No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

[K2 Kaitu]

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm very much responsible for this as any others might be. "This" being the increasing wave of players who've reached 860+ ilvl through getting carried by groups who seek level 2-6 keystones. As the Mythic+ system comes to its 1 month anniversary, it's more common than ever that we see players in high ilvl gear performing at the same level or worse than those who are 20-40 ilvls below them. This has not only created a gap between the skill level of the player and the gear they have equipped, but also an air of toxicity and laziness in Mythic 6-8.

Being a warrior myself, I am forced to tank in order to acquire the BiS gear for raiding through mythic dungeons. Thus I've had a much higher rate of exposure to highly geared people who perform at an extremely subpar level compared to what their gear indicates. One should note that having Mythic 4-6 gear doesn't get you to 860+, but the current Warforged and Titanforged system, including Legendaries give people a much higher chance to end up at a level where they technically should not be. While RNG is one part of this problem, the most serious one is how woefully unprepared many of these players are. Over the course of the last week, having run 30 or more Mythic+ dungeons at a 5-8 lvl, it has been an overwhelmingly common trend to see people wearing high ilvl clownsuits with mismatched stats. Rocking no enchants or gems in theirsocketed gear, and in some cases, not being able to properly utilize the legendaries so graciously provided by the Lord Himself

However, beyond the simple mistakes lies a much larger issue. They don't know how to utilize their class properly. Being around 860 ilvl should signify you have either done/are doing Heroic Emerald Nightmare or can regularly run higher end mythics. What it really means for a majority of those players is that they got lucky from the time they got their first 3 chest carry from a +2 to a +5 and afterwards from a +5 to a +7/8. This means that they haven't properly learned the intricacies of their class whether intentional or unintentional. From firsthand experience in regularly carrying level 4-6 Keystones with a group and running solo on 7-9 Keystones as a tank, it is common that at least 1 player does not know how to interrupt or cc. Another thing almost as common is their limited knowledge of dungeon/boss mechanics. Often times, crucial casts go uninterrupted, leading to wipes or overly extended pulls that are very costly (I'm looking at you post Harbaron trash). Classes with long term CC's such as Sap (DH/Rogue/Monk) and Polymorph (Shaman/Mage) do not know how to utilize them well. Also in that same note, the usage of hard cc's such as stuns, knockback, disorients, and mind control type cc's are very limited and if used, often poorly so. Classes with Heroism/Lust do not cast it until they are told multiple times to do so, and priority targets are ignored, resulting in losing out on that extra chest due to the mistakes piling up and losing a lot of time. The knowledge of weekly affixes are also very limited as people mass AoE adds down during Raging and Single Target Focus them during Bolstering. It is very representative of the players having cultivated the "I've got the key, so carry me" mindset that we so often see in Trade Chat.

The unholy combination of RNG loot and easily attained 3 chest carries from the multitudes of groups in Dungeon Finder has created serious Laziness and Toxicity. Often, it is the people who have no enchants, sockets gemmed, and wearing poorly stat-weighted gear that give up first. When faced with serious challenges, they quickly become tilted and act passive aggressive, often intentionally harming the progression. Any criticism given is a blow to their pride which is built upon the shiny. yet inherently worthless gear that they don. Asking for interrupts is often met with "what's an interrupt" or "stfu, I'm a DPS". Often when accepting a DPS or joining a group, I am hesitant to do anything before I inspect each and every member's gear and see if they had enchanted/gemmed their pieces. It is the only line of defense I have in order to not waste the limited time I have to do mythic+ dungeons in the best way I can. In our desire to quickly progress our artifacts, we regularly introduce lower-skilled players into the pool of higher mythics

While many a carry and the carrier may dislike this post, the issue must be brought to light, being that many people are carried through content without actually having to put the effort in, which is why "aspiring" +6,7,8 pugs often become depleted, because one or more players are genuinely not prepared to handle what would be coming at them. This is not only a reflection of the carry system, but also Blizzard's massively luck based Titanforging system. Should it go at a regular, non RNG oriented pace, there would be a definitive gap between the higher end players who would rightfully be at 860+ and the 2-6 Mythic Crowd, who would be in the mid 850's.

All in all, this is not to say that we should stop carrying players, since it would be a massively hypocritical statement by someone who has done more to harm the overall Mythic+ crowd than to help it, but I hope this article brings light to both the Carries and those who Carry to perhaps help the lower skilled individuals improve in their play. On top of that, Blizz might finally acknowledge that overly large upgrades to gear that aren't particularly deserved should be limited.

For anyone who reads this and wants to improve here are a few links to great resources in order to improve:
Preach : For the visual/vocal learners, he provides a lot of general help, including his WarcraftLogs video which is very helpful.
Icy Veins : An incredibly useful site to access guides for your class that details a LOT of things, including Stats, Gems, Enchants, and many more things.
MMO-CHAMPION Forums : You know what it is. Just don't go to deep in, or you'll never get out
Class Discord Servers : An easily accessible Web/Application based Voice and Text source. Often times they discuss the best talents, trinkets, relics, and whatever you may think of. Also filled with some of the best players of the class from all across the world.

[Mister Cheese]

This is to be expected when people are given high item level gear for little to no effort. They have the appearance of being accomplished but in reality RNG inflates their item level and stats. At this point in the expansion there's so many people like this it's a struggle to deal with them. You can tell them to get better but they either can't, or won't improve because to them it's just a game, or even in some cases not their keystone so why should they care?

[Deleted]

also an air of toxicity and laziness in Mythic 6-8.

