Why is Sylvanas becoming this?

[Dembai]

I don't think it's selfishness so much as fear of her own "mortality". She does get KILLED in the Sepulcher quests. She's terrified of dying again (she's sort of gone through it a few times). And to be honest, that makes her interesting. She IS interested in preserving the undead she leads. They are her army, (and protection) after all. But her own personal lack of TRUE immortality is enough to terrify her and have her make endless interesting choices.

I like that Nathanos is her fuckboi, that being said, it pits her and Genn at each other's throats and ALSO makes HIM make interesting choices (why isn't he doing his job as general? He's out hunting Sylvannas just for his own personal vengance!)

But if she had succeeded in securing immortiality for herself, do you think she'd deny it to the other undead? I don't.

And I should say, I am a Sylvannas loyalist. And play a TROLL. She's the most interesting character in the Horde. Her personal quest for immortality is fine, and interesting if she makes it. Because if she makes it...well...what WILL she do to the horde?

Because I'm fasinated with the prospect of what the horde will look like when Sylvannas finally can't be killed.

And let's put it this way: She isn't crazy. She didn't get mess with an old god. She isn't bent on world-destruction. She's got more to her than that.

[Mehrunes]

Not sure what you're referring to with Lor'themar or Halduron. If you mean what Lor'themar said to Halduron in "Shadow of the Sun," I think that was meant to be taken as pretty bleak sarcasm on Lor'themar's part - bemoaning the notion that Blood Elven soldiers would find their way to the war in any case. As for attachment and mourning, I don't think Sylvanas mourned anyone who gave their lives in the Northrend campaign at all - the only person she appeared to mourn was herself, and that only after her original reason for "living" was gone.

Same story. Was thinking of wrong character though. It was the leader of Quel'lithien that said it (then Lor'themar mulled over his words later on). And the campaign in Northrend was when Sylvanas suffered from mild undeath and was changed emotionally for the worse. Apples and oranges.

Unsure on Eyir, but I think even the notion that she would drain and destroy an unaffiliated third-party to gain further mastery of death puts her on closer terms to the Lich King's actions (again, a figure she strives to define herself against). For the Blood Elves, she played on the legacy of her connection to them - if she didn't outright tell them her intentions were a noble desire to help them she certainly let them think that for themselves. Lor'themar's reaction to her request for the Blood Elves to join the Horde forces at Northrend pretty much spells out the sense of betrayal and humiliation present there. I doubt Thrall would've pressed the beleaguered people of Silvermoon the way Sylvanas did - and the undercurrent of Sylvanas' reaction to Lor'themar's hesitance always struck me as carrying a threat that goes beyond just sanction by the Horde. For the Blight, I'm not referring to the mechanics of its nature or usage, but more to the corruption of the land it is used on. Southshore and the Vrykul village near New Agamand aren't very far from the look and feel of the Plaguelands, after all.

Considering that Lor'themar wanted to ignore Horde's call to arms and needed Sylvanas blackmailing him to pull his weight. He'd no longer be entitled to said support in case he didn't anyway, so it's not like Sylvanas would really screw him over. He'd have done that to himself. Kinda ironic for him to be fussy about betrayals though. And Trolls joined the war effort despite failing in their long lasting campaign against their great adversary Zalazane. There was no reason to let Blood Elves just flail their hands in the air and do absolutely nothing. And we don't know what Sylvanas exactly said to the Blood Elves when she offered her aid, but as she said, they were not obligated to take her offer and chose that on their own.

And her forcing Lor'themar to stop being a dead-weight and a whiny little bitch doesn't negate her still feeling nostalgic towards her life. We've been shown that on numerous occasions. Which makes implying Sylvanas would attack Quel'thalas or something rather unfounded. Not only would she be focused on the Scourge and she's not Varian enough to fight on twenty fronts at the same time, but pulling the Forsaken out of Tranquilien is already going beyond the sanctions of the Horde. These are her troops and given they were in Ghostlands before Blood Elves joined the Horde. They could stay there even after they were kicked from the Horde if Sylvanas so wished.

