Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Ebalina]

Congratulations.


871 illvl....


You are 25 ilvl too high for it.


You are wrong.


Not at all. We aren't supposed to need to. heroic and mythic are the progress raid modes.


Yes, they should. That's the audience for normals.

Will we clear it on normal? Yes. Will we clear it on heroic? Eventually.

Should normal be a progress raid requiring high ilvl and organisation etc? Not just no, but fuck no. Its supposed to be for a specific audience who do not do those things.

I have no idea why some people fail to understand this. Normal is supposed to be piss easy. That is what normal mode is for.

Listen and listen closely.
You are wrong on all accounts.

You think you are better then the raid, but you are one person.
Your group isn't up to the task.

The problem here is not the raid it is you.
You are the one who knows/feels he should be able to do it but your raid group is holding you back.

No raid should be able to be cleared by your grandma and 2 drunks unless they put in some effort, well maybe LFR.
Normal is progression orientated raid size as much is heroic and mythic just because you refuse to except it doesn't change the fact that it is.

I have no problem understanding that normal is supposed to be piss easy, seems like the people in the group you lead are the ones with the problem.
This by it self tough isn't an extension of overtuned content is is simply lack of effort/skill.

You do not need to clear heroic to do normal.
I'm 100% sure that there normal guilds out there progressing on ToV the way they should by not having overgeared characters blast trough the place.
And btw normal is missing few key mechanics as well so i still the problem is you not the content, or more so your raid group refusing to actually adapt put a tiny fraction of effort and just yelling "OVERTUNED" .

Know your raids groups place and don't jump 2 high if you don't want your legs cut off - thats a saying i just made up but feels goddamn accurate for people like you.

[ydraw]

If its too hard, just farm gear till it can be made easier.

If you cant farm gear to make it easier, you're simply not good enough.

No shit sherlock, which is why there are 3 tiers of raiding. There's even a tier just for the awesome raiders like you. Heroic is not that tier.

- - - Updated - - -

One possibility is that hard raids are a prelude to a F2P/P2W transition. Yes, raids are hard, but for $$$ you can buy Item of Overpowerness to massively overpower it!

The other possibility is that their testing process is just shit.

[Deleted]

No raid should be able to be cleared by your grandma and 2 drunks unless they put in some effort, well maybe LFR..

Normal raids should be - because that's the design goal. Its what blizzard wants them to be.

[Ebalina]

Normal raids should be - because that's the design goal. Its what blizzard wants them to be.

Normal is still progression orientated raid unless blizzard specificly come out and say.

You you and you + your gramdma and your 5 drunk friends are able to clear it without any effort, then this is not an argument you are just grasping at straws.
You think it should be but it isn't.

[thunderdragon2]

You can kill Helya in 870 gear (aka full heroic). But I dont get point of people like you. If you are in a truly heroic only guild, than ToV is your content for the next 2 months, in which case it should be awesome that Odyn & Helya dont fall over.

wrong odyn should fall over but gaurm and helya shouldnt.

[Deleted]

Normal is still progression orientated raid unless blizzard specificly come out and say.

They have.

You you and you + your gramdma and your 5 drunk friends are able to clear it without any effort, then this is not an argument you are just grasping at straws.
You think it should be but it isn't.

Its not an argument at all. Its me telling you what blizzards design goal for normal raids is.

http://manaflask.com/articles/a-raid...aid-difficulty

"While it’s impossible to fit every player into a neat, tidy archetype, we recognize that we could be providing a better experience to one broad category of raider: social groups comprised predominantly of friends and family, and smaller guilds that do their best to include as many members in their Raid outings possible.

To fill this void, we’re in the process of developing a new Flexible Raid system, which includes a new difficulty that sits between Raid Finder and Normal difficulty, while still allowing friends, family, or pick-up groups to play together."

[Taalyn]

When players who downed Mythic Cenarius say Heroic Helya was harder, that tells me the raid is overtuned.

[Tang0]

They have.


Its not an argument at all. Its me telling you what blizzards design goal for normal raids is.

http://manaflask.com/articles/a-raid...aid-difficulty

"While it’s impossible to fit every player into a neat, tidy archetype, we recognize that we could be providing a better experience to one broad category of raider: social groups comprised predominantly of friends and family, and smaller guilds that do their best to include as many members in their Raid outings possible.

To fill this void, we’re in the process of developing a new Flexible Raid system, which includes a new difficulty that sits between Raid Finder and Normal difficulty, while still allowing friends, family, or pick-up groups to play together."

If you refer to flex in that old article as the current normal, which many people think it is, there's still not a single word about it being designed about the need of shit players. Sorry. It's there to provide an opportunity to take a friend into a raid with you, not to be constrained by the fixed raid size. People like you, who want to clear raid with minimum effort have LFR.

ToV is a step up from the previous raid, and for many people it goes NormalEN-HeroicEN-NormalToV-HeroicToV. Is that a regress in rewards? At some points - yes. Are you below ilvl 870 if you successfully clear HeroicEN a few times in a guild raid where people care about each other and share loot? Unlikely.
Do you need more then 870 to clear ToV normal? No, we pugged it day one, having some bad players in our raid. With that, or lower ilvl. Take it as a progress curve and work on EN hc for a couple more weeks while progressing ToV.

No one owes you anything. If you feel the content is unrewarding in terms of gear - don't do it. Some people find rewards in challenging boss fights.

