Do you think Sylvanas vs Genn conflict is over in Legion?

[Magnagarde]

The point is that this isn't some obscure ability. It has actually happened in lore, Rhonin redirected Jaina's portal from Theramore. Mannoroth far surpassed the NElves in magical knowledge, Illidan included. They were basically depicted as children compared to the Legion commanders. Illidan knew that this kind of thing was possible and that someone like Mannoroth would be easily capable of doing it.

I am not arguing that it is ultimately untrue, but we will surely never know what could/could not have transpired and the interruption of teleportation spells shouldn't be considered a norm.

What I am saying is that the possibility or even the thought of Jaina teleporting them away is entirely absent from the entire scene. Surely it would've at least crossed her mind to attempt to teleport them away. Illidan at least thought about it, whereas it wasn't even given a thought during the Broke Shore scenario in which Jaina is actually completely absent for no reason at all.

[Shizari]

I've been wanting Sylvanas dead for a long time now. She's served her purpose, and now Blizz are just turning her into another card carrying villain.

If they wanna keep the faction conflict going, fine, but I want Sylvanas to die, finally. Or if they want to kee a female leader for the Forsaken, they could have one of the other Windrunners give their life for Sylvanas, restoring her to complete life while either Alleria or (mor elikely) Varessa become Undead.

Just... please stop shoving Sylvanas down my throat. She's barely even the same character anymore.

At least they deleted the SoO lines about her bringing her val'kyr to raise dead Alliance and Horde soldiers into the Forsaken.

[Aquamonkey]

At least they deleted the SoO lines about her bringing her val'kyr to raise dead Alliance and Horde soldiers into the Forsaken.

Since when?

[Mehrunes]

To be fair, you aren't free of liability because you can't control your people. Not so much the Horde's fault, as it is solely the Forsaken's fault for a string of very bad decisions and poor internal oversight.

There's a difference between liability and justification for war.

I still say that the Horde is partially to blame for doing an immediate withdrawal from the ridge, leaving the Alliance's flank open and requiring them for immediately retreat as well -- giving their backs to the enemy. However, I think everyone is pretty firmly set in their stances on what happened on the Broken Shore, so nothing productive will be gleamed from going over it again.

Open to what? The melee demons looking at the Alliance menacingly? The same demons having to run around the entire island to attack them from the back?

Remember Hyjal Battle back in W3? Jaina made comes back to Thrall and teleported them away. Said Jaina help Thrall and Co found Ogrimmar (I mean killing her own father for Horde sake). Horde have debs to pay.

Which is relevant, how?

Did you saw "dont be omnipotent"? Like i said A/H when attacking Broken Shore saw opportunity to end it NOW and THERE. But there was price to pay. Vol'jin pissed his pants and was afraid of the losing Horde when it was about saving whole Azeroth.

Did you see the part about them learning this opportunity never existed immediately after Broken Shore? Or do you think Alliance is just like you and as such incapable of thinking in retrospect?

This hesitation was about to spend Valkyries for saving Horde or not. Its oblivious. Its also fun to see how Sylvanas runs away on horse with half dead Vol'jin ahead of everyone.

Yeah, that's why she's making a face of regret as she sails away. Because she used the Val'kyr and didn't lose any. Or why she frowned at the chaos of the battle when she rescued Vol'jin. Oblivious is the correct word here though, fits you perfectly.

Then why people say what Genn is idiot for attacking Horde in Stormheim? I mean if Horde attack Alliance during war with LK at Broken Front it ok. But if Alliance attack Horde in Stormheim during war with Legion its bad and stupid?

Are you serious? Which part of "Broken Front happened after Alliance started a war" did you not understand? And how is Genn starting a war with a surprise attack supposed to be even remotely comparable to that?

Fun to read. Because if use your logic (gameplay logic) Horde are damn scrubs who wiped on trash when Alliance fought several Raid Bosses.

Literally nothing of that was about gameplay. What is fun to read is you grasping at straws that don't even exist and making an even bigger fool out of yourself. Now, back to actual lore arguments, the concept of trash doesn't exist there. Also, Horde fought all the leaders of the pre-patch invasions, Vizuul the Twisted who appears to be even more important than them and were bombed by Fel Carriers. And then there's the entity on the other side of the portal capable of killing anyone who got too close.

Ashran. Broken Front (Horde attacked Alliance from back when Alliance fought Scourge). Wrathgate (Sylvanas can't keep her dogs on leash). Terrorists in Stonetalon Mountains that nuked CIVILIANS. BELFs in Dalaran what helped Garrosh back in MoP. I can continue if you want.