If the lantern was for trapping Eyir - I highly doubt "momentary" would be a good word to describe the length of her stay in Sylvanas' plans. And no, duplicity isn't quite the same thing as hypocrisy, but as we're qualifying Sylvanas' traits here it doesn't really either detract from my portrayal of her, either. The Blight's effects on the places it has been used are definitely a qualifier in my mind, but I can't speak for everyone. "The Forsaken are nothing like the Scourge," doesn't exactly line up well with "look, here's a weapon based on the Scourge plague that decimates both the living and undead, and also blights the lands around it in a variety of horrifying ways."

If she intended to steal her power then there would be no reason to hold a powerless Val'kyr trapped afterwards. What would be her purpose? Living furniture? Or maybe we're looking at it the wrong way and her deal with Helya involved handing Eyir over to her in return for Helya's own Val'kyr. And if your example of her hypocrisy is her not being a hypocrite then it kinda does detract from your portrayal of her as a hypocrite. And I still really doubt if anyone thinks about the state of soil when they compare things to the Scourge. Foresaken even less than other given how they have no need for good soil. Would salting the land be akin to the Scourge too? It messes the ground quite a bit.

I'm still not sure on Sylvanas' ultimate feelings on undeath - whether because of different representations by different authors or conflicting story elements, there's a lot of possible ways to look at any of her actions. Her plans for Vareesa for example, I couldn't say if they imply that Sylvanas is okay with converting people into undeath now, or if the idea of having her sister by her side once more (and loyal to her once more) were just ascendant over any reticence she'd have about consigning another being to undeath. She demonstrates loyalty to the Forsaken in many ways, but it's also been explicitly and plainly stated that she's using them to stave off her ultimate fate. To be honest, I think we'll need more information before we can really know with certainty where Sylvanas is heading as a character.

We've been said they are merely tools to prolong her existence in Cata. In Legion we've been told their importance is near the importance of said life and that she may even choose the fate of the Forsaken over her life. Character progression. Same with undeath. She wanted to save Scourge forces from mindlessness after Lich King died, then chose undeath over death when death turned out to suck, then was ecstatic when Val'kyr resurrected her a second time and confirmed her feelings that it's the way to go, then wanted to have Vereesa by her side, but as an undead.

What so interesting about Sylvanas's story? Im got killed > hurr durr Arthas > Arthas dead what i should to do hurr durr? > im gonna suicide > it was stupid idea > hey i will become like arthas and start resurrect people against their will hurr durr! Sylvanas since begining is comic character.

Subjectivity is once again lost on you.

Like what?

Resurrecting people against their will? Check.

Attacking and destroying neutral kingdoms? Check.

Killing/trying to kill your family members? Check.

Spreading plague and undeath? Check.

Killing innocent peoples? Check.

1. Ignoring Word of God. 2. War happens. Forsaken were forced into that war and didn't really want that land. They didn't particularly destroy Gilneas. 3. In completely different circumstances. Also, she didn't even try, she only planned that. 4. As the #1 already covered, also different circumstances in regards to undeath. Blight is a plague in name only. 5. Covers pretty much all playable races and is by no means exclusive to the Forsaken.

5/5 grade nonsense you got there.

People said same about Garrosh and where he is now? *rolleyes*

On the other hand people like you cried about Sylvanas becoming a raid boss in the next patch. Where is she now? Oh, right, still here. And oh noes, expansion. Night Elves and humans say hi.

I found it hypocritical bullshit from Sylvanas. She wanted revenge Arthas for what he did to her and her kingdom. Today she basically doing the same to others.

Except for the part that's not, you know, not the same.

Bla Bla Bla... The problem is what Forsaken resurrect 1st and then ask. By resurrecting they damning everyone. Its so hard to understand?

The presence of headcasecanon on a lore forum is indeed hard to understand.

But those aren't pain and suffering. Claiming it (CoF) brings pain and suffering is like saying having emotion brings pain and suffering.

Well, fear and anger is already enough. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Trust Yoda, you must.

[Shadowspire]

She attacked odyns forces, you know the guy with the army meant to fight the legion.

