Something needs to be done about M+ and its negative impact on the game

[szandos]

**Edited - see bottom**
As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players.

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

I think it's perfectly fair that someone who spends 6-7 hours a day gets/has better gear than someone who plays 0.5-1 hour a day. This expansion is the first time in forever that there's a reason to spend more time in-game. Play with people that spend the same amount of time in the game as you do if you don't want to feel left behind.

[kamuimac]

I play a hell of a lot more than an hour a day and I agree with the OP in spirit at least. Either M+ needs a lockout or they need to lift all restrictions on mythic raiding. They kill 10man to promote larger group content then they make 5man the best gear path...that makes fricking sense.

seems like its the problem with the person between chair and monitor if you cant limit yourself time to look for proffesional help its called addiction.

[Mizix]

Play with people that spend the same amount of time in the game as you do if you don't want to feel left behind.

This so much. If you had 6-8 hours per day to play 10 years ago but now only have 1-2 hours, you should stop trying to keep up with people that can still put in all those hours. You will always be behind. It is not fair to limit their activities so that you can feel *less* left behind. You would still not be on pair or anywhere near close them simply because there is too much of a difference in play time. So what do you care if they are x3 times better geared than you instead of only x2 times? They will still be ahead of you and until you can start put in the same amount of time, you will have no way of catching up.

Realize that you don't play in the same "bracket" anymore. You are a casual, find a casual guild at the skill level you are comfortable with and let go of your idea of "staying ahead or on pair with the curve" when it comes to gear.

[Hctaz]

**Edited - see bottom**

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

EDIT:

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

They need to kill off split farm runs while they can as well. M+ and split farm raids are the two things that are causing hardcore WoW raiders to want to quit the game. They've just made the game have a non existent limit on what you can do and obviously players pushing for hardcore progression are going to do whatever they can to get an edge. The difference between being the best guild and the second best guild is tremendously huge.

[denzildk]

not gonna read whole thread so sorry if you've answered some of the questions before.

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

As you play so little, why do you need to do anything, or achive anything (not in general, but specific things)? i assume that you dont raid, so you dont HAVE to gear up, you dont HAVE to farm AP so you dont HAVE to do M+ for it. why do you want to stay ahead of the curve? you dont realy need alot of gear to do M+ and if you can do 1-2 per week you can easely get some good gear from the weekly chest, as that gives much better ilvl than the chests in the dungions.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

yes there should have been a cap from the start, but there isnt going to be and blizz have been clear about that, rewards scale down as you get better loot from the weekly chest, scaling from the highest level you completet. so You could just do a +12 dungion each week and get some of the best gear available to players, taking maby an hour or so with a compitent group, and your not even restricted by the M+ time limit.
And yes some players run MoS M+ all day to get AP, but they spend time doing it, so they should be rewarded. And yes they do get an advantage, but why does that matter to you? do you need all the AP for something? raids? RBG's? M+? cuz last i checked i could easely do all 3 with just a bit of gear (varied to the level of the specific group ofc.)

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

yes legion is a time sink. It's an mmo, there needs to be longjevety (how is that word even spelled?!?) for it to not be like in MoP/WoD where players logged in the for first month of new content and then just stopped playing cuz they'd seen it all. we need something to work towards, in this case it's oranges and AK/AP. Again, you'r not wrong, but it's not realy a problem.

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

If a guy want's to put 5 hours into running MoS M+ i dont see why he shouldent be allowed to, and saying that you want the same rewards as him by playing for 30min per day is just selfish and ignorant. (not sure if that was what you ment, but it sounded like it)

[Saberstrike]

Artificial gating is bad for the game. People who play more / play better should be rewarded more. It's that simple. We had an expansion where that wasn't the case. That expansion was WoD. Never again please.

[Deleted]

wtf you are talking about? there is already caps for everything - arena gear per week, raid lockouts, one weekly chest, everything except Mythic+. Please, get at least minimum knowledge about the game before you post.

Not limiting enough for me. Because I can't find the time to do PvP too.

