Talent system is a failure

[Anastacy]

Is the system broke, or are the talents just not always competitive choices?

[munkeyinorbit]

...Because I'm quite sure you never actually played with the Old Talent Trees if you're saying that...

hahahaha.

I love it when newcomers to the game try to "talk shop" about WotLK or earlier. It is cute but it also makes them look stupid as well.

[Wavebossa]

Why must everything be black or white? I'm choosing the middle road. It would be nice to have three talents in one row offering two talents that are close to eachother and one talent that offers utility that could be valuable to the raid due to a mechanic or boost survivability or the raid. (The 'lesser' choice) For example, 3 talents, 2 which boosts a big boost to dps but the third talent reversing time 10 seconds sp that it negates a possible wipe with a 15m cd. The problem with making everything viable is that I don't want to invest that much effort in time to experiment, where 'that' is exploring every single combination of your entire talentbase.

We also have to acknowledge that there is a difference in mindset between hardcore raiders and 'the others'. We can't favor one group over the other in this debate.

Which is why you have a tiered approach. 1 Tier all dps options, 1 tier all mitigation, 1 tier all wipe prevention etc etc.

You shouldn't be choosing between Ascendance and Spirit Walkers Grace

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Is the system broke, or are the talents just not always competitive choices?

System isn't broke, just 66% of the talents

[Alvito]

"an optimal build and you ignore the rest"

Actually, I regularly tell my raiders to not play with certain "optimal" talents because they can't execute them well. I'd rather they use a passive that's 1% behind "optimal" than fail at the best and lose 5%.

Ah ues, don't try because I expect you to fail. Luckily for many specs the optimal build is passive abilities. In some cases you don't change anything in others it is only to go from single target to aoe.

[Mawnix]

hahahaha.

I love it when newcomers to the game try to "talk shop" about WotLK or earlier. It is cute but it also makes them look stupid as well.

Yawn. /10char

[Ladyoftheforest]

hmm I don't remember ordering anyone to do anything...

Hmm.. "But you should be finding better raiders, not lowering standards because they're sub par"

are you perhaps touchy feely about this?

Nah, just wanted to use you as example of how selfcentred and narrow minded people can be.

I don't get this "playing for fun while failing is fun" argument

Once you do understand this, you'll feel much more sensible.

[omeomorfismo]

No one's advocating for the old talent tree. We are saying the new talent tree was introduced under the guise of "removing cookie cutter specs" and has failed completely in that regard.

Specs are far more cookie cutter now than they have ever been. Anyone who has played BC and Wrath knows this

oh,BC, the good old times where rogues are combat, combat, then combat and, surprise, combat!
or wotlk where you were locked to assa single target and combat aoe...
with maybe 2 talents that werent mandatory...

[Deleted]

I change talents more now than ever. Boss mechanics, PvP and Mythic+ (and it's affixes), and to some extent Legendaries can all have an effect on what you choose. Just look at the Resto Druid Mythic+ advice thread as an example there's lots of discussion over builds.

I never ever had that freedom with the old system. Never.

[Dendin]

I don't get this "playing for fun while failing is fun" argument

We have different definitions of "failing", apparently. We kill bosses, we work to improve our performance, we progress, we have fun with each other.

[Ladyoftheforest]

Which is why you have a tiered approach. 1 Tier all dps options, 1 tier all mitigation, 1 tier all wipe prevention etc etc.

You shouldn't be choosing between Ascendance and Spirit Walkers Grace

What if we break away from the tiers and give every talent row 2 dps and 1 useful utlity talent

[niil945]

Old talent trees were removed because there was never a "choice" there was always a optimal build.

Its been years with the new talent system, the goal was to give players a choice and step away from "cookie cutter builds"....and really besides a few instance its been 90% the same...there was an optimal build and you ignore the rest.

So in that sense...the talent system is a failure.

I don't want the developers wasting time "trying to make a each talent tier" a viable choice. Its time to bake the talents in...re-balance and move on. This feature has failed to its original goal.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: i am not advocating to bring back the old system...just the new system do not solve the old system flaws of cookie cutter builds. Please note cookie cutter builds can change per boss or per style pve/pvp/dungeon etc...the issue is choice is an illusion.

There is a world of choice here in comparison to the previous iterations of talent builds for all 4 of my 110's. It's certainly not perfect, but if you think it's exactly the same you're just looking back with rose colored glasses.

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What if we break away from the tiers and give every talent row 2 dps and 1 useful utlity talent

That's exactly the opposite of his suggestion. His point was any row with a damage increase and anything else is going to result in people feeling forced to choose the best damage increase.