You mean the shield maiden town? Those seem to be the only time you can stretch and say those were odyns, but technically they weren't his forces just a religion based on his replacement for helya. Hell any vykrul we kill can be seen as odyns forces since we don't know who he would raise.

[Kallisto]

HAHAHAHA; HAHAHAHHA!!

Yes, this options are right but..You´re Soul bannished from the Paradies like Sylvanas too.

Yeeaaah!

There is no evidence of this. We only know of two people in that zone. Hell we don't even know if that zone actually was where Sylvanas went because it could have easily have been another Val'kir vision.

What we do know is that undead that we the players have killed have at times Ascended back into the light. We have seen it, with our own eyes.

[Magnagarde]

If you guys remove the alliance from fighting her, what has she done?

Everyone that fights her is doing so because she wronged them in the past. Whoever is part of the Alliance right now and is fighting her and her undead, is doing so either because of her wrongdoings which either happened from the onset of her free will(ie betrayal of all of Lordaeron - Scarlet Crusade) or because she wronged them during WoW's timeline(ie Gilneans).

The Alliance of Lordaeron and their forces helped liberate Lordaeron, only to get betrayed and massacred after they dealt with the Dreadlords controlling Lordaeron. Why is anyone surprised that whoever managed to live through this wants to see her demise? Why is anyone surprised Genn wants to see her demise? It simply makes no sense to expect any characters to forget such attrocities.

[Aucald]

One's birth not being a choice was kinda, you know, the point. And Arthas basically soul raped her because she pissed him off. Ending of Silverpine says completely different tune about her resurrection by the Val'kyr. It's also not known why Sylvanas was sent where she was, but it's not the fate of all undead. And again, how the hell is the Forsaken offering a choice prior to the resurrection supposed to work? As for who would ever accept it, plenty of new recruits since Cata, take your pick. The bit about rage is misrepresenting Word of God.

When comparing between a choice to be raised into undeath (a choice ostensibly made by those raised by the Val'kyr) and a choice to be born - a question no one is asked in both the Warcraft universe or real life? I'm not sure I take your meaning. I also never claimed that damnation was the fate of those raised as undead, I think I've actually articulated my views on that pretty in-depth elsewhere in this thread. My point about the "choice" is that it is also a subtle manipulation - the raised being is automatically tainted by Shadow (via Necromancy) to return them to a state where they can be asked. If the madness bit is prevalent it only makes that aspect of manipulation worse. It's accepted because by the time the (essential illusion of) choice is offered it's mostly out of the subject's hands unless they possess very strong will or a strong desire to return to death.

The general rule of thumb with the new Forsaken is that Sylvanas put Lordaeron's old graveyards to good use. We saw only one case of the rage issue appearing.

The mass graves of Lordaeron are a product of the nearly region-wise extinction of its living populace. Even then, the Warcraft universe is one of conflict and strife - given the sheer number of wars and conflicts in human history on Azeroth I'd say peaceful death is probably relatively uncommon. If the rage upon undead rebirth is a result of being raised following a traumatic death in battle, it's going to be the norm for more of the Lordaeron dead (and probably most of the dead on Azeroth).

What's with people thinking Lordaeron was created only recently? And this is yet another misrepresentation of the Ask a CDev answer. For the rage issue to appear the person killed in a violent manner have to be resurrected shortly after that. Besides, again, Scourge and resurrection are kinda intertwined. Why would the victims of the Scourge still be dead a decade after TFT?

See above. Lordaeron is relatively mature nation-state, but it's complete depopulation of living souls by the Scourge is still fairly recent. The Scourge didn't appear to raise everyone, and the Scarlet Crusade cut down its own share of lives under their delusions that they were also tainted by the Scourge. The rule of thumb remains - those who were still dead to be raised are unlikely to have met their ends by peaceful means.

[Tripzzz]

1. Ignoring Word of God. 2. War happens. Forsaken were forced into that war and didn't really want that land. They didn't particularly destroy Gilneas. 3. In completely different circumstances. Also, she didn't even try, she only planned that. 4. As the #1 already covered, also different circumstances in regards to undeath. Blight is a plague in name only. 5. Covers pretty much all playable races and is by no means exclusive to the Forsaken.

