What's wrong with mythic+

[Deleted]

I am playing tank, so this is opinion from tank point of view.

Something I noticed that when doing high level m+ most affixes mostly punish tank and healer. Tactic for almost all trash is stun until diminishing return kicks in and then kite and as tank kiting feel really unrewarding when you don't actually get to use your skill but just run around mobs.

Here is tactic for affixes:
Necrotic - tank kite until stacks drop out
Bolstering - kill mobs same time, but if dps fail then it's up to tank to kite. This doesn't punish dps for failing but tank.
Raging - use stuns at 30% hp but if someone used stuns before and mobs got diminishing return on stun then its tank who kite again.
Sanguine - tank kite mobs out of red stuff (also make sure you move mobs far enough from red stuff so that melee dps move out from it too)
Skittish - tank spam taunt
Teeming - more incoming damage to tank and more dps fodder for dps
Volcanic - move out of yellow stuff. This mostly effect range dps/healer, but is far more punishing for healers.
Overflowing - Just effect healers and more holy paladins than other healers.
Fortified - Mostly just kite depending what other 2 affixes you got before.
Tyrannical - This best affix in my opinion and how mythic dungeon bosses should be. Bosses feels trivial compared to trash outside this affix, which is shame since there is lot more variety to bosses than there is to trash which play almost same everywhere (stun/kite).

I feel like m+ could have been lot more interesting if focus was on bosses more and less on trash.

[caervek]

Tactic for almost all trash is stun until diminishing return kicks in and then kite and as tank kiting feel really unrewarding when you don't actually get to use your skill but just run around mobs.

The biggest problem with this is that it means some classes are simply overpowered for M+ and some classes are simply worthless, and to add insult to insult Blizzard have said they are perfectly fine with some classes being op/bad at different things so have no intention to address it.

IMO M+ should never have had timers, the amount of loot should have been RNG (like any instance) but buffed by the difficulty completed, not dictated by how many OP classes you can stack and how many dungeon exploits you can figure out.

[Deleted]

Yes. We're talking about high-level M+.
It's not 100% "fair". It's not supposed to be - the high-level M+ is not for everyone, just like Mythic raiding is not for everyone.
Failing a mechanic doesn't punish tanks or healers specifically - it punishes the whole group - because you risk failing the dungeon.
High level M+ is stressful for everyone. Trying to debate who 'wins' by having the most stressful experience is.. bit silly.

[Deleted]

IMO M+ should never have had timers, the amount of loot should have been RNG (like any instance) but buffed by the difficulty completed, not dictated by how many OP classes you can stack and how many dungeon exploits you can figure out.

Then there would have been no point in making M+ anyways.
If you want to get some high difficulty content done, play something that isn't a burden for others.
It always worked liked that. Or do you really think Mythic progress raids will accept every class, every spec and every gear?

If you want 100% balance and 100% fairness, you get a game with either just 1 class, or different classes with the exact same gameplay where only the visuals differ.

[Louz]

Top-level content in WoW, be it PvE or PvP, was always about the classes.

Mythic+ is no different.

At this moment, to perform well in 10+, you need certain class setup - no different from first mythic raid kills or top arena/battleground ratings.

If you happen to play a class that is not exactly desired in the currently hardest content, you can get there later once you reach certain power level to compensate for your non-optimal class.

I don't know why people started doing so much fuss about it now, especially after MoP and WoD challenge modes, which is basically same thing, maybe even worse, as you couldn't overgear it (but then, it wasn't a way to gear yourself up).


On topic - tanking and healing was always a thankless job.

As a healer, you just stand around and hope others will do their job while you keep them alive, as a tank, you need to know exactly what to do, especially in these dungeons, where every trash pack makes a significant difference.

[caervek]

Then there would have been no point in making M+ anyways.

The big problem is that Blizzard attempted to save time/effort by merging CM and Mythic dungeons, despite them being at odds. The fact CM favoured some classes over others was never a major issue as it gave no gear, however now that it's been merged into mythics (which were implemented as an alternative to raiding) it is causing issues.

[TheVaryag]

I am playing tank, so this is opinion from tank point of view.

Something I noticed that when doing high level m+ most affixes mostly punish tank and healer. Tactic for almost all trash is stun until diminishing return kicks in and then kite and as tank kiting feel really unrewarding when you don't actually get to use your skill but just run around mobs.

