EU forum thread that surprised me a lot

[caervek]

This is so stupid I think you must be trolling here. Nice job illustrating the perfect example of the toxic average and entitled WoW player

LMAO, it's beyond the pot calling the kettle black, he's calling him #000000 XD

[plato13]

I see there is no point into discussing with you then. I you are only able to cherry pick quotes, its pretty telling how weak your position is.
Next time try to answer with arguments instead of one liners.


Welfare epics is a FACT. Receiving epics even while leveling randomly is the very definition of welfare. Do you understand the meaning of "epic"?

Even epic pvp gear is a joke given how easily you can get it.

You just are part of this entitlement crowd that just spouts "elitist" everytime something doesn't suit your needs.
This is for you people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvzssimyL8

well there are alot of people who prefer to play as lone wolf and still play more and better then your average mythic raider and simply dont want to be bothered to spend 50% of their time pugging groups and not actualy playing the game. thats what i like about eve. your corp isnt doing anything atm? just hope into your ship and farm anomalies wich conbtributes to your "endgame progression". when you talk about solo content in wow its mostly mount and pet farming...

[TickTickTick]

If someone is scared to interact with other people in a game, they should seek a doctor, not waste time playing. They've got a problem.

And what a stupid argument. 'I refuse to do all the content Blizzard provides (for really silly reasons what so ever) so i deserve some of my money back.' WTF? Its your choice to pay for the game and your choice to play it how you want. Dont like it? Dont play/pay. But first, seek help and fix your social issues. Cause in 10 years you are going to wake up in a deep shit.

[caervek]

well there are alot of people who prefer to play as lone wolf and still play more and better then your average mythic raider and simply dont want to be bothered to spend 50% of their time pugging groups and not actualy playing the game. thats what i like about eve. your corp isnt doing anything atm? just hope into your ship and farm anomalies wich conbtributes to your "endgame progression". when you talk about solo content in wow its mostly mount and pet farming...

Which is a real shame as it didn't used to be this way, back in Vanilla/TBC/WotLK there were more endgame quests than WoD/Legion combined and they gave gear that was useful. Hell Vanilla even had a quest chain to upgrade rare dungeon sets into raid level epics.

[Isey]

its not abut social akwardnes and fear of interaction - its all about mythic dungeons community being extremly cancerous and toxic - if even high geared players like 870 + are declined atm from random groups then casuals who are around 840-850 can forget about geting inside and finishing those quests

This is simply not true in my experience. I have an ilvl in the low 850s, and have pugged most of my Mythic experiences (even +2) and have ran into zero toxic players, zero kicks, etc. Sure, we struggled at some parts but everyone seems to realize it's an increased difficulty especially in a PUG scenario.

Everyone "hears" about the horror stories and they get copied and pasted and talked about, bit no one comes to the forums to say they had regular, fun runs with pugs (because it's not newsworthy).

If the crap happens one out of every 100 runs you are still getting 99 good ones. I find if you are polite and friendly, your group will tend to be the same way.

[Deleted]

If someone is scared to interact with other people in a game, they should seek a doctor, not waste time playing. They've got a problem.

And what a stupid argument. 'I refuse to do all the content Blizzard provides (for really silly reasons what so ever) so i deserve some of my money back.' WTF? Its your choice to pay for the game and your choice to play it how you want. Dont like it? Dont play/pay. But first, seek help and fix your social issues. Cause in 10 years you are going to wake up in a deep shit.

I get that some people just can't handle some of the players in online games. But even so, you can't ban everyone you don't like or expect the company to create a version of the game where you do everything solo when the game is online and focused on group content. Like you can't go to macdonalds and expect everyone to be classy.

I know that the community of WoW is rather bad, and every BG or LFR will always have some trolls and kids insulting everyone. But instead of crying, these people complaining about it should either suck it up and accept it and even make fun of these gamers, or you change games if you can't ignore anonymous behavior.

Also many of these people are very self-righteous, high horse, "holier than thou" individuals. I just had to deal with one specimen the previous page of this thread just because I dare say that you cannot expect a game to be catered to your needs and that its far too easy to blame everyone when you are not even trying to communicate with people.