Well, I'll give you Ashran, I tend to forget that abomination even exists. But, Broken Front happened after Alliance started a war. Wrathgate was an event that hurt both factions (and Horde was also hurt by the coup in Undercity that preceded it) and was committed by Burning Legion loyalists. Blaming the Horde for it, even Horde's own losses aside, is idiotic. Stonetalon wasn't a terrorist attack, so don't use words you don't understand, and was an attack in another war, also started by the Alliance. The guy who did it was executed anyway. Blood Elf (one, not multiple) only followed their leader's example of taking sides in Alliance-Horde war.

So yes, do continue giving examples of Horde performing offensive actions against their enemy in wars started by the Alliance and call this "backstabbings". It's nice of you to expose to the world that you're clueless about both WoW lore and the language used on this forum.

Before ICC Sylvanas - We will kill Arthas who damned us to undead curse. After ICC Sylvanas - lets rise every body we can/found.

When will you people constantly whining like infants about Sylvanas manage to understand people changing their outlook is not a mere idea but a thing occurring quite often. Look at Sylvanas' reaction to being resurrected in Silverpine and then come back here.

Was or wasn't its doesn't matter. You work with someone who you call ally. You must.

Yeah, you must do something that can't be done or all the Highwhales of the world will bitch and moan about you not doing it till the end of time. Very sensible.

It not about dying together - its about help to retreat your allies and not thinking about only yourself.

Which wasn't feasible at the time. If the Fel Carriers shot again the Horde would be done for. And even if they didn't, their ranks have been shattered. Also, given the topography of the battlefield, the only support the Horde could offer was the Dark Rangers and the Alliance got that role covered when the gunship arrived.

Its not the same. Difference is what Sylvanas was stupid enough to set Dreadlord in charge.

And Stormwind was stupid enough to put Onyxia in care of Anduin.

Please dont be so sure and stop playing I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF. Like you said You know aside from your own imagination, nothing confirms that.

I know you think you're witty and all using Friendly's words against him, but the sad reality is that you're not. Demons rolled over at the position the Dark Rangers were in seconds. The furthest back Horde forces, not even fighting on the same front. The Horde positions were broken and the Fel Carriers fucked everything up prior to that. The cinematic confirms what he said. The fact you didn't pay attention to it because doing so would prevent you from constructing your fantasy land full of Alliance victimhood tears is irrelevant to actual lore.

I don't know maybe they should just simple die off? Look at Worgens - curse gives them alot of pluses and advantages but they don't trying to spread it on everyones. Like Forsaken do.

They do spread it to those willing to become one though. Oh, wait, just like the Forsaken. Whoah.

Why not use it to charge for Alliance position and make things clear? Hell Horde don't even send diplomats to explain Alliance what happened and why they needed to retreat.

Because cliffs exist. And why put the onus for sending diplomats on just the Horde? Double standards are fun, amirite? Or do you think sending Genn to tail the Forsaken when it was obvious his triggered ass would attack them as an act of diplomacy?

They are after Broken Shore. Even Vol'jin/Sylvanas (i dont remember exactly who) said Alliance will wanted revenge for what they did at Broken Shore.

And they didn't mention anything about it being revenge aimed at the Horde.

Alliance and Horde wasn't allies at this moment. Only Jaina forces and Thralls. Ah and yea its before WoW events also.

Alliance and Horde weren't allies during Broken Front or Stonetalon, didn't stop you from using them as examples. I know your position is so immensely stupid to the point even you realize it and as such it's shameful for you to even try to remember it, but remembering your own arguments is kinda required.

It was before Blood Elves joined Horde. And they didn't attacked first - Blood Elf PC did.

Yeah, no, the spies sabotaged Quel'thalas' defenses first.

Still it was before BELFs joined Horde.

Which makes it an actual backstabbing. Because the Alliance sent these spies under the pretense of negotiating Quel'thalas joining them. The ancient battle between Having-A-Clue and Highwhale was one again lost by Highwhale.

Also wrong - Jaina didn't wanted go for war with horde. She just didn't wanted to ally with cowards.

Bullshit, she only said allying with the Horde would dishonor Varian's memory after Anduin and Velen dismissed her first remark, which was a call to bring the Horde to heel.

Cool now you use personal insults. Calling me bad person in previous threads but in reality you do not better than me. Oh the irony.

Are you claiming the idea of running a horse down a cliff is not outright retarded? If not, then calling it insanity fits. And considering that you're constantly crying about either Sylvanas or HORDE BIAS, the other part fits too. And it would be ironic if I were insulting disabled people for being disabled and other shit you've done. Unless you consider your "condition" a disability as well.

