Ion on brewmasters

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For fear of inviting ridicule, I didn't pick up BrM until Warlords.
What was so good about Clash? It looks fun, but it just seemed like a taunt into Leg Sweep.

Dave or Haze coming back baseline would be amazing, hopefully it arrives in the patch where they add class utility back.

I mained Monk in early MoP - Clash was not all that at all. Taunt into Leg Sweep is a good analogy, if Leg Sweep was single target.

The one good thing about Clash is that it was half a Charge, and that's it.

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From that Ion quote:
-Brewmaster is very strong right now
-Not dying is what tanking is all about
-good cooldowns
-can survive things that no other tank can survive

These are the things that I have a problem with. And no, not accepting the current state, wanting the class to improve is not whining, however hard you try to label it so.

He's not wrong about "not dying" and "can survive things others can't". He's also only half wrong about "good cooldowns" (there's only one good cooldown).

Yeah Monks take more DPS, but that's the point. They take more damage over time but they take very little to no spikes. The design is aimed mainly at raids where there's several healers and tanks can die in seconds I'm sure, but a tank that dies less is a better tank.

IF BrM required as much healing as the damage-spike-heavy tanks (mainly DHs, DKs, Paladins), they'd be objectively superior.

I don't think BrM is perfect or even perfectly on par with the others, but maybe there's an outlier of tanks that are too strong rather than BrM being too weak. That and QoL issues for Monk (no baseline spammable AoE threat tool for one).

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Classes should not be balanced around m+15 and the hardest bosses of Mythic raiding.

On the other hand, classes should be (more or less) balanced FOR it.

[Flurryfang]

I mained Monk in early MoP - Clash was not all that at all. Taunt into Leg Sweep is a good analogy, if Leg Sweep was single target.

The one good thing about Clash is that it was half a Charge, and that's it.

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He's not wrong about "not dying" and "can survive things others can't". He's also only half wrong about "good cooldowns" (there's only one good cooldown).

Yeah Monks take more DPS, but that's the point. They take more damage over time but they take very little to no spikes. The design is aimed mainly at raids where there's several healers and tanks can die in seconds I'm sure, but a tank that dies less is a better tank.

IF BrM required as much healing as the damage-spike-heavy tanks (mainly DHs, DKs, Paladins), they'd be objectively superior.

I don't think BrM is perfect or even perfectly on par with the others, but maybe there's an outlier of tanks that are too strong rather than BrM being too weak. That and QoL issues for Monk (no baseline spammable AoE threat tool for one).

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On the other hand, classes should be (more or less) balanced FOR it.

Ofcourse, they should be balanced so, that every single piece of content i do able for them and i think that has been proven

[Targom]

I mained Monk in early MoP - Clash was not all that at all. Taunt into Leg Sweep is a good analogy, if Leg Sweep was single target.

The one good thing about Clash is that it was half a Charge, and that's it.

Clash was not single target stun if used correctly, the Clash itself was an AE stun wherever you and the target collided. It was definitely possible to pull a pack, Clash a caster when the pack was halfway to you and stun the whole thing. Though it did have bugs like the mob could start casting a spell mid Clash animation and end the Clash.

[Sevyvia]

Did you guys see the most recent Q+A Ion did? What he said about brewmaster is interesting.

"Brewmaster Monks have a community perspective problem. People aren't as familiar with your spec, so they go with someone else rather than "taking a risk". Brewmaster is very strong right now, they just feel different than other tanks. Brewmasters smooth out incoming damage so much, so even if they take a little more damage, it is taken in a way that is predictable. They have incredibly high survival. Healers feel like they can't top off Brewmasters, but they aren't actually dying. Not dying is what tanking is all about. They have great mobility, solid control, good cooldowns, can survive things that no other tank can survive. There may be a high skill cap to playing Brewmaster correctly and no one wants to take a risk. It is the same situation when players decline players with adequate gear for a dungeon in favor of someone with even better gear. People want a smooth run and it is only natural to form a group that has the highest likelihood of success. You should take that risk on Brewmasters."