5/5 grade nonsense you got there.

Forsaken being raised against their will is factual. If they weren't raised against their will, why would some willingly choose to die again shortly after becoming undead?

- - - Updated - - -

There is no evidence of this. We only know of two people in that zone. Hell we don't even know if that zone actually was where Sylvanas went because it could have easily have been another Val'kir vision.

What we do know is that undead that we the players have killed have at times Ascended back into the light. We have seen it, with our own eyes.

Undead killed by players only ascend into the Light after being blessed by the Light somehow. There is evidence that the plague of undeath corrupts your soul into damnation. Crusader bridenbard's soul was saved by A'dal and taken to Paradise. Meaning all it took for a holy warrior to become damned was to become infected by undeath.

[Aquamonkey]

Nobody seemed concerned about the souls released when Frostmourne was shattered.

[Deleted]

Yeah... basically, her story ended when Arthas died, but she has been beeing dragged around. It makes little sense how much she bahaves like the lich king now. After Arthas she should have gone home and live the rest of her undeath in peace, or should've died for good that time in ICC.

[Raetary]

Undead killed by players only ascend into the Light after being blessed by the Light somehow. There is evidence that the plague of undeath corrupts your soul into damnation. Crusader bridenbard's soul was saved by A'dal and taken to Paradise. Meaning all it took for a holy warrior to become damned was to become infected by undeath.

what? all a'dal did was prevent his transformation into a mindless ghoul.
the eternity in paradise was a gift, a promise.

[Mehrunes]

Come on, I think we all know that this whole stuff is only a lame excuse to give the Forsaken some Plot-Power up without making them too evil. We see the whole stuff with free will in the Starting Zone, in Silverpine the slaughtered People of Hillsbrad immediatly salute to Sylvanas after they are raised. In the eastern Plaguelands, the killed farmers immediatly are reading to serve you.

And who told you they're the people of Hillsbrad?

[Deleted]

"With flesh came the other curses of mortality: pride and greed, fear and anger. No longer united in purpose, the mogu fought amongst themselves."

So like basically every living being? Is it pain and suffering, that we are not mindless stone robots anymore?

- - - Updated - - -

That's because they don't know any better. They were born with their curse whereas Forsaken remember their old existence.

Exactly. They remember. They remember being a living human, not caring about the world, tending to their farms. Now they have to be part of Sylvanas' shield against her final death. How lucky they are that they no longer bear the Curse of Flesh.

[Tripzzz]

what? all a'dal did was prevent his transformation into a mindless ghoul.
the eternity in paradise was a gift.

"Upon his passing, A'dal and his Naaru take Bridenbrad's soul into the Light, ensuring his rescue from undeath and promising him "paradise eternal".

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Crusader_Bridenbrad

A'dal was saving his soul in the afterlife.

[Mehrunes]

Forsaken being raised against their will is factual. If they weren't raised against their will, why would some willingly choose to die again shortly after becoming undead?

You do realize the concepts of will or personhood do not apply to corpses, yes?

Undead killed by players only ascend into the Light after being blessed by the Light somehow. There is evidence that the plague of undeath corrupts your soul into damnation. Crusader bridenbard's soul was saved by A'dal and taken to Paradise. Meaning all it took for a holy warrior to become damned was to become infected by undeath.

The damnation was being a mindless slave of the Lich King. Nothing in that questline says anything about what would happen to his soul should his undead body fall. The entire point was trying to prevent him from succumbing to the Plague of Undeath. First two times by attempting to cleanse it, then by saving his soul directly once that failed and time was running out. Because being a mindless minion of the Scourge is pretty damning even for normal people, let alone a Paladin.

[Zandalariprelate]

You mean the shield maiden town? Those seem to be the only time you can stretch and say those were odyns, but technically they weren't his forces just a religion based on his replacement for helya. Hell any vykrul we kill can be seen as odyns forces since we don't know who he would raise.

You know those girls clan is the skoval clan too just look the banner he had and the girlds i think the skoval women were gonna to capture Eyir.