[smokii]

it's an mmo

play it solo if you want to play it solo, but accept you are likely to stay an expansion behind. sorry the profession system changed, but hey, at least you can solo most of draenor now.

[Sarevokcz]

Which is a real shame as it didn't used to be this way, back in Vanilla/TBC/WotLK there were more endgame quests than WoD/Legion combined and they gave gear that was useful. Hell Vanilla even had a quest chain to upgrade rare dungeon sets into raid level epics.

what endgame quests are you talking about? there were none other than attunements and the gear they game wes something like cloth with agility or plate with spirit... besides, t0,5s WERENT solo activities or epics on par with raid gear past MC by any stretch, you had to first get t0 from dungeons AND you had to do dungeons again to upgrade them, or have you forgotten timed stratholme undead? or Valthalak boss in UBRS?

legion has far more endgame outside of raids than vanilla its not even a contest and repeating mantra about "awesome" vanilla isnt gonna change that

[TickTickTick]

I get that some people just can't handle some of the players in online games. But even so, you can't ban everyone you don't like or expect the company to create a version of the game where you do everything solo when the game is online and focused on group content. Like you can't go to macdonalds and expect everyone to be classy.

I know that the community of WoW is rather bad, and every BG or LFR will always have some trolls and kids insulting everyone. But instead of crying, these people complaining about it should either suck it up and accept it and even make fun of these gamers, or you change games if you can't ignore anonymous behavior.

Also many of these people are very self-righteous, high horse, "holier than thou" individuals. I just had to deal with one specimen the previous page of this thread just because I dare say that you cannot expect a game to be catered to your needs and that its far too easy to blame everyone when you are not even trying to communicate with people.

Its not just online games. Its all around the internet, but people like to ride a 'WoW community the most toxic its ever been!!!!' circlejerk.
Its how it is now. People act terrible while being annonymous. Deal with it, seek help, or stop going online. But dont expect Blizzard to cure your problems or to cater to your mental illness.

[plato13]

what endgame quests are you talking about? there were none other than attunements and the gear they game wes something like cloth with agility or plate with spirit... besides, t0,5s WERENT solo activities or epics on par with raid gear past MC by any stretch, you had to first get t0 from dungeons AND you had to do dungeons again to upgrade them, or have you forgotten timed stratholme undead? or Valthalak boss in UBRS?

legion has far more endgame outside of raids than vanilla its not even a contest and repeating mantra about "awesome" vanilla isnt gonna change that

and thats one of the issues wow always had compared to old school mmos. and most of todays mmos copy wows flaws. god i cant wait for camelot unchained.

[Hctaz]

Wouldn't that imply that the game was far better back then because "forced" grouping and content was the norm? And this toxicity has appeared more after these last expansions because it started to cater more and more to these solo people?

The game wasn't so bad when group finder was first introduced in the middle of Wrath. Things were still okay because people generally all knew each other on the server. You knew the names of the guilds, you knew who had the best loot, and you would oftentimes interact with people in trade chat. I don't know what happened during Wrath but I started seeing my server I had been on since TBC die. People were leaving. I no longer knew people anymore and I didn't learn the new people who were coming in. Nobody interacted with anybody else. Nobody cared to jot their names down. Realid and cross realm interactions became and thing and then it was completely pointless to do anything with anybody on your server. Guilds came and went and I had acquired many friends from these but even though we ended up on different servers it didn't matter. If I transferred after a guild fell apart then I could still play with the two or three guys who I was friends with in the guild. I didn't even need to discover anybody else and the only new people I did interact with were people in my new raiding guild.

Basically the game became 4chan. Anonymous behavior with no social consequences. Before, you had to play nice or you risked being a social outcast to the only people you could interact with.

[caervek]

what endgame quests are you talking about? there were none other than attunements

Seriously? O.o

Well you had the epic Tirion Fordring chain, the strat/scholo chains, the Awbee quest, the dungeon set 2 questline, plus all the L60 quests you had from the L60 zones you didn't do, and this was just in vanilla. TBC and WotLK had even more endgame quests and even more cool items and chains to complete.