I'd have to say I agree with him 100%. We honestly are in a pretty good spot and we can definitely survive many things that other tanks just cannot, especially if you pause your stagger with BoC. The things that you can survive doing that is absurd.

What do you guys think about what he said?

I am not a Brewmaster or even Monk player, so I can't say that I know the intricacies of the spec. However, as a healer and tank player both, I'd say it's easy to fall into thinking that tanking is all about not dying. I mean, yeah, that is what tanking is about if you really want to cut to the bone. But perception isn't just about that. As a healer, I hate healing Brewmasters the most even if DKs and DHs spike super hard and Brewmasters don't, necessarily.

Really, the reason for that is that an integral part of Brewmaster survival, Stagger, actively fights against me as a healer. This is annoying on a good day, and super annoying if you should be trying to top someone off in anticipation of a huge hit of some sort. Heck, as a Holy Priest with a mastery that overheals more on any other tank than Brewmasters I should be happy, but I'd still pick pretty much any other tank over a Brewmaster, no matter how much Ion Hazzikostas says that Brewmasters are actually really strong right now.

You may now crucify me, I guess.

[Deleted]

(...)
You may now crucify me, I guess.

I usually ask healers for their feedback on healing me. I have been told repeatedly I was easy to heal - "smooth" was the word used mostly. In a similar fashion, I was told the same on my DK (10ilvl and 10artifact traits smaller, but tanking lower M+).
Maybe I should start adding that I am looking for serious feedback and no ego-strokes? Or maybe it's about the players? Or maybe they attempted content they were not ready for (in terms of gear, stats, skill, talents, artifact) yet?

[Dreyen]

Classes should not be balanced around m+15 and the hardest bosses of Mythic raiding.

are you seriously suggesting its ok for tanks to not be able to not be able to do some content, requiring those players to sit forever on said content and let other people do it? I can't even..

[Deathzero]

Looks like its highly unlikely they will be buffing tank dmg. Instead most likely nerfing other tanks. Seems devs think tank dmg is too high currently

[Sevyvia]

I usually ask healers for their feedback on healing me. I have been told repeatedly I was easy to heal - "smooth" was the word used mostly. In a similar fashion, I was told the same on my DK (10ilvl and 10artifact traits smaller, but tanking lower M+).
Maybe I should start adding that I am looking for serious feedback and no ego-strokes? Or maybe it's about the players? Or maybe they attempted content they were not ready for (in terms of gear, stats, skill, talents, artifact) yet?

I should say that it wasn't hard. Probably a bit easier than the spikes of (some?) DKs/DHs, really. But more annoying, definitely. Just not harder.

[A dot Ham]

Did you guys see the most recent Q+A Ion did? What he said about brewmaster is interesting.

"Brewmaster Monks have a community perspective problem. People aren't as familiar with your spec, so they go with someone else rather than "taking a risk". Brewmaster is very strong right now, they just feel different than other tanks. Brewmasters smooth out incoming damage so much, so even if they take a little more damage, it is taken in a way that is predictable. They have incredibly high survival. Healers feel like they can't top off Brewmasters, but they aren't actually dying. Not dying is what tanking is all about. They have great mobility, solid control, good cooldowns, can survive things that no other tank can survive. There may be a high skill cap to playing Brewmaster correctly and no one wants to take a risk. It is the same situation when players decline players with adequate gear for a dungeon in favor of someone with even better gear. People want a smooth run and it is only natural to form a group that has the highest likelihood of success. You should take that risk on Brewmasters."

I'd have to say I agree with him 100%. We honestly are in a pretty good spot and we can definitely survive many things that other tanks just cannot, especially if you pause your stagger with BoC. The things that you can survive doing that is absurd.

What do you guys think about what he said?

I pretty much stopped tanking altogether when they adopted the active mitigation concept as a play style. (bad tank... i'll admit it)

So I can't say much on the tanking role/mechanics, nor could I say much about the Brewmaster spec, because if I don't play it, and I don't play it correctly... how would I know?

But I think this statement says a lot:

Brewmaster Monks have a community perspective problem. People aren't as familiar with your spec

That is a design problem. Monks have been under represented since inception.