[Banard]

**insert all your post**

First sorry for the upcoming spam...a few post i want to respond too...but to you overall. I see you enjoy the new talent system...i see you like "switching" here and there and every which way.

How will baking the talents into your spec be any different? You still will use abilities when you need too...you still will have all the options...you just don't need to "choose the illusion" for this participial moment.

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There is a world of choice here in comparison to the previous iterations of talent builds for all 4 of my 110's. It's certainly not perfect, but if you think it's exactly the same you're just looking back with rose colored glasses.

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That's exactly the opposite of his suggestion. His point was any row with a damage increase and anything else is going to result in people feeling forced to choose the best damage increase.

re-read everything. I'll re-hatch it for you...old talent trees sucked big monkey rainbows and were horrible. New talents trees are better but still suck big monkey rainbows and are horrible.

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dude i can barely hear you over the echo of "cant swap talents for free" cries from two months ago.

I play a hunter and changed a talent once....so no i can care less fore "free swaps" ...i do care about time wasted cause people are cheap and have to hearth and get re-summon...that is annoying.

[Dietrik]

To play optimally most specs will change talents in a full clear of any raid, however you can play with a cookie cutter spec also and do well on all fights.

I change talents less than i did in WoD, but i still change them frequently enough to require tomes in my bags.

[Banard]

Character customization in all its aspects is core gameplay for me. Each time a create a new toon it takes ages, I spend a lot of my game time on xmogs and yes, talents are a huge thing for me in MMOs.

the point is the talents are not customisation...the point in you can select the talents you want to "have fun", your the minority...most people swap because it is ideal for a certain situation.

and under no circumstances does baking abilities in and removing the talents remove the fun for you. You still get the "fun talents" .

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To play optimally most specs will change talents in a full clear of any raid, however you can play with a cookie cutter spec also and do well on all fights.

I change talents less than i did in WoD, but i still change them frequently enough to require tomes in my bags.

and is that fun?

[Wavebossa]

oh,BC, the good old times where rogues are combat, combat, then combat and, surprise, combat!
or wotlk where you were locked to assa single target and combat aoe...
with maybe 2 talents that werent mandatory...

Literally the first words in the post you quoted were "No one is advocating for the old talent tree"

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What if we break away from the tiers and give every talent row 2 dps and 1 useful utlity talent

Those are still tiers...

[Ladyoftheforest]

That's exactly the opposite of his suggestion. His point was any row with a damage increase and anything else is going to result in people feeling forced to choose the best damage increase.

The point of my suggestion is to give enough incentive to choose any of the 3. From a general perspective it would mean that a casual can choose to equip her/himself better to tackle content. Choosing any of the 3 talents that would bolster you or negate weaknesses of your own gameplay. It's adaptation would mean more tailormade builds. For a raider it would give your raidleader options to consider since you bring utility to the raid. This will also ease pressure to perform or get kicked.

[Banard]

Why is the system a failure when I just mentioned talents that are viable and players of all levels take them? If there are talents that are not useful, it's up to Blizzard to fix them. If certain talents are too mandatory, then as the developers mentioned in the Blizzcon panel, they may consider making them baseline.

What system WOULD YOU propose that supposedly offers true choice to the player?

I propose baking them in and removing them all together. Then focus on spec balance and class balance without it being convoluted with talent choices.

At the minimum...trees should only be utility abilities that have 0 impact on #'s but impact game play a lot.

[K4sk]

Stop always whining. It's absolutely stupid to stand there and talk about "failures".

Overall people are swapping talents way more often than it was the case with the old system, so I really don't see how you can seriously try to make sense of out calling the system a failure.

Also, I don't even want to change talents every 5 friggin' minutes. Nobody wants that.

It's not about whining, it's about communicating what didn't hit the right spot. The talent system is awful, simple as. Having to decide between doing semi decent AOE or absolutely none but slightly more single target is a really bad design when multiple classes deal insane aoe without any investment at all.

[Banard]

The point of my suggestion is to give enough incentive to choose any of the 3. From a general perspective it would mean that a casual can choose to equip her/himself better to tackle content. Choosing any of the 3 talents that would bolster you or negate weaknesses of your own gameplay. It's adaptation would mean more tailormade builds. For a raider it would give your raidleader options to consider since you bring utility to the raid. This will also ease pressure to perform or get kicked.

but that is the issue...that is blizzard goal..and since the introduction never truly materialised. Instead we have these game designers trying to balance classes/specs and talents. removing the talents is one less thing to balance.

[Mafic]

Legion talent trees are a failure because it makes you choose between single target or AoE. That is dumb.

That isn't promoting "choice" as you are just switching to what you need not necessarily what you want (eg utility).

MoP Alpha talent trees were flawed but at least were on the right track for utility choices.