Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Shiftzor]

we killed it 874/875

[meleth]

I said about the same thing about heroic TOV seeming to be harder than the first 4? maybe bosses in mythic EN. I Would say on a difficulty scale it almost rivals mythic EN maybe even on that level

I would agree with that. My guild is only 3/7M so far but we were surprised by the level of difficulty of heroic Odyn. We went in expecting something.. very different, lol. Our schedule was actually "knock out heroic ToV and then head to mythic" hahaha, live and learn.

[Anonymitylol]

Made an account just to comment on this, People saying its fine is silly.

My guild is 7/7 mythic EN at rank 647, We went into Trial HC on the day of release at EU and even killed Helya HC as rank 31 world, (Check "Pure Luck" at wow progress, Cant post links at the moment since my first account"

Saying this our Helya kill was the lowest average item level ANY group had killed Helya HC at (876) and thats still 1 item level higher than she drops.

We had 24 wipes on Helya HC, Which is TWICE as many as we had on killing Xavius mythic, I dont get how people can argue that this is tuned correctly and this is coming from a semi-hardcore mythic raider.

Odyn was fine for us, but seeing as we overgeared it i dont get why it shouldnt be, If we was 10 ilevels lower i bet this fight would be alot harder.
Guarm is actually pretty balanced tuning wise tho.
Then we got to helya and the dps needed to get past p2 in 2 add waves was high, Even higher than Ursoc mythic, And p3 is complete clusterfuck, we had the dps to be able to push without killing the 2nd add. But since this boss drops 875 ilevel and our average was 876 (at the time still lowest ilevel group to kill the boss) its very much very overtuned, this is suppose to be killable by pure Heroic guilds going in at ilevel of 865 and i cant see how that is currently possible at all. If Mythic is tuned the way heroic is i dont see how many guilds even at 7/7M EN will have a chance for now.

People stop being idiots, Yes Helya Heroic is doable but not for the targeted guilds that is suppose to do it.

I have been reading this forums for years but i just had to create an account to add this.

First heroic kills for end bosses have always been "harder." It seems you may be new to mythic raiding, which is fine. But blackhand, imperator, archimonde(Just naming prev xpac bosses) all were pretty rough first heroic fights, and then Blizzard nerfs them.

You also seem to forget, heroic raiders do exist. They have their own progression, and Mythic EN was god awful under-tuned, and Blizzard acknowledged it. You seem to be a bit delusional or misinformed(either or) if you believe Heroic ToV or even Helya is overtuned. Guilds will gear up and kill her, that's it.

[Deleted]

The only thing that is overtuned imo is Helya. That fight is arguable harder on heroic than most encounters in Emerald Nightmare on Mythic.

[LolretKJ]

Took a few tries and overtuned? Does not compute.

All 3 bosses will be a walk in the park on hc.

How you feel about this comment now?

[Fabinas]

48 fragments? I got 47. Honestly, I don't see myself doing tov every week

Given you can get 14 from the WQ, it is truly a ridiculous reward.

[Tehterokkar]

How you feel about this comment now?

Seeing as we cleared ToV HC already with both split raids and cleared EN Mythic with 1st split raid in 2 days of raiding, I will still say the bosses are easy mechanically.

[Deleted]

To answer this question it is important to know what point of reference you are using to decide how well the tuning turned out. If you take EN as a reference point then you will reach the conclusion (and rightly so) that the TOV raid is too difficult. People are comparing Mythic EN with Heroic TOV that alone shows the gap between the two raids. If however you look at other past "End Bosses" in WOD (Emp, Blackhand or Archi) the balancing is not that far off.

My personal opinion is the EN was too easy as a raid. The main culprits for this is the HP % you get from the artifact traits. Nothing in EN Mythic is dangerous, because nothing can "1 shot" you. I think the Devs have noticed this and have maybe "overtuned" the raid damage to make give a raid more ways to wipe you. They may have overshot a little, but I think its nice to have something to do until Nighthold comes out

PS: I did clear TOV and Mythic EN and I think Mythic EN is harder.

[grippo]

My Guild is a heroic only guild we just don't have the numbers to go to mythic although skillwise we most likley could but we are happy with our small setup and it is fun. We have been 7/7HC EN for a while, I would say this is the kind of guild heroic ToV is aimed at.

Normal TOV was pretty simple 1 shot Odyn, 2 shot guaram, 5-6 wipes on Helyda working out the best way to deal with p2 for out setup, p3 was 1shot once we worked out p2. Heroic Odyn honeslty did not seem that bad we never got it but only because we had 20minutes lefts on raid time before when we started on heroic, I would be disappointed if we one shot it like we did several EN bosses we only had 2 attempts and got him down to low 30's on the 2nd pull I cannot see him lasting to many pulls when we go back Sunday, 2nd boss will be the same i beleive we have the dps no doubt about that and awarness is pretty decent. Helya i am looking forward to as that will be a challenge

[KaPe]

You also seem to forget, heroic raiders do exist. They have their own progression, and Mythic EN was god awful under-tuned, and Blizzard acknowledged it. You seem to be a bit delusional or misinformed(either or) if you believe Heroic ToV or even Helya is overtuned. Guilds will gear up and kill her, that's it.