[Deleted]

If you refer to flex in that old article as the current normal, which many people think it is, there's still not a single word about it being designed about the need of shit players. Sorry. It's there to provide an opportunity to take a friend into a raid with you, not to be constrained by the fixed raid size. People like you, who want to clear raid with minimum effort have LFR. ]

Theres plenty more stuff out there which proves my point.

No one owes you anything. If you feel the content is unrewarding in terms of gear - don't do it. Some people find rewards in challenging boss fights.

I'm not asking for anything.

I'm labelling an overtuned raid as what it is - overtuned.

[Tang0]

Theres plenty more stuff out there which proves my point.


I'm not asking for anything.

I'm labelling an overtuned raid as what it is - overtuned.

Please, do quote. At least a single official word that normal is a raid difficulty intended for below average skilled people. Let alone drunks and grannys

[Lady Velvet]

Please, do quote. At least a single official word that normal is a raid difficulty intended for below average skilled people. Let alone drunks and grannys

Hey grannys are cool

[Deleted]

Please, do quote. At least a single official word that normal is a raid difficulty intended for below average skilled people. Let alone drunks and grannys

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/10175200

Who you choose to bring and what Item Level gear they’ll need to join your merry band is up to you, too

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/9628533157

Flexible mode is primarily for roughly the audience served by 10-player Normal raiding in Wrath of the Lich King (10 Normal used to be a tier lower than 25 Normal). Not every guild that raids is a raiding guild, if that makes sense. I'd say that Flexible mode is for social groups that raid;

--------

So there you have it. Normal raids should be naxx 10 level difficulty. i.e. they fall the fuck over if you sneeze at them.

[Accendor]

We progressed really well yesterday on Odyn HC and while our itemlevel did not rise by much and we were even hit by nerfs the day before (stealth hotfix for demon hunter rings, 3 of our DDs used it, so around -20-30k DPS for each of them) we got him to ~25% multiple times. Each time we died because somehow suddenly one or two of our tanks died, but I am pretty sure that we will defeat him next week with 1-2 new artifact traits each, just because of the additional stamina and perhaps 1-2 itemlevel more on everyone.
I really hope they do not fix him before we kill him with that difficulty, because the fights feel finally challenging again. I do hope however, that they raise the loot from it, because as it stands nearly no one from our raid wants to use loot from him if it is not titanforged.

So from my point of view the difficulty of heroic is totally fine, just the rewards need to be adjusted (again).

- - - Updated - - -

So there you have it. Normal raids should be naxx 10 level difficulty. i.e. they fall the fuck over if you sneeze at them.

But Nightmare for example was WAY below Naxx 10 difficulty.

[Deleted]

But Nightmare for example was WAY below Naxx 10 difficulty.

Sure.

I thought it was the perfect antidote to highmaul, but En being undertuned really doesn't excuse TOV being this much of a clusterfuck. its nowhere near naxx 10 level, its more like 2 horridons and a durumu. ;p

[friedmudkipz]

More like ToV is properly tuned after EN was mostly a joke.

[Deleted]

But Nightmare for example was WAY below Naxx 10 difficulty.

Nah... most people outgeared EN when it's doors opened - barely anyone did it with quest loot, while Naxx 10/25 was doable as soon as you dinged 80.

[D3athsting]

Trial of valor is tuned for ppl who have 35th artifact trait

[EzG]

Trial of valor is tuned for ppl who have 35th artifact trait

I'm not even close. I'll never finish this raid then.

[Tang0]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/10175200

Who you choose to bring and what Item Level gear they’ll need to join your merry band is up to you, too

It is your choice to bring ilvl 800 people for ToV, yet you will suffer for it. Nowhere does it say you will be able to kill anything if you do.

You take those statements to extremes. It's " surely can bring a <unpopular spec> 5-10 item levels lower then anyone else and still kill bosses or progress succesfully"

Not "lol, you can bring your freshly boosted friend and a monkey, you'll still be fine dawg"

Flexible mode is primarily for roughly the audience served by 10-player Normal raiding in Wrath of the Lich King (10 Normal used to be a tier lower than 25 Normal). Not every guild that raids is a raiding guild, if that makes sense. I'd say that Flexible mode is for social groups that raid;

So there you have it. Normal raids should be naxx 10 level difficulty. i.e. they fall the fuck over if you sneeze at them.

I missed the naxx part. What if they were talking about ICC?

Stop making things up. If you can't progress - work on it
Show us a log of your wipes and people here will gladly help you on your way to the kill.

We wiped super hard on OdynHC on the 1st cooldown. (I raidlead pugs). Didn't make it into p3. I brought extra heal, making it 2/5/14, made rainbow bridge for shields to help blind people and the 91% nerf kicked in. Boom - dead in a few pulls.

There's no shame in not being able to kill things. I'm banging my head on HC Helya with all sorts of pug raid 2nd week in a row. Blaming the game entirely for this is pathetic though.

[Deleted]

It is your choice to bring ilvl 800 people for ToV, yet you will suffer for it. Nowhere does it say you will be able to kill anything if you do.

Not if its blizzard design goal that you should be able to kill things, no. Which it is.

There's no shame in not being able to kill things. I'm banging my head on HC Helya with all sorts of pug raid 2nd week in a row. Blaming the game entirely for this is pathetic though.

If I gave a shit what you thought of my progress i wouldn't have told you it would I? This isn't about me, its about the raid.

TOV is overtuned for its intended audience - there is no way that low to mid skill players in 850 gear are killing anything in there. Theres no way mid skill players in 860 gear are clearing heroic, either.

Its overtuned.