I think there are several factors to that.

(1) Outside of MoP monks still don't feel like they fit within Azeroth, or the rest of the world. IMO and others feel this way they feel very much out of place.

(2) Performance. If Monk's (any spec) totally kicked ass (pun not intended) you would have a lot of people, fotm or otherwise, switching over. They haven't ever really been amazing, and so they are under represented.

(3) Is really a problem with roles. Introducing new roles the raiding design, offers opportunity for specialization.

Also this is kind of an interesting/non sequitur argument:

There may be a high skill cap to playing Brewmaster correctly and no one wants to take a risk. It is the same situation when players decline players with adequate gear for a dungeon in favor of someone with even better gear. People want a smooth run and it is only natural to form a group that has the highest likelihood of success. You should take that risk on Brewmasters.

The majority of this segment he talks about mechanics, reaffirming players that the mechanics in place are not only sufficient (possibly above par). But when you make the statement that there is a "high skill cap to be played correctly" the mechanics almost don't matter anymore. If the player can't perform, the mechanics are irrelevant. Keep reading I'll explain. Players choose a player with better gear over a player with adequate gear because it is something they can control. In that type of group selection there is always the variable of whether or not the player will be skilled enough. Sometimes mechanics and gear will fill in the gaps left by poorly skilled players. In the case of Brewmasters, when Ion says there is a "high skill cap" he is saying that the gear/mechanics will NOT carry the player through if their performance/skill is sub par. He is actually reaffirming the collective communities decisions NOT to bring Brewmasters. Because if you aren't good... the run is going to go poorly, and there is virtually zero way for someone forming a PuG to know whether or not someone is sufficiently skilled to make bringing them worthwhile.

Going back to my original point (that this is a design problem) it is up to designers to change community perspective. He throws it on the community like it is our/their fault... and quite frankly that's a shitty move. Perception is reality, and if the community perceives Brewmasters (or all Monks for that matter) are shit... YOU (the designer) need to do something to convince them otherwise.

[amythist]

unless I'm missing something, being as I rarely play BrM lately, but I thought the 2 big complaints most BrM had were

1) we don't bring any unique utility unlike other tanks

2) we have to work harder/more complex rotation, to get the same sort of performance as other tanks

you could probably add in that our lack of real mitigation and/or self healing makes it a much weaker spec to solo in than other tanks as well but that's less of an issue

[Radio]

you could probably add in that our lack of real mitigation and/or self healing makes it a much weaker spec to solo in than other tanks as well but that's less of an issue

Obstinate determination pretty much covers you off in solo content, it at least gets me through heroic WoD content and potentially mythic.

[Slatch]

you could probably add in that our lack of real mitigation and/or self healing makes it a much weaker spec to solo in than other tanks as well but that's less of an issue

People need to get off this idea that BrM have poor self healing. We have clunky self healing, and it's much harder to use correctly than other tanks, but it is there.

Last week's world boss, Shar'thos, was pulled in a group finder raid with no healers present. I had the boss taken off of me sometimes to clear stacks, usually around 3. But I never died. Tanked it the majority of the time.

Had my healer die in a +10 last week, on tyrannical. Did a good chunk of the boss fight without a healer, just gaming OD. While I don't always like the gameplay, it still is there to be used.

[Saberstrike]

If you have to explain to your community that 'Guys, its a good spec, the people you're playing with are just playing wrong with you!' then you should probably go back to the drawing board.

That philosophy doesn't work in a game where 80%+ of content is lfg / pugs.

[Deleted]

MAYBE (just ... maybe?) the class/spec is (in it's current form) not suited to the expectations of the whiners? Might that be the reason they prefer to whine and complain instead of taking on board what a BMonk has to offer / can do?
MAYBE (just ... maybe?) the BMonk is (in it's current form) not suited for anonymous puging experience? MAYBE the best BMonks do not rely on puging for their WoW-experience but instead on guilds/friends? In such a case, the guild/friends know the skills the player has or doesn't and know s/he will play to their potential?