Stop being a prick and let people play how long they want, really. Your loot-envy is showing.
You really don't get the system behind M+.
It's also extremely casual friendly and lockouts or a softcap would just destroy that (Casuals get boosted and get gear). But how would you know - right.

You aren't even remotely capable of thinking about something or someone else if it doesn't benefit you. Get out.....with your filthy, nasty and egoistical demands. Your fear of being left behind because someone is better/plays more than you - it's just pathetic.

[haxedagain]

If a guy want's to put 5 hours into running MoS M+ i dont see why he shouldent be allowed to, and saying that you want the same rewards as him by playing for 30min per day is just selfish and ignorant. (not sure if that was what you ment, but it sounded like it)

This here answers this entire thread. Get over yourself OP, if you don't want to play that many hours and someone else does, they should have a better reward.

[Deleted]

What you are asking for is pretty much a mechanism to save you from yourself. If you feel that you have to do and don't want to fall behind, you are addicted to the game and should seek help and not demand artificial gating so that you no longer force yourself to play.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Citation needed. I long for the day when people on this forum stop equating their personal experience and that of their immediate circle of friends with being representative of the entire player base. I'll concede, as I did in my first post (if you bothered to read it, which I highly suspect despite its relative brevity) that the AP grind is an issue for raiders because it's very unfriendly towards alts and third/fourth specs (and a quick look through my post history will confirm that, yes, I do see it as a problem writ large, albeit one that doesn't effect me because I gather up more than enough for what I do with dungeons and world quests). Beyond that, however, it really isn't Blizzard's job to save players from themselves. Trying to do that is what led to Warlords of Draenor, where the reward structure and pacing was so irrevocably broken that it pretty much eviscerated their playerbase and participation rates so badly that they spent the rest of the expansion patching in slapdash fixes like Pathfinder and current-season Arena gear from Ashran, then just gave up and banked on Legion (which, luckily, turned that ship around).

Now, I know it's trendy on this forum to get angry at people who speak only for themselves rather than deigning to designate themself the voice of the masses, but I think you'll find you have a much stronger arguing point in almost any situation if you relay personal experiences and draw a conclusion that relates to yourself, rather than trying to take a very small, skewed sample and pin it on the entire playerbase to make your position seem stronger.

Cituation:
Using my brain and looking at how the game functions and it's current design.

It's only good if you're a turbo casual or a super min/max tryhard. Otherwise you won't have anything to do and will get bored fast. It's super obvious.
They made the same mistakes square enix made in FF14. The EXACT same ones.

[force18]

The thing I wanted to add is to the people in other threads saying oh blizzard has stats on anything they want in the game. You don't think they know many people are running mythics or how many people killed a boar with sunglasses on at night so they can blah blah.
If Blizzard has all this stats available, why did they just come out and say they didn't think people would ever hit the 4 soft cap legendaries and so soon?

If you play more then I do you deserve more things, common sense, all I can see if maybe this expac kills off some of the hardcore guilds who thought they were hardcore because they can't spend enough time gaining ap quick. I will have almost the same ap stats are a hardcore person near the end of the expansion and only played 1/4 the time. Like some hardcore raiders have said this expansion they envy some of us casuals who only login play a few hours do a few emissary chests, do some runs, normals and log off. (lots have been burning out very easily)

[gonzajd777]

**Edited - see bottom**

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

EDIT:

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

stupid complain... nobody force you to do any content, im 875+ and just raiding, 1 legendary...

NONE CONTENT IS MANDATORY, ITS A GAME .

[Rogalicus]

Artificial gating is bad for the game. People who play more / play better should be rewarded more. It's that simple. We had an expansion where that wasn't the case. That expansion was WoD. Never again please.

That expansion was every expansion, for fuck's sake. Heroics always had lockouts, raids always had lockouts, valor and conquest had weekly cap. Mythic+ is the dangerous outlier. Stop turning the game into some fucking Lineage.

[Bullerick]

Is there a way to /ignore a thread?

[Tinary]

We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.


Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

Where shall I begin. You are not forced to stay near or ahead of the curve. You can play as much as you like or as less as you like and still do fine. At higher AP levels, 10 mythics per day or 1 mythic per day means nothing. They are slighly ahead of you and thats that. If you play only 0.5-1h per day, you are not mythic raider so what is the problem?

Again, it is not a problem, the advandage they get is so low in regards of AP and gear that it should not matter. You have all your good traits already, he has also, he gets 1% increase on a skill he uses on trash 3 days before you. god damn, end of the world. No need for a cap.

Dont really see that time sink? If you have alts, its a time sink, otherwise its fine.

What I have against capping? Let me see, I work in a shift so I have to skip a week or 2? When I finally has time to play, I can only run limited amount? What if I want to help a friend cause I am only tank in guild or only tank online? Ops, cant, 14 are done. Noone forces you to grind m+ unless you are mythic raider and even they dont give a fuck bout it anymore cause there is a cap on the gear you can get from there, cap which is raised when new raid comes out. Its fun content, content everyone can enjoy (or hate in your case). All I am seeing from your post is that you want to gate everyones progression and fun just cause you cant do it. I am working alot, 12 hours shifts and I have time to log and play normally maybe once per week if I am lucky, yet I dont see a problem with it?(I do raid 2-4h per wow week, or try do) In terms of gear, I am not that behind, in terms of AP, I am not that far behind. My dps/hps/mitigation w/e your role is, is fine for the content I do. Its only a problem if you are a high end player but you are not. Dont be silly man, you dont have time to play and you think of yourself as mythic raider? (Just for lol's, imagine this was vanilla. You are in a raiding guild (Only place where gear matters), everyone are already max level but you still level cause you only play 0,5h-1h per day. Finally you get up, dungeons and stuff and then raids. Molten core. You are one of the 3 mages in group. Double mage wrist drops. Who gets it? Not you, you dont have time to play, no right for the loot.)

In the end, moral of the story and the text I wrote at work. If you do not play the game, dont expect the same gear/ap/power/etc.

[Regalbeast]

I think the only thing that needs fixing are the people who leave mid run. Had THREE tanks bail today on three of my keys. Lost all three.

I'm an asshole, but I think people who leave shouldn't be able to run for the rest of the week.

Oh definitely, there needs to be some sort of punishment for leaving multiple. I think it might be harsh for leaving just one (since connection/RL issues) but definitely leaving multiple.

[Mirishka]

**Edited - see bottom**

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

EDIT:

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

So YOU don't have the time to play and its a game issue? And more importantly why should people like me - who have a lot of time to play - be limited by people like you?

[Thage]

Cituation:
Using my brain and looking at how the game functions and it's current design.

It's only good if you're a turbo casual or a super min/max tryhard. Otherwise you won't have anything to do and will get bored fast. It's super obvious.
They made the same mistakes square enix made in FF14. The EXACT same ones.

So in other words, you have nothing to back it up and instead want to apply your personal experience to the entire playerbase. Cognitive bias is a bitch, I get it. And from the looks of it, the issue in this thread is people complaining about having too much to do in their limited playtime, which... I mean. Kinda shoots your argument in the foot.

Funny you bring up FFXIV, though, considering it's the only other MMO in the North American market that brings in enough to justify a subscription fee and has a very strong three-month-cycle patch cadence that always includes new dunegons, solo content, and raid content. So swing and a miss on that one, too.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Too much to do that they don't want to do because it's repetitive and not fun. The normal person can't mindlessly grind the same dungeons forever and ever until their fingers fall off.

FF14 is probably the worst MMO I've ever played besides WOD. Either you're a turbo casual or a alex savage tryhard, anything inbetween gets no content and nothing to do(a super common complaint on every forum this entire expac, by the way!).

[Dandine]

If someone wants to spend their time running Mythic+ dungeons over and over, more power to them! I would do the same if I had the ability to sit for hours doing the same thing, but I don't, some days I can do 6, other days play something else and do none.

To limit something in a game because you don't personally have the time to do something is not the fault of the game or other players, if someone can spend more time in the game and play the content, they deserve to be rewarded for that.