[Tripzzz]

You do realize the concepts of will or personhood do not apply to corpses, yes?




The damnation was being a mindless slave of the Lich King. Nothing in that questline says anything about what would happen to his soul should his undead body fall. The entire point was trying to prevent him from succumbing to the Plague of Undeath. First two times by attempting to cleanse it, then by saving his soul directly once that failed and time was running out. Because being a mindless minion of the Scourge is pretty damning even for normal people, let alone a Paladin.

You realize that necromancy does not only involved a corpse, the soul is involved aswell. And we have seen souls/ghosts have free will.


If becoming undead doesn't damn your soul, we could have just let him turn undead and then killed him. His soul would have been fine.

[Aucald]

Considering that Lor'themar wanted to ignore Horde's call to arms and needed Sylvanas blackmailing him to pull his weight. He'd no longer be entitled to said support in case he didn't anyway, so it's not like Sylvanas would really screw him over. He'd have done that to himself. Kinda ironic for him to be fussy about betrayals though. And Trolls joined the war effort despite failing in their long lasting campaign against their great adversary Zalazane. There was no reason to let Blood Elves just flail their hands in the air and do absolutely nothing. And we don't know what Sylvanas exactly said to the Blood Elves when she offered her aid, but as she said, they were not obligated to take her offer and chose that on their own.

Lor'themar's entitlement really isn't in issue - and it's also not known what would have happened if Lore'themar had appealed to Thrall (still Warchief at this time) concerning the Blood Elves' plight. Sylvanas' position to Lore'themar implied a direct threat as I said above, not retaliation from the Horde but retaliation from *her* and her Forsaken. The Eastern Kingdoms are a long way from Orgrimmar and Silvermoon's connection to the Horde was already tenuous. The Darkspear Trolls connection to the Horde is much more solid, and their bond much more direct in my estimation. Thrall considers Vol'jin a friend and very nearly a "brother," in his words - this is not a feeling I've ever seen him extend to Lor'themar (understandably, as the Trolls were there at the very genesis of Thrall's New Horde). The Blood Elf starting quests in TBC and the conversation between Sylvanas, Lor'themar, and Aethis Sunreaver in "Shadow of the Sun" underscores both Sylvanas' essential treachery and Lor'themar's reactions to it.

And her forcing Lor'themar to stop being a dead-weight and a whiny little bitch doesn't negate her still feeling nostalgic towards her life. We've been shown that on numerous occasions. Which makes implying Sylvanas would attack Quel'thalas or something rather unfounded. Not only would she be focused on the Scourge and she's not Varian enough to fight on twenty fronts at the same time, but pulling the Forsaken out of Tranquilien is already going beyond the sanctions of the Horde. These are her troops and given they were in Ghostlands before Blood Elves joined the Horde. They could stay there even after they were kicked from the Horde if Sylvanas so wished.

Pretty simple scenario to imagine, I think. The beleaguered Blood Elves receive aid from the Forsaken from a party who says, "these are my people (the Sin'dorei), let us help them." Together they fend off the Scourge remnant and secure Silvermoon. Sylvanas then says "as payment for my aid, you will accompany my armies to Northrend to do battle with the nearly god-like Lich King in the frozen heart of Icecrown." Lor'themar replies "while we are endlessly thankful for your aid, my people are not yet ready to commit themselves to another deadly conflict." Sylvanas: "Okay, then. I'll leave a garrison of my Deathguard here, and when and if I return from the Northrend campaign I'll return and level your city and all in it to the ground and possibly raise them as undead to boot. Toodles." It's a conversation and an implied threat I can see Lor'themar envisioning, and Silvermoon would get precious help from the Alliance or the Horde should Sylvanas decide to make good on it.

If she intended to steal her power then there would be no reason to hold a powerless Val'kyr trapped afterwards. What would be her purpose? Living furniture? Or maybe we're looking at it the wrong way and her deal with Helya involved handing Eyir over to her in return for Helya's own Val'kyr. And if your example of her hypocrisy is her not being a hypocrite then it kinda does detract from your portrayal of her as a hypocrite. And I still really doubt if anyone thinks about the state of soil when they compare things to the Scourge. Foresaken even less than other given how they have no need for good soil. Would salting the land be akin to the Scourge too? It messes the ground quite a bit.