Oh and yea Garrosh. It was 100% Thrall fault - because he appointed him as Warchief when everyone said him it was bad idea. I still waiting when someone call me the event when Alliance was responsible for mass murdering both of A/H during fighting world ending baddies. Something similar to Wrathgate or Garrosh.

Neither Wrathgate nor Garrosh's actions weren't mass murders. Seriously, don't use words you don't understand. And the Wrathgate wasn't Horde's actions so it's still an idiotic example. And given how Alliance started a war during the ongoing war against the Lich King and the war around the time of Shattering, your overall argument here is laughable. Starting wars during ongoing world-ending conflicts is such a responsible thing to do /s Glory to ze Alliance!!1!

Since when?

Was still there last Wednesday when I was soloing SoO.

[Tripzzz]

Jaina wouldn't be able to port anyone away. That close to the Legion beachhead, they would just usurp the portal. This is something even Mannoroth could do.

"Illidan! Can you flee?"
"We are surrounded and Mannoroth no doubt eagerly awaits my use of a spell to spirit us to safety! He would quickly usurp it, bringing us to his loving arms."
--The Sundering

So Jaina shouldn't even try to port them? If the legion could usurp the spell, why don't they just show that happening? Instead we get Jaina disappearing altogether. There's also the distinct possibility Iliidan is overestimating his opponent. Unless someone has already performed such a feat.

[Highwhale]

Garrosh's actions were Garrosh's fault.

Garrosh couldn't do what he did if Thrall didn't gave him power of Warchief. I made it clear?

If you want a murder of Both A/H members how about those that were killed by Greymane during Stormheim opening.

Don't exaggerate. It was battle like hundred others. Name me something similar to Wrathgate when A/H fighting the same enemy and some Horde scum destroy everything.

Is that why Velen reacts to Jaina and tells her it would be unwise to fight two wars at the time? Jaina was pushing for war.

It's Velens interpretation of Jaina's words. Read what JAINA said at throne room and in Dalaran.

She needs to revenge what he did to her, unless something else happens that fixes that.

Sylvanas need to revenge Genn? For what? I'm curious.

Are you serious? Which part of "Broken Front happened after Alliance started a war" did you not understand? And how is Genn starting a war with a surprise attack supposed to be even remotely comparable to that?

Are you stupid? No seriously. AFTER Broken Shore Alliance and Horde wasn't allies anymore. Its confirmed by what Anduin gave Genn approval to attack Forsaken if it will be needed and Sylvanas words what Alliance will want revenge for what they did at Broken Shore.

Yeah, you must do something that can't be done or all the Highwhales of the world will bitch and moan about you not doing it till the end of time. Very sensible.

How about to clean your mouth with soap? I can give you one.

And Stormwind was stupid enough to put Onyxia in care of Anduin.

Again - you stupid? Because i can't understand you silly logic. Onyxia was under disguise when Varimathas is not. Also - Onyxias/Defias actions affected only Alliance.

They do spread it to those willing to become one though. Oh, wait, just like the Forsaken. Whoah.

Oh wait Worgens ask before do it and people go to them themselves. Not like Forsaken. Woah.

Neither Wrathgate nor Garrosh's actions weren't mass murders.

Bullshit.

And the Wrathgate wasn't Horde's actions so it's still an idiotic example.

Okay i will explain for such dumb personal like you. Putricide was high ranked Forsaken. He was working on new plague with Sylvanas approval. He was working with Varimathas. And who the fuck so stupid to put Dreadlord at his command? Right its Sylvanas. Wrathgate is result of Sylvanas failing at keep HER (Horde) dogs at leash. So since Sylvanas is Horde its Horde's fault. Got it?

Infracted.

[Combatbutler]

It's Velens interpretation of Jaina's words. Read what JAINA said at throne room and in Dalaran.

I have and it is important how she speaks as well and as a result I agree with Velen. Jaina is simply a warmonger nowadays.

[Highwhale]

I have and it is important how she speaks as well and as a result I agree with Velen. Jaina is simply a warmonger nowadays.

Well then its Your interpretation. Jaina said zero words about going full war on Horde. She just didn't wanted ally with them again.

[Combatbutler]

Well then its Your interpretation. Jaina said zero words about going full war on Horde. She just didn't wanted ally with them again.

Considering that little gem I disagree.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Have you forgotten the Horde's treachery? It's time to bring them to heel like the dogs they are!

It would have been epic if Rogers had dropped that line and not flip flop Jaina.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well then its Your interpretation. Jaina said zero words about going full war on Horde. She just didn't wanted ally with them again.

Spoken just like someone who knows maybe 50% of the facts. she's calling to go to war in stormwind after broken shore.

