Sooo.. Balance Druid in 7.1.5?

[Kornum]

I have no idea who he is, fact is, that Nagura was in for all kills on top of many others Balance through out the top 50. She also did very competitive damage on top of bringing BR and innervate, something which other specs can only dream of while doing complete shit damage.

Ok, I'm gonna take the bait again and use your argumentation to show you, why its flawed. Here we go: Maybe the "other specs"(who can only dream of utility while doing complete shit damage) should just get better.

See what I did there? And why its not constructive?

[MV Kaa]

dont expect great buffs without nerfs to ife and ed, because balance is fine with one of the two and way above average with both of them

I dont think you know what "Way above average" means.Way above average to boomkins? Yes. Way above average to other classes? No

[Deleted]

Ok, I'm gonna take the bait again and use your argumentation to show you, why its flawed. Here we go: Maybe the "other specs"(who can only dream of utility while doing complete shit damage) should just get better.

See what I did there? And why its not constructive?

No, because you are taking personal performance over logs we see in WCL. Of course Balance is not a fire mage (will be nerfed), but you are better off than an Elemental Shaman in raids and in mythic plus. Time to look beyond your personal skill level and cry for buffs, while apparently, other people who play the same class are fully capable of playing in world top guilds and get world first kills.

[Xarathan]

but you are better off than an Elemental Shaman in raids and in mythic plus

dude wtf u on about ele shamans are pretty damn good in mythic + and balance is bottom tier

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...unt&metric=dps

[MV Kaa]

Yea lol ele shamans are gonna get hotfix the first week the patch is out. They are already good and these buffs are gonna be overkill

[Deleted]

considering most of the top end is getting nerfed and very little buffs are happening then balance druids not getting touched is a very very good thing.

[lunarstra]

I have no idea who he is, fact is, that Nagura was in for all kills on top of many others Balance through out the top 50. She also did very competitive damage on top of bringing BR and innervate, something which other specs can only dream of while doing complete shit damage.

Okay, first ever post on mmo in 9 years of WoW.

First off, I can understand your thinking here (as misguided as it may be). You have to come to terms with that just one player does not represent the state of a class. Nagura, Cyous, Gebuz are all extremely talented players and would most likely be able to hold a raid spot no matter the state of our class. This, however, does not instantly translate into us being in a good place.

There are quite a few metrics we can look at for this, the one that tells a decent story is warcraft logs percentile rankings. Now you can either look at fight-by-fight or overall for the Instance. Either way the story is the same;
75th Percentile - 15th out of all classes & specs.
90th Percentile - 16th
99th Percentile - 10th

It's safe to assume that the range of players between 75th-90th are your "decent" player base. It can consist of a few different variables though;
Good players with Mediocre gear (Bad legendaries included)
Mediocre players with Good gear.

The simple fact is, that the current boss design ethos has been heading towards "fun" mechanics, a lot of movement, cleave & multi dotting. All of which we dont do well at all.

Going to end it here, but to give my own personal opinion. We can do these things, but there's always something better. There's not a single fight where i've felt like I have an advantage. And as a boomkin main for a very long time now It's saddening to not bring anything to any encounter besides a BR.

[Deleted]

Okay, first ever post on mmo in 9 years of WoW.

First off, I can understand your thinking here (as misguided as it may be). You have to come to terms with that just one player does not represent the state of a class. Nagura, Cyous, Gebuz are all extremely talented players and would most likely be able to hold a raid spot no matter the state of our class. This, however, does not instantly translate into us being in a good place.

There are quite a few metrics we can look at for this, the one that tells a decent story is warcraft logs percentile rankings. Now you can either look at fight-by-fight or overall for the Instance. Either way the story is the same;
75th Percentile - 15th out of all classes & specs.
90th Percentile - 16th
99th Percentile - 10th

It's safe to assume that the range of players between 75th-90th are your "decent" player base. It can consist of a few different variables though;
Good players with Mediocre gear (Bad legendaries included)
Mediocre players with Good gear.

The simple fact is, that the current boss design ethos has been heading towards "fun" mechanics, a lot of movement, cleave & multi dotting. All of which we dont do well at all.

Going to end it here, but to give my own personal opinion. We can do these things, but there's always something better. There's not a single fight where i've felt like I have an advantage. And as a boomkin main for a very long time now It's saddening to not bring anything to any encounter besides a BR.

Hence my very first post "get better". Getting better is achieved by improving yourselves - it can be your skill, but also gear. Got bad trinkets, legendaries? Guess what - start farming mythic+. Core mechanics are fine. You've dots (able to multi dot, or pre-dot while moving), good CDs (mixture of 1-3 CDs fitting all encounters needs), a blink/disengage, different affinities (especially being able to tank with bear affinity), a BR and.... Innervate. Even if you dont like it, Innervate is probably the most broken ability in this game. If you dont see this as valuable utility I dont know what is.