[Helkor]

I don't think they're scared of IRL interaction. They're scared of being inadequate. They're scared they will not perform, and as a result will be kicked and flamed for being bad.
This is not a good feeling, I'm sure everyone has tried it at some point in the game. These people need to find a casual guild, a safe space, where making mistakes will not get you kicked from the raid team. Unfortunately however, there are very few of these guilds. Even the guilds that aren't hardcore, still expect you to do well in raids.

Is this a problem? Yes and no. It's not a problem at all for those who's decent at the game.

Imagine this, you play WoW, and spend a lot of time on it. One of your family members (Sister, brother, whatever) decide they wanna try their hand at the game, because it looks interesting. You like your sister/brother, and don't want them to be hurt. They level up, and clearly, through leveling, they don't obtain the skills required to be a decent player. He/she tries out a dungeon, and it results in being flamed and eventually being kicked from the group. A massively bad experience, especially for a first one. He/she is now sad and scared of trying out more dungeons and raids. Is it their fault? No, they were trying to play the game as intended, they were having fun up until now. Is it the dungeon group's fault? To some extent. They really shouldn't flame other players if they're bad, especially in a dungeon environment. Who the fuck cares? It's just a dungeon!
This may lead to them thinking "Oh well, I like the game, but I really didn't like this experience, so perhaps I should just stick to solo play"

So always remember, if someone is doing bad in your dungeon group, talk to them, ask if they're new, offer some advice. Don't flame them, be polite. I had 3 new players in my dungeon group yesterday. The 2 of them did under half my DPS. We had fun, they were really confused, and died a lot. Luckily me and the tank were pretty well geared, so we just powered through the bosses 2 man. But I think it meant a lot to them that they werent flamed, just because they're new. They actually had fun.

And this is important. In the end, for 100% of the player base "FUN" is the most important element in the game. But fun comes in many different forms for the individual. Some only have fun if they're doing really well AKA "Power gamers", the same goes for people who like the lore, and people who like the world.

Those in my dungeon weren't power gamers, they were there purely to experience the game. They wanna do well, but really didn't have the skills and knowledge to do so.

I guess, what my point is. Don't flame people, unless they truly are gigantic asses. If they're just doing bad, and it's not in an important situation, then who cares? And then we may see less people who play WoW as a singleplayer game, and will actually take part in the community. Because really, these people, from my experience, are really amazingly fun players to interact and play with.

TLDR: Don't flame people, even if they're bad. Then people might not play singleplayer.

[tikcol]

Get off your high fucking horse. If I, a veritable asshole, can have a pleasant playing experience with a wide variety of player types, hardcore and casual, guildies and randoms, then so can you. If people constantly kick you / criticize you / don't want to play with you, chances are that you're the obnoxious one.

This is something I found to hold true for most of the "omg fuck those toxic misogynerd elitist asshole scumbag dudebro vanilla entitled raider jerks" crowd - nobody wants to play with you because you're not worth playing with. You are the one creating the obnoxious atmosphere, wanting everyone to cater to your needs, stoop down to your level and be extwa cawfuw to not huwt yuw in-game fee-fees.

Is it true that random groups have a higher-than-necessary gear requirements for dungeons? Of course it is. People use that to offset the lack of coordination and practice by the group of random strangers. If you don't meet the "inflated" ilvl requirements of something, do something lower until you do.

And the 5000 dps too low thing? I've been at this game for 12 years. I have NEVER seen the scenario you described. Unless it's less 5k and more 50k, in which case it's not "your dps is a little bit too low" but "you are severely under performing". If you severely under-perform then it's every group's right to remove you because guess what - you are wasting other people's precious time.

Most of the "elitist assholes" on the forum are the same type of person - people who have been watching crybabies like yourself cry and bitch and moan for the better part of the past decade for easy access to gear / mounts / titles, about how the EVUL 1% gets all the good stuff and how they want equally awesome-looking items, see all the end-game content for only a fraction of the time invested etc. People who witnessed crybabies being catered to for years, yelling constantly that it's a bad idea, that it is not sustainable, just to have it fall on deaf ears. Those people are simply sick and tired, turned bitter by a decade of what feels like wasted effort. After all, those "elitist assholes" put a lot more effort into the game than you and got nothing to show for it.