[Mehrunes]

Garrosh couldn't do what he did if Thrall didn't gave him power of Warchief. I made it clear?

You making it clear doesn't make it any less stupid. At best it's clearly stupid. Thrall made a monumental mistake when he chose Garrosh but it's Garrosh who's responsible for his own actions. He was a big boy.

Don't exaggerate. It was battle like hundred others. Name me something similar to Wrathgate when A/H fighting the same enemy and some Horde scum destroy everything.

Burning Legion-aligned traitors to the Horde, the Horde, what's the difference

It's Velens interpretation of Jaina's words. Read what JAINA said at throne room and in Dalaran.

As has been pointed out to you already, her first comment about it was how the Alliance needs to bring the Horde to heel. More reading, less lying please.

Are you stupid? No seriously. AFTER Broken Shore Alliance and Horde wasn't allies anymore. Its confirmed by what Anduin gave Genn approval to attack Forsaken if it will be needed and Sylvanas words what Alliance will want revenge for what they did at Broken Shore.

First of all, that was Lor'themar's words. And as I said in previous post, he didn't mention anything about this revenge being aimed at the Horde and not, you know, the Legion that killed Varian. As for Genn, the situation in Stormheim start didn't make it needed to attack the Forsaken in the first place, and Anduin semi-approval or not, it doesn't change the fact that it was the Alliance that issued hostilities while the Horde didn't give a crap about the Alliance. Them not being allies is irrelevant and, lo and behold, I haven't said they were allies at the time, but them not being allies doesn't make it comparable to Broken Front still. At least pretend you're capable of reading comprehension.

How about to clean your mouth with soap? I can give you one.

Eyes* They burn after reading your nonsense.

Again - you stupid? Because i can't understand you silly logic. Onyxia was under disguise when Varimathas is not. Also - Onyxias/Defias actions affected only Alliance.

Yeah, sure, the Horde aligned Ogres whose village was destroyed by Onyxia were secretly Alliance. And disguise or not it's still a failure on Alliance's part, with all their SI:7 operatives, to not detect anything.

Oh wait Worgens ask before do it and people go to them themselves. Not like Forsaken. Woah.

First quest of post-Cata Forsaken questline. Even that is beyond your grasp apparently.

Bullshit.

Mass murder is simply murder of multiple people, more specifically in relatively the same area and at the same time (area to differentiate it from spree killing and time to differentiate it from serial killing). Key word being murder. I.e. unlawful killing of a person. You don't commit murder by killing enemies during war. Even when they are civilians, that's covered by different, more specific crimes that fall under the umbrella of war crimes. Instead of calling bullshit on things you have even less of a clue than you do on Warcraft lore, how about you educate yourself. And again, don't use words you don't understand.

Okay i will explain for such dumb personal like you. Putricide was high ranked Forsaken. He was working on new plague with Sylvanas approval. He was working with Varimathas. And who the fuck so stupid to put Dreadlord at his command? Right its Sylvanas. Wrathgate is result of Sylvanas failing at keep HER (Horde) dogs at leash. So since Sylvanas is Horde its Horde's fault. Got it?

Putricide has never been a Forsaken. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you don't even have a clue as far as persons are considered? And your reasoning is fucking dogshit. Wrathgate happened already after the coup in Undercity. These individuals were already enemies of the Horde at the Wrathgate. Sylvanas picked people badly, that doesn't mean their actions after they rebelled and became her enemies are her fault.

Spoken just like someone who knows maybe 50% of the facts. she's calling to go to war in stormwind after broken shore.

Don't exaggerate.

5% would already be an overstatement.

[Highwhale]

Thrall made a monumental mistake when he chose Garrosh but it's Garrosh who's responsible for his own actions. He was a big boy.

Thrall knew what Garrosh will lead Horde to war with Alliance and still put warmonger in Warchief position. Thrall responsible for Garrosh's actions at same rate as Garrosh himself.

Yeah, sure, the Horde aligned Ogres whose village was destroyed by Onyxia were secretly Alliance. And disguise or not it's still a failure on Alliance's part, with all their SI:7 operatives, to not detect anything.

Alliance gave Onyxia to turn in dragon and breath flame? Your argument about burned Ogre village is stupid as fuck. Also about detect part - Sylvanas doesn't even was need to detect something to see Dreadlord and STILL she had enough stupidity to set him in command.

First quest of post-Cata Forsaken questline. Even that is beyond your grasp apparently.

Stop playing dumb. Worgens ask BEFORE turn people into Worgen. Forsaken turn people into Undead and THEN ask.

