field. You want to attract investors. But a lower credit rating means more risk so less likely to get investments.

Profit from EU: I agree with you on that. Personally i would like to leave EU just because of all the bad ( or no) LGBT rights and women rights which are very horrible in EU. ( only 5 country's in whole of europa ( not even EU) have same rights for everyone!!)

Conspiracy; HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. sorry i laughed at you. But are you saying AMERICAN banks and financial company's are controlled by germany. Holy crap your insane. Let me explain credit rating; its how economically save a country is for investments. It was lowered because it is unsafe. What in gods/allah/shiva/boedha/etc name's is save about leaving the EU?? ( aka mr safety net). For investors their are to many what ifs, and what about, and hows For the uk now.
Things they might worry about:
- What will happen economically, can they compete with giants like, EU, USA, CHINA etc
- How will import/export go. Now company's can deliver anywhere in EU and its free to ship your goods anywhere else. This will not be possible. So importing stuff to make stuff is getting more expensive. Or making stuff and exporting it to other EU country's will get more expensive. Yes this can be avoid by lowering import/export taxes. But then you get less money from that source.
- What will the British government do to banking rules, corporate rules etc. What will that mean for them?
- Who will do the jobs. Because with loosing free travel allot of jobs that have been done by East europeans will need to be filled again.

And there are more things they might worry about
My point is. People usually only put money in sure deals.

And i have NO hate for UK. I hope everything will go fine. And i hope EU will change for the better.

I guess you just need to do better at expressing your opinion, and not presenting it as a fact.

If it is opinion preface it as such.

But you present all of this as though it is fact... it isn't and you admit that it could be wrong. So from a reader's perspective your facts (as they are presented) are suspect. If you qualify a statement with "I could be wrong." how likely am I really to buy into your thoughts/opinions? Not likely...

The UK is stronger with EU? I don't think that is true at all. Obviously subject to opinion. But as sovereign nation I think they command far more respect than they do as they would as simply a player in EU games. Furthermore the EU was not formed to be a political powerhouse or a United States of Europe... it was for economic purposes, and has since used its economic influence to meddle in political affairs.

AA vs AAA... again we are talking about countries. Not corporations... so the credit rating is completely different. Your credit rating is based on your ability to pay off current and long term debt. AA is still a damn good rating. As stated previously when dealing with fiat money that money is not actually back by anything tangible... it is worth what it is because of military power.

If owe you $1 and I hand you a leaf to pay you back, you are going to tell me to pound sand. If I owe you $1 and hand you a leaf and tell you its worth a dollar whilst holding a gun to your head... well you're probably going to take it. When you go try and spend that leaf I hold a gun to the merchant's head... and they'll probably accept it. As long as I can maintain that "fear" that leaf... is a dollar.

The moment you question that belief and call the bluff I either have to act and shoot you, or the leaf loses its value.

By downgrading an agency to AA, or a country to AA you are essentially saying... well that $1 (or leaf) is still a leaf... but its a brown leaf. Germany over here... they have AAA or GREEN LEAVES. It's still a fucking leaf, I've still got a gun, and ultimately everyone goes on with business as usual.

Using Robocop as an example here... is in poor taste. (1) I'm not even sure what you point is (2) By maintaining the current deficit and debt to asset ratio the UK will look like detroit IF they stay with the EU. By pulling out, and reducing that ratio they have their best chance of maintaining independence, by staying they make themselves more reliant on the EU for their well being and the well being of their people, which is NOT the concern of the EU.

There is no fucking conspiracy. The credit rating is/was lowered because its not the decisions the banks would have wanted/advised. Shocking right? It's the only recourse the banks have, the only power they have. Banks don't have a military, they can't occupy the UK, so they hurt them how they can... with a rating. Again AA is still pretty solid. It doesn't REALLY effect anything, it scares the average person which influences their decisions. Invest in AAA instead of AA... its safer. Well who has AAA? The countries in the EU... convenient. It isn't at all an accurate depiction of the country's ability to pay back debt, but it IS the bank's rating and ultimately the country is powerless to do anything about it.

I don't know enough about the UK to talk about trade and what their competitive advantage is... I'm sure if I spent some time in UNICEF reports I could determine that for you. In a world economy though countries aren't competing with each other we are trading because of what each can offer the other. Cheap labor, cheap goods, etc.

Your present a lot of good questions, and they are all valid.

But ultimately the country will be better off.

The real question is will the UK take on a view of protectionism? Or will the join the world economy solo, vs part of a group.

I would compare this to a rock band... probably Nirvana and Foo Fighters.

The UK is Dave Grohl.

Germany is probably Kurt Cobain.

Nirvana is the EU.

The only difference in this scenario is Kurt Cobain doesn't kill himself, and Nirvana (EU) continues to be a major force.

Nobody knew who Dave Grohl was while he was the drummer for Nirvana. When he became the lead for Foo Fighters, then people knew who he was and his personal success sky rocketed.

I think what we have with the UK is a Dave Grohl who was yet to be given the opportunity to form Foo Fighters... it is too early to claim "disaster".

[dribbles]

EU's turning speed depends on Theresa May. if she wants a cold hart Brexit, she'll get some.