By the way, just recently we did get as close as ever to WoW being a "single player experience". You might remember this particular period, it's known as "Garrison squatting". The ultimate crybaby utopia - none of the effort, all of the handouts. The game plays itself, you don't need to learn to dps / tank / heal! You just get shinies! Wasn't that the perfect world you wanted?

Of course not, there will always be a new thing to whine about. Nowadays it's the hidden artifact appearance in raids, tomorrow it'll be something about Nighthold.

Simply put - For most of us "elitist", telling you to stick it where the sun don't shine is as much effort as we can muster at this point. You're not going to change your handout begging, but hopefully Blizzard has wisened up and won't allow the game to turn into a bland sea of beige, where no one and nothing stands out because god-forbid someone has something you don't.

Thank you for taking the time to write everything I think.

[Sarevokcz]

Seriously? O.o

Well you had the epic Tirion Fordring chain, the strat/scholo chains, the Awbee quest, the dungeon set 2 questline, plus all the L60 quests you had from the L60 zones you didn't do, and this was just in vanilla. TBC and WotLK had even more endgame quests and even more cool items and chains to complete.

please. those quests didnt give any meaningful rewards, certainly nothing on par with MC gear, let alone later raids, nothing made them "endgame" other than being 60lev quests...

[Reavyn]

I've seen the argument 'It's an MMO. As in multiplayer.' thrown about quite a few times in these types of discussions. But where in the description of an MMO does it state that it has to be about grouping up? All an MMO means by it's very definition is that multiple players will be playing in the same game world. What they do and how they do it is in no way described or even hinted at by the genre itself. Please don't use that argument to force your particular interpretation of the genre upon others.

That all being said, I enjoy group content. I have no problems PuGging (though, I much prefer guild groups). But at the same time, I can understand that some people simply do not care for it. Now, saying that all content should be available to everyone is ofcourse a sheer impossibility. There will always be group content that is unavailable to solo players. This is a good thing, as it caters to those who want to play like that (which includes me).

But when you gate things like crafting - which is inherently a solo activity - behind group content, things start to get a muddled. For these kind of reasons, I can see why there are complaints. What is the point is gating solo activities behind group content? Now, if it were just things like epic gear pattern drops like in the past, I would understand it. But for actual personal progression in your chosen profession to be gated behind group content, does feel a tad silly to be honest.

So yeah, I do think there should be more of a clear seperation of group and solo content. Neither is superior nor inferior to the other, but with the diverse population of the game it tends to be a not so good solution to mix the two.

You see this elitist, toxic atmosphere in mythic dungeons and even pvp? Thats the case since blizzard decided to provide welfare epics and padding on the back to every player on this game. Achievements, welfare epics, LFR, RNG legendaries, are all part of this ego-driven design to make players feel good about themselves constantly for no reason. Sadly this often leads to people adopting the same douchebag mentality that was previously mainly found within the raiding community. But now that everyone wants the same thing, the number of toxic entitled people increases because everyone adopts the same mindset of elitism, "my number is bigger than yours" and so on. You can't have a discussion before having some random clueless tryhard talk about your pvp rating or pve experience. How often did you see this during vanilla? Nowadays everyone wants to play the game to be the weekend hero with a very large e-penis and 5 epics looted per day because you are so awesome blablabla.

I call bull on this argument. Well, partially anyway. It's a nice attempt at explaining the toxicity of the community and while it definately seems like part of the problem, in the end it boils down to the simple fact of anonimity of the interwebz. If everyone had their real name, telephone number and address on their character sheet, visible through inspection, the toxicity would be much less. The same goes for pretty much any online game. I've played online chess where people found the need to be an ass. No welfare epics in chess.

Welfare epics, LFR, etc etc aren't inherently bad things. The real problem is mainly that it's been taken too far. A solo player getting an epic item is not a problem by itself, but should still feel 'epic' to a solo player. Right now it might just as well be a green with slightly better stats. LFR is also not a problem by itself. I think it's a good thing to allow people with no interest in raiding/serious group content to see the RP elements behind it. But when LFR starts dropping legendaries, things get weird (I refer to my previous point of clearly dividing solo and group content). Achievements are a great thing for those who like them. It adds a large part of solo content to the game. Though. I personally couldn't give two flying shits about 'm.