Where will people get that gear if kills are done in gear superior to what she drops? Why do you include mythic drops into heroic balance? Did you forget that Mythic is static size and other difficulties are not? You can't just suggest that some random <20 man guild farm Mythic EN for a while and then finally go heroic ToV, that's not how it works.

Not to mention your other examples also have issues. Imperator was in the first instance of his expansion, so there was no possibility of outgearing the fight - people didn't just barely kill him while having superior gear. Blackrock Foundry had its entire loot table buffed plus it dropped tier pieces, so it naturally nerfed itself over time - not to mention he was bugged and did more damage than he was supposed to do for certain raid sizes. Archimonde dropped gear which was 15 ilvls higher than the rest of the instance, including special trinkets. And last but not least - those instances had more than three bosses and allowed you to select your kill order to a degree.

I don't think it's really fair to compare Helya to Xavius when Xavius was way undertuned though, at least from all data and I believe even Blizzard acknowledged it.

If they want to compensate for that, they should do it on Mythic difficulty. I didn't see them saying that Heroic EN was a tuning disaster which they want to fix.

[willemh]

Where will people get that gear if kills are done in gear superior to what she drops? Why do you include mythic drops into heroic balance? Did you forget that Mythic is static size and other difficulties are not? You can't just suggest that some random <20 man guild farm Mythic EN for a while and then finally go heroic ToV, that's not how it works.

Not to mention your other examples also have issues. Imperator was in the first instance of his expansion, so there was no possibility of outgearing the fight - people didn't just barely kill him while having superior gear. Blackrock Foundry had its entire loot table buffed plus it dropped tier pieces, so it naturally nerfed itself over time - not to mention he was bugged and did more damage than he was supposed to do for certain raid sizes. Archimonde dropped gear which was 15 ilvls higher than the rest of the instance, including special trinkets. And last but not least - those instances had more than three bosses and allowed you to select your kill order to a degree.
If they want to compensate for that, they should do it on Mythic difficulty. I didn't see them saying that Heroic EN was a tuning disaster which they want to fix.

So you managed to come up with 3 different excuses for 3 different tiers why those final heroic bosses were extremely hard the first weeks and turned out fine tuning wise a bit later, but couldn't think of an excuse for this one? Let me give you some:
1) Legendaries, most casual guilds currently have 0-2 legendaries per person, and likely very few BIS ones. In the coming weeks many more BIS legendaries will be equipped, nerfing the content significantly.
2) Mythic+, drops in higher mythic+ have been buffed. You can now get 885 base ilvl gear from your weekly chest completing (not in time, just completing) a mythic+12. And for the more casual guilds there is 880 base ilvl gear from mythic+10, 875 from M+8 etc.
3) Karazhan, karazhan has been out for a few weeks only, but some items in there are insane (the Aran's trinket is INSANE for Helya for example). There are many extremely powerful drops in there.
4) World quest drops have been increased aswell, and some rewards (devilsaur trinket says hi) are extremely powerful).
5) The whole titanforged system. This system ensured content will nerf itself over time no matter what content you run. Even a heroic only guild should have quite a few 880+ pieces by now, and will continue to get more as they keep farming heroic.

So yes, a heroic only guild that currently is ilvl 865 on average will have PLENTY of alternative sources to gear up for Helya heroic and progress on her for a few weeks untill they kill her. Just like they did for Imperator, just like they did for blackhand, and just as they did for any previous final heroic boss in a tier in any of the previous patches ever released. There really no excuse why Helya should be a pushover killed in a week by most/all heroic guilds.

Ontop of all this, you forget one major thing. The entry raid of an expansion is SUPPOSED to be easier/more accessible due to obvious reasons. Follow up raids are intentionally tuned harder, and always have been. Heroic emerald nightmare is an entry raid, and was tuned as such. There is no way Blizzard wants the tuning of follow up raids to be similar to the entry raid, and they proved this with current tuning of HoV. Expect harder content as the expansion progresses. So the argument 'HoV is tuned harder then EN' sounds really silly in this regard. No shit Sherlock...

[kamuimac]

The only thing that is overtuned imo is Helya. That fight is arguable harder on heroic than most encounters in Emerald Nightmare on Mythic.

soooo basickly " everything what my guild killed is piss easy and tuned correckly and people shoudl git gud but what we couldnt kill is overtuned " eh ?

[cFortyfive]

Where will people get that gear if kills are done in gear superior to what she drops?

Mythic + - the best way to gear.
Helya might have been slightly overtuned without correct raidsetups. I think we had an equal amount of wipes with our first archimonde split iirc.