It is nothing to do with Theresa May. The referendum was fought on the basis of hard Brexit = Leave / soft Brexit = Remain

52% or 17 million people voted/decided leave for hard Brexit. "soft brexit" or Remain Lost. The vote was quite clear = bye bye single market.



Just grow up and stop those remoaning tears already. You lost.

[Logwyn]

That is why normally drastic change requires 66% or 75% of the votes.

There is nothing right about 51% forcing the other 49% to make drastic changes. That just tears a nation apart, tbh.

I agree with you. Its normally the mantra of the "MAJORITY RULES" crowd.

[Tinch]

No - Legally it was advisory.

Yes, but in the UK, its parliament that is sovereign, not the people.

I know it's legal, I'm agreeing with you. I am saying it wasn't advertised as such before the referendum, it's now just being used as a tool by desperate remainers.

Parliament is sovereign, but their supposed to represent the electorate.

[Mormolyce]

You won't find any sympathy here. They made their choice and it's time they face up to the consequences of it.

52% of the 71% of registered voters who showed up to vote made that choice. 17.4 million out of a country of 64 million.

My understanding is that the UK government is under no legal obligation to follow the will of the electorate in this referendum.

I think that's correct. It's just that nobody wants to take the political bullet of saying they will ignore it.

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Just grow up and stop those remoaning tears already. You lost.

Actually, everybody lost. Why do you think all the chief architects of Brexit left the helm like rats off a sinking ship in the weeks after their "victory"?

What a fucking pantomime.

[Kronik85]

It is nothing to do with Theresa May. The referendum was fought on the basis of hard Brexit = Leave / soft Brexit = Remain

Umm what? This wasn't even a discussion till post Brexit, the referendum was not fought nor framed in those terms. This hard or soft Brexit notion is a fallacy, there is simply Brexit and leaving the Single Market since the EU had always stated that access to the Single Market requires Freedom of Movement.

[Deleted]

Brexit is a pioneer! If it goes shits up at least you will all know in the future, I personally think it will get harder short mid term but will even out long term but who knows maybe 70million people with majority of them very well educated comparatively will just die

[dribbles]

Umm what? This wasn't even a discussion till post Brexit, the referendum was not fought nor framed in those terms.

And yet the video I linked of the then prime minister and chancellor clearly frames the referendum that way. It was quite clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market.

the EU had always stated that access to the Single Market requires Freedom of Movement.

North Korea has access to the single market yet doesn't offer freedom of movement. All the UK wants is the same terms.

[Asiwassaying]

Can we get specifics? All I hear from stay supporters (the media ) is doom and gloom predictions and talk of how the hinge are already crap. But rarely do they give anything more than speculation and opinion.

[kamuimac]

I know it's legal, I'm agreeing with you. I am saying it wasn't advertised as such before the referendum, it's now just being used as a tool by desperate remainers.

Parliament is sovereign, but their supposed to represent the electorate.

and electorate of scotland will very soon after they really start brexit show then scotexit

[Tinch]

Actually, everybody lost. Why do you think all the chief architects of Brexit left the helm like rats off a sinking ship in the weeks after their "victory"?

What a fucking pantomime.

How is this myth still being repeated?

All of the prominent leave campaigners either went for PM, are now in ministerial posts or were sacked by May. The only one who you could say jumped ship was Farage, but he had no prospects of having any kind of power anyway.

[caervek]

52% or 17 million people voted/decided leave

This is why there should have been turnout limits imposed (and would have been if Camoron hadn't just assumed he was going to win) pulling the UK out of the EU because 27% of the population vote for it is just stupid, especially considering how many of that 27% have since changed their mind (either because they were only protest voting and never actually wanted to leave or because they realised afterwards they were lied too). By the time Brexit takes place it's pretty fair to say that less than a quarter of the population will be in favour of it lol.

[Tinch]

and electorate of scotland will very soon after they really start brexit show then scotexit

No signs that the Scottish people want that yet, though I'm sure Nicola and the SNP will keep asking the question until they get the answer they want.

[Mayhem]

I know it's legal, I'm agreeing with you. I am saying it wasn't advertised as such before the referendum, it's now just being used as a tool by desperate remainers.

Parliament is sovereign, but their supposed to represent the electorate.

Fun fact, not even ukip voted for it to be legally binding, which is odd in many ways.

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North Korea has access to the single market yet doesn't offer freedom of movement. All the UK wants is the same terms.

So you want the same terms as north korea? That would require your companies to produce three product lines, one that complies with EU standards, one that complies with UK standards and one that complies with US standards.

Unless of course UK standards will be bound to EU standards but then leaving made no sense whatsoever.

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This is why there should have been turnout limits imposed (and would have been if Camoron hadn't just assumed he was going to win) pulling the UK out of the EU because 27% of the population vote for it is just stupid, especially considering how many of that 27% have since changed their mind (either because they were only protest voting and never actually wanted to leave or because they realised afterwards they were lied too). By the time Brexit takes place it's pretty fair to say that less than a quarter of the population will be in favour of it lol.

democracy at its best

Let a minority that pretends to be the majority decide the faith of the country.