In groups of random people who are supposed to tackle challenging content with minimum of communication or co-ordination?
You don't say? I for one, am truly and deeply shocked by this.

One possible solution this to this enigmatic conundrum would be to make your own static group with people you know and schedule runs to 6-> with them. I know, quite extreme and unprecedented idea. Maybe the world is not ready for... <dun-dun-duuun> ..guilds yet.

[slalmon]

You can tell them to get better but they either can't, or won't improve because to them it's just a game

Hate to break it to you... but it is just a game...

[K2 Kaitu]

I have my own group to regularly run with, it's simply when I have time on my own late in the night or doing carries with my guys that I notice this, which is a lot

[Meiffert]

For anyone who reads this and wants to improve here are a few links to great resources in order to improve:

Well, I understand your point, but players who read long posts on this forum and are willing to do the research to improve are not the players who need it.

[Mifuyne]

rip my eyes

[OperationFerret]

So uh... what is this thread about?

[Deleted]

So you are trying to get people to learn their specialization to optimize the possibility of a successful run?
I can get behind this, but...

Icy Veins has proven in the last months how unreliable it can actually be.
MMO-Champion forums are hardly something to point people to... since those who read this are already here... besides the negativity in most clas-forums is so overwhelming i cannot see how they actually help. :P

[Tang0]

All said is the sad truth. Lost 8key yesterday because of a balance Dudu who barely pulled 200k, while pulling extra and dieing on helya fight twice in the span of a minute. The amount of "+7 my key need boost" groups is staggering.

On the other hand I use +2 boost on my alt for weekly chest, since it's easier to find a group that way. And I join those boost groups for high keys on my main, just because there's higher chance people will be on the same skill level.

[kamuimac]

You can tell them to get better but they either can't, or won't improve because to them it's just a game, or even in some cases not their keystone so why should they care?

so you are angry because majority of people treat the game as the game instead some heroin substitute for junkies ? oh what cruel world we live in where people play games for fun how dare they those filthy bastards

also dont want to get your keystones depleted to early ? run with guildies simple as that . mythic + 7 and higher is easily on level of mythic raiding if you are doin it with 855-860 itlv dont expect random puggers to deal with it with ease. want to ensure better resoults ? legion flasks all the time , legion pots for bosses , at least draenor pots for aoe on trash , food etc - treat dungeons with respect and you will have good resoults its simple.

[draynay]

I don't get it, you're surprised that judging people based on their ilvl is an inaccurate measure?

[Deleted]

I would suggest the titanforged system is the worst thing for the game right now. It used to be fun but not insanely impactful when the bonuses were tertiary stats (I member those).
Right now however what are the dungeons and raids going to be tuned to? Blizzard is going to have a model as to what is reasonably expected people will be geared to and then they will tune raids and dungeons to that. But that will actually lead to disgusting under estimates and raids that get cleared well within one week and normal mythic dungeons that feel superfluous.
It's not affecting dungeons as much due to the unending scale of difficulty so eventually the dungeon will get difficult however you can see where I'm coming from.
Once they remove this titanforged system they can more accurately tune raids and dungeon content but as of now the whole system is a luck based prediction that is bound to fail in one or multiple aspects everytime.

[TheImperios]

Hate to break it to you... but it is just a game...

Football is a game too, but one is supposed to have some running skills for it, right?

[Sorshen]

TL;DR: git gud

[apples]

this is some tasty tasty elitism

[Zenotetsuken]

Well, I understand your point, but players who read long posts on this forum and are willing to do the research to improve are not the players who need it.

Yeah, I agree. The post falls into the trap that all of these kinds of posts fall into, preaching to the choir.

@OP, No one has figured out how to get the people that you are talking about to listen after 12 years, because if they cared about improving, or even anything beyond what they are doing right this second, they would have already learned all of the information that you are trying to tell them.
The sad reality is that they don't care enough that they are being bad, because Blizzard has spent the past 8 years quashing any kind of personal accountability, since it is easier to keep the masses enthralled by the power fantasy and shiny things, than it is to teach them that in a world of ever increasing threat, you actually need to always be getting better to survive.
You really want to get people to change, figure out how to shove the information down their throats IN-GAME.

[Deleted]

Football is a game too, but one is supposed to have some running skills for it, right?

Bad analogy is bad, mainly because it proves his point more than it denies it.

Yes, there is a base requirement in football to be able to run; but unless you play it in an organized league anything beyond that will not be required.

[Deleted]

I have my own group to regularly run with, it's simply when I have time on my own late in the night or doing carries with my guys that I notice this, which is a lot

I see. So this apparent 'lack of skill' other people outside your elite group exhibit bothers you so much, you had to mobilize yourself to post a long-ass guide on how to 'git gud' on these forums?

And how will this guide of yours help to alleviate the problems caused by random grouping and lack or co-ordination and coherence? I didn't see you address that part, which incidentally, is the main reason random groups or random people "fail" in comparison to your own, well thought out, well co-ordinated M+ group.

Could you please update your post describing those bits to the general MMOC populance so that we can also 'git as gud' as you are.

[K2 Kaitu]

- - - Updated - - -

I see. So this apparent 'lack of skill' other people outside your elite group exhibit bothers you so much, you had to mobilize yourself to post a long-ass guide on how to 'git gud' on these forums?

And how will this guide of yours help to alleviate the problems caused by random grouping and lack or co-ordination and coherence? I didn't see you address that part, which incidentally, is the main reason random groups or random people "fail" in comparison to your own, well thought out, well co-ordinated M+ group.

Could you please update your post describing those bits to the general MMOC populance so that we can also 'git as gud' as you are.

Truuuuuuuuuuuu