This is where I am with my BMonk. I pug only LFR and RHC. I pug m0 only when I start the group and can choose the rest. I don't pug m+ and surely not when it's my key.
I also know the players in my guild and their skills. I know some can take a fresh dinged char and severely outperform others (way higher ilvl, artifact, etc.) in the same M+ - the class/spec usually does NOT matter really. Usually raiders on their smallfry alts outperform "filthy casuals" on their mains. It's not about if someone is currently raiding, but rather if s/he has the raider mindset - slackers aren't welcome in progress raiding, so they are left with "filthy casual content". That content houses so many slackers already, that they prefer classes which even when played in a slackery way will achieve their slackerish goals.

BMonk doesn't fit there. "Too many buttons to press, too clunky, too whatever, not enough blahblah."

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That philosophy doesn't work in a game where 80%+ of content is lfg / pugs.

I'm sorry if you're part of that world. It's not my WoW experience. I hope you can get out of that hell some day.

[Deleted]

(2) Performance. If Monk's (any spec) totally kicked ass (pun not intended) you would have a lot of people, fotm or otherwise, switching over. They haven't ever really been amazing, and so they are under represented.

I disagree entirely here. WW Monks are more than fine, they are good and competative. They are however, underrepresented.

MAYBE (just ... maybe?) the class/spec is (in it's current form) not suited to the expectations of the whiners?

You forfeited the entire discussion by your oppening sentence. Calling people with legit concerns (from their point of view) whiners makes the rest of whatever you wrote irrelevant.



The fact that monks are not played widely. The fact that brew monks are PERCEIVED as bad/subpar. The fact that half of the allready few players who play brew are finding the spec not-fun. THAT should be reason enough to delve into why all these facts are so. Waving all these facts away as: " but they are whiners" and/or "they don't understand the class/spec" is just ridiculous and quite frankly shows an immature stance on dealing with concerns.

[Deleted]

Most people who enjoy their BM don't come here to complain or post at all. You're all assuring eachother that you are right. The true sign of an immature stance is the expectation that EVERYTHING is for EVERYBODY and EVERYONE deserves a medal just for being there and trying, no matter their performance measured against others or own progress. Well - no. Some people suck, some people slack, some people have ego issues.
I appreciate however the few people I meet in WoW who start off as slackers and then really L2P their class. They shine. The whiners don't. Ever.

[Deleted]

Really, the reason for that is that an integral part of Brewmaster survival, Stagger, actively fights against me as a healer. This is annoying on a good day, and super annoying if you should be trying to top someone off in anticipation of a huge hit of some sort. Heck, as a Holy Priest with a mastery that overheals more on any other tank than Brewmasters I should be happy, but I'd still pick pretty much any other tank over a Brewmaster, no matter how much Ion Hazzikostas says that Brewmasters are actually really strong right now.

You may now crucify me, I guess.

Right, but that is exactly the problem of not fully understanding how to heal a BRM. Thinking that you NEED to top them off before a big hit. They will take a lot less initial damage from that hard hit you are anticipating than another tank would, and in most cases if you're playing with a BRM that has some idea what they are doing they will even purify some of that damage so you never have to heal it to begin with. If you as the healer knows a big hit is coming, chances are the tank knows as well and will make your job easier by extending their stagger, purifying a big hit that would put stagger into heavy damage, or even pausing the stagger damage to a time where there is less damage going out if they have combo talent (which they should in most cases as its the best talent for any fight where your stagger isn't in heavy damage for most of the fight)

I can certainly understand that it would be annoying for some that you have to change the way you heal the tank because of their class, but if you do take the time to adjust when you have a BRM in your group i'm sure you will find how much easier they actually are to heal when you can for the most part heal the tank at the same rate, rather than having to switch it up with burst healing for big hits.

I think the flaw here is that most healers feels that they have to play whack a mole with hp bars topping everyone off at all times which is exactly what they said prior to this expansion they wanted to avoid again. It is perfectly fine for a tank to sit around 60-80% hp at some points, they don't need to be at 100% at all times as long as they are in no danger of dying.