Here is tactic for affixes:
Necrotic - tank kite until stacks drop out
Bolstering - kill mobs same time, but if dps fail then it's up to tank to kite. This doesn't punish dps for failing but tank.
Raging - use stuns at 30% hp but if someone used stuns before and mobs got diminishing return on stun then its tank who kite again.
Sanguine - tank kite mobs out of red stuff (also make sure you move mobs far enough from red stuff so that melee dps move out from it too)
Skittish - tank spam taunt
Teeming - more incoming damage to tank and more dps fodder for dps
Volcanic - move out of yellow stuff. This mostly effect range dps/healer, but is far more punishing for healers.
Overflowing - Just effect healers and more holy paladins than other healers.
Fortified - Mostly just kite depending what other 2 affixes you got before.
Tyrannical - This best affix in my opinion and how mythic dungeon bosses should be. Bosses feels trivial compared to trash outside this affix, which is shame since there is lot more variety to bosses than there is to trash which play almost same everywhere (stun/kite).

I feel like m+ could have been lot more interesting if focus was on bosses more and less on trash.

I never done Mythic+ but do Bosses not get additional mechanics or anything but a HP boost? Cause that's stupid... If their aim was to bosot Dungeons and have them be relevant they've failed. Bosses should be more tough and complex. TBC's dungeon bosses remain the hardest to do In WoW history. So hard people asked them to be nerfed, and then we got nerfed Wrath dungeon bosses... don't nerf them, It's hard. It's suppose to be a challange, we're just adventurers not travelling gods of war.

[l33t]

It's suppose to be a challange, we're just adventurers not travelling gods of war.

We're NOT adventurers though, havent you been paying attention to what is happening in the game since WoD?

[Deleted]

The big problem is that Blizzard attempted to save time/effort by merging CM and Mythic dungeons, despite them being at odds. The fact CM favoured some classes over others was never a major issue as it gave no gear, however now that it's been merged into mythics (which were implemented as an alternative to raiding) it is causing issues.

It's still not an issue.
If you want to do mythic raids, some classes/specs are utterly useless, but every content up to heroic raiding is absolutely doable with every class and spec out there.
Same with M+. If you want to go on the highest possible level, play a class that's actually viable. Everybody else can still run the lower ones.

[Deleted]

it seems that the current focus in high end PvE content, mostly M+ but some raid stuff as well, is focused around trash packs rather than boss fights, which is kind of sad.

now, this isn't to say that we need to go back to WotLK levels of "pull everything that's not nailed to the floor and drop a train on it" in between bosses, but the pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.

as it stands now, killing trash packs in higher level M+ dungeons actually requires more from people than most of the boss fights, which seems backwards from a design perspective.

the whole concept of M+ dungeons seems decent, but poorly executed at best.

i would have much rather seen the bosses grow stronger/more difficult as the level of M+ through the use of new mechanics, perhaps randomized weekly like the current system, than an increases in trash pack difficulty, which we have now.

on a personal note, i would have preferred to seen M+ and challenge mode dungeons separate instead of having a timer on M+, it feels like an unnecessarily enforced artificial increase in difficulty. (kindof like how some games have a new game + mode that doesn't add anything except increasing the health pools and damage modifiers of the enemies a little.)

[caervek]

the whole concept of M+ dungeons seems decent, but poorly executed at best.

i would have much rather seen the bosses grow stronger/more difficult as the level of M+ through the use of new mechanics, perhaps randomized weekly like the current system, than an increases in trash pack difficulty, which we have now.

on a personal note, i would have preferred to seen M+ and challenge mode dungeons separate instead of having a timer on M+, it feels like an unnecessarily enforced artificial increase in difficulty.

It's a pity you weren't on the design team

[Deleted]

I am playing tank, so this is opinion from tank point of view.

Something I noticed that when doing high level m+ most affixes mostly punish tank and healer. Tactic for almost all trash is stun until diminishing return kicks in and then kite and as tank kiting feel really unrewarding when you don't actually get to use your skill but just run around mobs.

Here is tactic for affixes:
Necrotic - tank kite until stacks drop out
Bolstering - kill mobs same time, but if dps fail then it's up to tank to kite. This doesn't punish dps for failing but tank.
Raging - use stuns at 30% hp but if someone used stuns before and mobs got diminishing return on stun then its tank who kite again.
Sanguine - tank kite mobs out of red stuff (also make sure you move mobs far enough from red stuff so that melee dps move out from it too)
Skittish - tank spam taunt
Teeming - more incoming damage to tank and more dps fodder for dps
Volcanic - move out of yellow stuff. This mostly effect range dps/healer, but is far more punishing for healers.
Overflowing - Just effect healers and more holy paladins than other healers.
Fortified - Mostly just kite depending what other 2 affixes you got before.
Tyrannical - This best affix in my opinion and how mythic dungeon bosses should be. Bosses feels trivial compared to trash outside this affix, which is shame since there is lot more variety to bosses than there is to trash which play almost same everywhere (stun/kite).