Mass murder is simply murder of multiple people, more specifically in relatively the same area and at the same time (area to differentiate it from spree killing and time to differentiate it from serial killing). Key word being murder. I.e. unlawful killing of a person. You don't commit murder by killing enemies during war. Even when they are civilians, that's covered by different, more specific crimes that fall under the umbrella of war crimes. Instead of calling bullshit on things you have even less of a clue than you do on Warcraft lore, how about you educate yourself. And again, don't use words you don't understand.

We play terminology game?

Putricide has never been a Forsaken.

Why i still talking with this man. Haha.

Sylvanas picked people badly, that doesn't mean their actions after they rebelled and became her enemies are her fault.

You responsible for your people. Its leaders job.

[Combatbutler]

Why i still talking with this man. Haha.

Putricide, never was a forsaken, he always has been a member of the scourge and was put down in Icrecrown.

You mean Putress

[Aquamonkey]

So Jaina shouldn't even try to port them? If the legion could usurp the spell, why don't they just show that happening? Instead we get Jaina disappearing altogether. There's also the distinct possibility Iliidan is overestimating his opponent. Unless someone has already performed such a feat.

This isn't some unknown ability. It has actually happened in lore, Rhonin redirected Jaina's portal from Theramore. The Mogu built portal redirect traps.

Mannoroth far surpassed the NElves in magical knowledge, Illidan included. They were basically depicted as children compared to the Legion commanders. Illidan knew that this kind of thing was possible and that someone like Mannoroth would be easily capable of doing it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Why i still talking with this man. Haha.

Probably because you constantly make mistakes and they call you out on it. Putricide was a boss in ICC.

[Aquamonkey]

You responsible for your people. Its leaders job.

They were no longer her people. It'd be like blaming Baine for anything the Grimtotems do once they left.

[anaxie]

If helya is queen of the underworld valkyr who is not to say sylvanas does t get them after helyas death

[Mehrunes]

Thrall knew what Garrosh will lead Horde to war with Alliance and still put warmonger in Warchief position. Thrall responsible for Garrosh's actions at same rate as Garrosh himself.

Using war as your justification for blaming Thrall here is you shooting yourself in the foot given how the Alliance started the war.

Alliance gave Onyxia to turn in dragon and breath flame? Your argument about burned Ogre village is stupid as fuck. Also about detect part - Sylvanas doesn't even was need to detect something to see Dreadlord and STILL she had enough stupidity to set him in command.

The Horde didn't ask Varimathras to betray Sylvanas and Blight bomb the shit out of Wrathgate either. Try to tone down the double standards. I mean, what happened to "You're responsible for your people"? Does that not apply to Stormwind being responsible for the leader of its house of nobles? Also, so what that detecting part doesn't apply to Forsaken? Did I say the two events are completely analogous? Nope. Read what's actually said, not what you conjure up.

Stop playing dumb. Worgens ask BEFORE turn people into Worgen. Forsaken turn people into Undead and THEN ask.

Because it's impossible to ask someone when they are dead. Probably because corpses aren't people.

We play terminology game?

Considering how you used incorrect words to push your lorebending narrative, I corrected you on it and you called bullshit, yes? Keep up. The context was clear here.

Why i still talking with this man. Haha.

Because you still have no clue what you're talking about. Putress. Putricide. Spot the difference. Hint: there's a reason why I mentioned you not having a clue extending even to the persons talked about.

You responsible for your people. Its leaders job.

Not to the degree you're (very selectively because you're dishonest like that) trying to force here. And they stopped being her people when they committed a coup against her, which happened before Wrathgate. They can't be both her people and her enemies at the same time.

If helya is queen of the underworld valkyr who is not to say sylvanas does t get them after helyas death

Most likely outcome in my opinion.

[shadowblazr]

To be honest Genn was pretty tame at the end of Stormheim. Sure at the beginning the Alliance are being dicks basically looking for trouble, but at the end Genn makes it a priority to stop Sylvanas from trapping Eyir (or whatever it was she was doing). He put himself in danger to prevent her from doing something that could have had huge consequences.

Personally I don't think we will see an end to their conflict any time soon if at all until one of them dies for good.

[anaxie]

To be honest Genn was pretty tame at the end of Stormheim. Sure at the beginning the Alliance are being dicks basically looking for trouble, but at the end Genn makes it a priority to stop Sylvanas from trapping Eyir (or whatever it was she was doing). He put himself in danger to prevent her from doing something that could have had huge consequences.

Personally I don't think we will see an end to their conflict any time soon if at all until one of them dies for good.

Or sh . Helya dies... Today. And we get the conclusion to the story arc.

If sylvanas were to have the valkyr from helhiem follower her and dominion over the shadow lands. She would I suspect be immortal WITHOUT valkyr