[Deleted]

Most people who enjoy their BM don't come here to complain or post at all. You're all assuring eachother that you are right. The true sign of an immature stance is the expectation that EVERYTHING is for EVERYBODY and EVERYONE deserves a medal just for being there and trying, no matter their performance measured against others or own progress. Well - no. Some people suck, some people slack, some people have ego issues.
I appreciate however the few people I meet in WoW who start off as slackers and then really L2P their class. They shine. The whiners don't. Ever.

So you assume everyone here with concerns is a slacker, a whiner or has ego issues. In what category do you fall?

Funny that I do not see myself as a player without skill (so I must fall into the people with an ego grp). Mostly due to the fact I have throughout my wow carreer since Alpha been in some of the top raiding guilds in the world. WotLK being my most proud moment where we killed LK Heroic before the nerf and within the top 50 of the world. Yes, yes... you are right in one thing, I got an ego.

Back to the discussion. You can shout and stomp your feet as much as you want claiming the people on these boards are wrong, but that does not change the fact that some really well-founded concerns are being voiced. Some are indeed stemming from a lack of understanding how to get the max value from your class/spec. But some are not.
We would all benefit from a different attitude then the one you are displaying. Where concerns are not being waved away as: whiney/clueless/skillless. Come with math, come with propper arguements which are founded on said math to proof how people are wrong on points rather than saying: whiner.

[Deleted]

We would all benefit from a different attitude then the one you are displaying. Where concerns are not being waved away as: whiney/clueless/skillless. Come with math, come with propper arguements which are founded on said math to proof how people are wrong on points rather than saying: whiner.

No one in this thread has proven his claims, both sides are just opinions, thats why it will never lead to anything. I would be very annoyed if the would change Brewmasters in a significant way right now. I totally love my Brewmaster and apart from maybe getting Dizzying haze back or Statue Baseline, because it is already such a niche thing, that i dont get why it should waste a talent slot. I like that you have to work a bit harder ( not really that hard) to get where a Druid is by just standing around.

I totally think Tsharna is right on many points, there are many Players who don't complain and like their Brewmaster or another Class/Spec XY. I am laughing my ass of reading some of the Posts in this Thread and many other Threads in the Monk Forums, so much Drama about almost nothing.

[Deleted]

All the claims on this forum about how bad BMonks are, were NOT backed up by math and proper arguments in the first place. With "perception" and "feeling" - sure yeah. They are both an important part of gaming. But my perception and feeling can differ vastly. Now let's go down to your own "math" and "proper arguments".

"The fact that brew monks are PERCEIVED as bad/subpar." - key word "perception" - it's not a "fact" that BMonks ARE bad/subpar, nevermind how hard you try to make it sound logical. Not math nor proper argument. Also that perception is based on how many voices as opposed to how many silents? No clue, right?
"The fact that half of the allready few players who play brew are finding the spec not-fun." - this is NOT a fact. This is an assumption which lacks "math" completely. Show me numbers please and how you got them.
"The fact that monks are not played widely." - numbers please. I guess you COULD be right, but do you have them? How do they compare to other specs?
"But you haven't adressed why that still makes raidleaders accross the globe pick other tanks over brew tanks." - numbers please. Again you possibly COULD be right, but do you have them? There are raid tanks (7/7M) on this forum - BM players. Did you talk to them? Did you talk to their GMs?
"the main concences is that Monks are the worst tanks." - is that this "proper argument" you mentioned?

These are all your statements. Aside from these, I also found this one:
"I like totem for picking up the adds. PRoblem is that i still sometimes misjudge its range and accidently pull more than intended... " - so are you a l33t pwnz0r or still trying to get there?

You're talking all perception and expect others to change it for you and prove to you that your PERCEPTION is incorrect with arguments you don't value yourself (because you're not giving them in the first place - math for example or numbers)? That's the "mature stance"? Not in my world really.

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"We would all benefit from a different attitude then the one you are displaying." Yes man. Very much so. Start with yourself
I ENJOY MY BMONK and apart from VERY MINOR stuff (i.e. Dave - come back, Dave!) I don't think they lack anything.