I feel like m+ could have been lot more interesting if focus was on bosses more and less on trash.

Now you say that and you're right. At high level people fucking up usually "punish" the healer and the tank but that's fine. You need to keep in mind that it's not balanced around PUGs nor is it made in a way so that it takes personal performance into account. The group wipes for whatever reason means that the group suffers, not only the guy who fucked up. As per usual pugs are made with randoms and as everyone knows half of all players is worse than average.

Now i'm not usre that m+ would have been more interesting if they focused on bosses. Most of the dungeon is trash so it makes sense for that to be hard. With the +10 affixes you rotate between bosses being hard and trash being hard which seems fine to me. As you get to higher levels some bosses actually start to hurt even outside the +10 affix. An increase in boss health & damage starting at higher than the trash would be fine though especially for lower levels where pretty much everything is underwhelming.

If we're looking at trash hp & damage growing like
10% 15% 20% 25% 30% 35%
bosses doing something like
20% 22.5% 25% 27% 30% 35%

would make low level slightly more interesting but boosting bosses at high levels would only make Tyrannical impossible to deal with. Adding more abilities to bosses would in effect just end up lowering the maximum m+ you can do which would just piss off the people m+ is primarily targeted at(people who aren't necessarily the greatest at tactics) as good players will most likely be able to deal with the new abilities just fine unless we're talking unavoidable AoE or other things you can't "counter" through tactics.

[caervek]

It's still not an issue.

If you want to do mythic raids, some classes/specs are utterly useless, but every content up to heroic raiding is absolutely doable with every class and spec out there.
Same with M+.

I like the way you claim it's not an issue then proceed to outline the issue with it XD

What is the point of designing an alternative to Mythic raiding and then giving it the same problems but made even worse?

I think when Blizzard imported Mythic+ from Diablo 3 they forgot that it works there because the shear build variety makes every class viable, WoW doesn't have anything near that variety.

[Marston]

Well, Mythic+ dungeons are basically in there first iteration. I am pretty sure we will see more affixes in the future and maybe even some changes to the whole system (if the raiding and hardmode system is an indication).

[Deleted]

I like the way you claim it's not an issue then proceed to outline the issue with it XD

What is the point of designing an alternative to Mythic raiding and then giving it the same problems but made even worse?

I think when Blizzard imported Mythic+ from Diablo 3 they forgot that it works there because the shear build variety makes every class viable, WoW doesn't have anything near that variety.

Not being able to do every piece of content with every class/spec is only an issue if you make it one for yourself.
My statement is still the same. If you want to play on a higher difficulty level, don't whine around but rather adjust your style of playing.

[MrExcelion]

With trash you can CC it all and take your time, but tuning bosses it's more binary in terms of being able to do it or not, so they don't want the brickwall. The existence of tyrannical also means they have to set the bar appropriately low enough w/o it so it's not impossible w/ it. A little bit of a breather isn't bad either, that's just my perspective

[ZeroWashu]

Its called, blizzard is out of ideas and just throwing everything into the game they can. why should they care if some classes are op and others aren't, the majority will continue to pay up to suffer it

[Teaon]

I never done Mythic+ but do Bosses not get additional mechanics or anything but a HP boost? Cause that's stupid... If their aim was to bosot Dungeons and have them be relevant they've failed. Bosses should be more tough and complex. TBC's dungeon bosses remain the hardest to do In WoW history. So hard people asked them to be nerfed, and then we got nerfed Wrath dungeon bosses... don't nerf them, It's hard. It's suppose to be a challange, we're just adventurers not travelling gods of war.

they do not need additional mechanics, their normal mechanics turn into 1 shot deadly mechanics later, that force you to plan for it, I.E pots/defcds/cheese/spread

some boss's 10+mythic are just brutal

[Deleted]

Tanking and healing have and always will be thankless.

Don't think I have ever seen a dps get called out for missing an interrupt during high level trash, but you bet your house on the chat involved tanking and healing blame.

Saw this literally last night on the trash packs before the boss in Arcway that imprisons random members. One trash does like an AoE move that wrecks everyones shit and nobody interupted once, but obviously poor old me pushing out 400khps was the problem -_-

[Deleted]

I never done Mythic+ but do Bosses not get additional mechanics or anything but a HP boost? Cause that's stupid... If their aim was to bosot Dungeons and have them be relevant they've failed. Bosses should be more tough and complex. TBC's dungeon bosses remain the hardest to do In WoW history. So hard people asked them to be nerfed, and then we got nerfed Wrath dungeon bosses... don't nerf them, It's hard. It's suppose to be a challange, we're just adventurers not travelling gods of war.

So you have no clue what you're talking about and are in no position to comment on the current state of dungeons.