[VanishO2]

So you managed to come up with 3 different excuses for 3 different tiers why those final heroic bosses were extremely hard the first weeks and turned out fine tuning wise a bit later, but couldn't think of an excuse for this one? Let me give you some:
1) Legendaries, most casual guilds currently have 0-2 legendaries per person, and likely very few BIS ones. In the coming weeks many more BIS legendaries will be equipped, nerfing the content significantly.
2) Mythic+, drops in higher mythic+ have been buffed. You can now get 885 base ilvl gear from your weekly chest completing (not in time, just completing) a mythic+12. And for the more casual guilds there is 880 base ilvl gear from mythic+10, 875 from M+8 etc.
3) Karazhan, karazhan has been out for a few weeks only, but some items in there are insane (the Aran's trinket is INSANE for Helya for example). There are many extremely powerful drops in there.
4) World quest drops have been increased aswell, and some rewards (devilsaur trinket says hi) are extremely powerful).
5) The whole titanforged system. This system ensured content will nerf itself over time no matter what content you run. Even a heroic only guild should have quite a few 880+ pieces by now, and will continue to get more as they keep farming heroic.

So yes, a heroic only guild that currently is ilvl 865 on average will have PLENTY of alternative sources to gear up for Helya heroic and progress on her for a few weeks untill they kill her. Just like they did for Imperator, just like they did for blackhand, and just as they did for any previous final heroic boss in a tier in any of the previous patches ever released. There really no excuse why Helya should be a pushover killed in a week by most/all heroic guilds.

Ontop of all this, you forget one major thing. The entry raid of an expansion is SUPPOSED to be easier/more accessible due to obvious reasons. Follow up raids are intentionally tuned harder, and always have been. Heroic emerald nightmare is an entry raid, and was tuned as such. There is no way Blizzard wants the tuning of follow up raids to be similar to the entry raid, and they proved this with current tuning of HoV. Expect harder content as the expansion progresses. So the argument 'HoV is tuned harder then EN' sounds really silly in this regard. No shit Sherlock...

So basically all the progression is meant to be done by overgearing it? Ok...

And btw, not "always have been" for entry raids and next tiers. Just look back at WoD to see that HM wasn't the case. Normal HM was far harder than what Blizzard said it would be (something you would go right after doing heroic dungeons) and BRF was to the point off needing a buff to it's drops. Yes, they had their problems with the bosses scaling with raid sizes, but both raids were tuning for more than they were rewarding. Even for mythic, people had to go for split raids, alt raids, Black Market AH (to get BRF ilvl gear to do HM), etc. Mostly because they were meant to hold people for months while waiting for 6.2.

Balance is not (and should not be) made around the RNG legendary system (their current system makes you go from ground to sky by just dropping the right piece, they messed up really hard implement half of the D3 system in WoW. D3 throws legs at you to the point where you can chase that one specific for your class to work, WoW does not) and most importantly, it must take into account the ilvl reward from it. It's part of the system that WoW uses of power progression. This time things are going a lot faster for patches, so ToV will be old content even faster, giving way less time to "overgear to finally beat it" before the next one opens.

The model that you and others think it would be based is that you get better gear from a previous boss, to help you beat next. This is not the case here. ToV is a side raid, while we wait for Nighthold (and to compensate for the crazy balance from EN), but no tier bonus here, nothing. Makes no sense to need a higher ilvl to beat a boss that rewards a lower ilvl.

That will be the case of Nighthold as it will introduce tier bonuses, better itemizations (specially for relic traits) for a lot of class/specs, etc. There you can expect having a harder time than EN/ToV even if it's the same tier. The loot will follow it. Unlike HM>BRF.

[Deleted]

The ilv of the gear that HC HoV drops is certainly not rewarding for the difficulty spike from DH hc which is a cakewalk in the same gear (As Enhance theres' only 1 item in there i'd want which makes it even less worth running for anything other than curve).

[Woop Woop]

Good? Why does content have to be steamrolled within the first week? Maybe it could drop a little higher gear, but yeah, I think it's good.

[sweatshopkids]

good enough for me mate. if i can do the first 30% im sure i can do the bloody rest

LFR raider mentality.

[KaPe]

Good? Why does content have to be steamrolled within the first week?

Because people outgear it...? Because it's not Mythic mode? Because the rewards are far too small for the effort involved?

[Deleted]

Because people outgear it...? Because it's not Mythic mode? Because the rewards are far too small for the effort involved?

Which is exactly the reason my guild isn't going back there.
Its 200 times harder then Heroic EN and even most bosses on Mythic EN.
The rewards are mostly shit and to low ilvl for the difficulty.

I don't understand the extreme's, buff them a little compared to EN bosses, no reason to go from easy to fucking stupid within one raid.

[Bombercloner]

I look forward to the moment Mythic ToV drops and all of the hero 7/7M EN guilds (Not the elite guilds, but the other guilds that are 7/7) cry that it is over tuned. The same guys saying 'get gewd lul casual' will be wiping on M odyn for weeks and when they finally kill it the boss won't drop any useful loot. FeelsGoodMan