There are three ways the Eyir situation could go down, in my view of it.

A.) Sylvanas destroys Eyir and claims her power to act as a Val'kyr for herself. She makes herself even more akin to the Lich King than she already is - the hypocrisy being her going against her words and actions that try to distance her from the being that created her.

B.) Sylvanas imprisons Eyir using the lantern and enslaves her to add to her stable of powerful Val'kyr. As above, she becomes more like her previous nemesis; adding to the karmic sleight by enslaving a being to grant her power over life and death as opposed to simply allying with it like she did the original Val'kyr that serve her.

C.) Sylvanas destroys Eyir to fulfill some form of pact with Helya, or delivers her to Helya instead. This is the only route in which she wouldn't be a hypocrite, except for the notion that her end-goal is still a means to find power over life and death (which by extension makes her more akin to the Lich King and more of a hypocrite for trying to define herself against that). So that *act* wouldn't be hypocritical, but her overall goal still is.

We've been said they are merely tools to prolong her existence in Cata. In Legion we've been told their importance is near the importance of said life and that she may even choose the fate of the Forsaken over her life. Character progression. Same with undeath. She wanted to save Scourge forces from mindlessness after Lich King died, then chose undeath over death when death turned out to suck, then was ecstatic when Val'kyr resurrected her a second time and confirmed her feelings that it's the way to go, then wanted to have Vereesa by her side, but as an undead.

The statement from her Legion bio are open to interpretation, and it's a single statement that possibly stands in stark contrast to her actions both before and during Legion. Does she truly care about the Forsaken as a people, or does she care about them because of what they mean to her (i.e. a bulwark against her damnation)? Did her second "death" only deepen her resolve to avoid what is awaiting her? Is her plan to grant undeath to Vareesa a product of misplaced love or supreme selfishness? I don't think there are canon answers to those questions yet - a lot of it hinges on just what the substance of Sylvanas' plans are concerning Helya and Eyir, and her plans for the future of the Forsaken (and by extension the Horde). It's a story still being told.

[Mehrunes]

Everyone that fights her is doing so because she wronged them in the past. Whoever is part of the Alliance right now and is fighting her and her undead, is doing so either because of her wrongdoings which either happened from the onset of her free will(ie betrayal of all of Lordaeron - Scarlet Crusade) or because she wronged them during WoW's timeline(ie Gilneans).

Why should anyone in the Alliance give a shit about Sylvanas' actions towards Scarlet Crusade? When did Sylvanas betta the Crusade? When did she betta all of Lordaeron in a way that would wrong anyone within the Alliance and cause them to fight her? When did she wrong Varian to cause him to invade her lands and declare war?

The Alliance of Lordaeron and their forces helped liberate Lordaeron, only to get betrayed and massacred after they dealt with the Dreadlords controlling Lordaeron. Why is anyone surprised that whoever managed to live through this wants to see her demise? Why is anyone surprised Genn wants to see her demise? It simply makes no sense to expect any characters to forget such attrocities.

Considering that no one lived through her killing Garithos and his troops and the consequence of that being no one else than the Forsaken having that knowledge, it is indeed a surprise to see people use that as an argument for why the Alliance fights her. And to laugh at your reply to Aqua earlier some more, read what you're replying to because it removed the Alliance out of equation.

[Aucald]

Nobody seemed concerned about the souls released when Frostmourne was shattered.

I was, and still am. Especially since you encounter several of them in the Death Knight Artifact quests, and all of them are hostile or maddened by their adventures inside Frostmourne.

[Mehrunes]

"Upon his passing, A'dal and his Naaru take Bridenbrad's soul into the Light, ensuring his rescue from undeath and promising him "paradise eternal".

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Crusader_Bridenbrad

A'dal was saving his soul in the afterlife.

Now ponder on the difference between "rescue from undeath" and "rescue from afterlife that awaits the undead when they die for good".