In short, there is already a crap ton of solo content out there. It just feels to me that Legion has handled this in a fairly poor manner. By often mixing the two types of content up, they create friction between the two types of players.

Personally, I too have a 'solo toon'. Simply because somtimes I want to get away from the stress of group content. And I enjoy it quite a bit. Soloing old content, finishing up quest areas I skipped/missed, gathering mats for my main, finding Wod/MoP treasures I missed, mount hunting, messing about with different legendary weapons, some nice class hall storylines, etc. I am fairly certain this character will never be able to swing it's e-peen about in a grandeur manner, but that's not what the character is there for (and the fact that it's a female Night Elf would make that a very disturbing sight to behold).

[Deleted]

Naming/Marketing aside, the way this game currently is is pure market psychology. Studies have shown that subbed people have a higher tendency to stay subbed if they are in a social circle that plays the game. How better to get people into these circles than force them into it at first. A very good share of people will eventually start finding actual friends/mates because that's just easier and quicker than always looking for random others. This creates exactly those social circles that play the game, thus - again - increasing "stick rate" with the game.

Blizzard and WoW are not (only) there because there are nice people that want others to have fun, but to make money. And like all of the F2P Browser game companies that have whole departments dedicated to finding out how to get people even more hooked to their games and spend even more money, I'm sure Blizzard does the same.

Risking to lose those 80 people that upvoted the forum post but gaining 1 Million people with a higher "stick-rate" because they managed to get them into social circles playing the game is just a clever business strategy that makes sense

[Himora]

Mythics should be in the dungeon finder, heroics are way to easy, and most people (that have lives) cant spend 4hrs trying to make a group that could flop on a wipe. they could also add something like if you finish it within a time limit that group gets access to M+ ect ect, its just lazy design & nothing cool about wasting hours or days (if you arent FOTM class) making a group for a dungeon that gives lesser gear than raids. Blizzards current elitist attitude is going to push alot of scared's & casuals away at a faster rate than in Wod.

EDIT: Fire holinka he is god awful at this job, even ghostcrawler was better which is saying something, add conquest gains & pvp vendors back, you think not adding a carrot to a stick & giving fish and mana potions as rewards in pvp is a good idea?.. morons. also... fire the people that are "balancing" the classes because they are trash at their jobs. The world designers once again knocked it out of the park & is currently carrying wow, why they don't put out the trash confuses me.

[Deleted]

The problem is part the asinine decision to put those quests outside the dungeon finder into mythic dungeons, and part the fact that people are complete assholes and elitists when trying to get into those mythic groups or trying to form them yourself.

If all the quests that are in mythic dungeons were in heroic dungeons instead, there'd be much less of a problem. Hell, if mythics were on the dungeon finder, that would solve even more problems.



Attitudes like this are again a good example of why some of us just don't want to bother interacting with people in games.

Is this the problem thou?
Is Solo play que for dungeons or do they mean not to do any form of gruop content at alla.
I read it as the dont want to participate in any form of group content. Byt that i mean LFD/LFR nada nothing.
Maybe its in my head but recently ppl have bin asking for solo content,(like soloing dungeons world bosses etc) cuz they dont want to have anyting to do with dungeons/raids.

Ofc i think they should put the mytics in LFD now cuz they need to opt the accesability.
But they dont nee to have them in there from the start.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that the introduction of gearscore is the culprit here, not automatic matchmaking and "welfare epics" which were a huge bonus to raid guilds who recruited people already geared up by themselves and not having to go through all the motions again and again.

You have a point, but matchmaking/welfare played a part to.
(in my opinion) So no one is confused.

[aGit]

Hi, I just wondered if you knew that a LOT of players in WoW actually are scared of interacting with people and uses the game to have some kind of contact with other people?

i would like to have a source on this. I'm sure such people exists, but "a LOT" as he put it?