You certainly wont recieve buffs by crying on the forums, because Balance isnt as bad as you wish them to be.

[lappee]

There are quite a few metrics we can look at for this, the one that tells a decent story is warcraft logs percentile rankings. Now you can either look at fight-by-fight or overall for the Instance. Either way the story is the same

FYI WCL and other logging sites are one of the worst ways to determine how "bad" a spec is. It works decently at telling you what specs are doing awesome job but doesnt work at all the other way around.

[huth]

FYI WCL and other logging sites are one of the worst ways to determine how "bad" a spec is. It works decently at telling you what specs are doing awesome job but doesnt work at all the other way around.

Mostly because specs that are perceived as "bad" are generally underrepresented among performance players, so you will get below average player skill on them.

Still, telling people to "get better" doesn't help anybody and is functionally identical to telling people they suck.

[Deleted]

Hence my very first post "get better". Getting better is achieved by improving yourselves - it can be your skill, but also gear. Got bad trinkets, legendaries? Guess what - start farming mythic+. Core mechanics are fine. You've dots (able to multi dot, or pre-dot while moving), good CDs (mixture of 1-3 CDs fitting all encounters needs), a blink/disengage, different affinities (especially being able to tank with bear affinity), a BR and.... Innervate. Even if you dont like it, Innervate is probably the most broken ability in this game. If you dont see this as valuable utility I dont know what is.

You certainly wont recieve buffs by crying on the forums, because Balance isnt as bad as you wish them to be.

Innervate only helps that much.

Tank pulls half a room of trash (which is pretty much the standard in M+).

Every meele and half of the casters are at multiple millions of dps instantly and consistently.

As a moonkin you throw in a sunfire (no moonfires, because you cant dot 10-20 mobs before they die). Then you start hard casting 2 second lunar strikes (which is basically impossible with certain affixes). After 8-10 seconds of doing this and nothing else, you place a star fall and start doing the same again.

Moonkin AOE dps is pretty much the worst out of all casters. It's ridiculous. And since M+ are basically 20% bosses and 80% trash, moonkins are pretty much a bad choice if you can bring a fire mage, enhancer, monk, rogue, hunter, dh, or fuck anything else really.

The only things a moonkin really has to offer are:

-Solar beam (which is VERY situational. In most situations, it is a 1min cd interrupt.)

-Innervate as you said. Again, this REQUIRES a decent healer to work in any way. Impossible to use in PUGs

-Battle rez. This is the only useful if your group fucked up. If you plan to fuck up, this is a good choice. No one plans to fuck up.

Our extreme mobility using blink, cat, travel form and sprint are pretty useless in dungeons as well, because you can either just mount up or you have to wait for the tank anyway.

You can turn it how you want. DPS matters. Always has. Always will. And it is by far the most important metric for M+.

M+ is only 10+ mob pulls or single target.

single target we are mediocre and mass aoe cleave we are pretty much bottom 5.

Overall, if a group leader has the choice between a moonkin, fire mage, hunter, rogue or enh. Who the fuck invites the moonkin?

Sorry, rant over. Would so love to see a moonkin pull upwards of 5m dps once.

[lappee]

Mostly because specs that are perceived as "bad" are generally underrepresented among performance players, so you will get below average player skill on them.

Still, telling people to "get better" doesn't help anybody and is functionally identical to telling people they suck.

Indeed, that is exactly the reason any WCL argument can be overlooked instantly

Telling people to "get better" is a valid point when theres clear evidence that a spec is performing well enough at the highest level of raiding.

[Taalyn]

Hence my very first post "get better". Getting better is achieved by improving yourselves - it can be your skill, but also gear. Got bad trinkets, legendaries? Guess what - start farming mythic+. Core mechanics are fine. You've dots (able to multi dot, or pre-dot while moving), good CDs (mixture of 1-3 CDs fitting all encounters needs), a blink/disengage, different affinities (especially being able to tank with bear affinity), a BR and.... Innervate. Even if you dont like it, Innervate is probably the most broken ability in this game. If you dont see this as valuable utility I dont know what is.

You certainly wont recieve buffs by crying on the forums, because Balance isnt as bad as you wish them to be.

First when you told Gebuz to get better I thought you were a troll. Then you said Balance is good in M+ so I thought you were a dedicated troll. Then you said Elemental is bad in M+ and now you're telling people to get good based on logs. You're either a very dedicated troll or very misguided. If you base a specs performance on logs you really shouldnt. I'm usually in the 75th percentile and I know there's huge room for improvement which I actively work on. On Xavius though I'm in the 90th percentile. Why? Because he's on farm so I pad the meters with Starfall on tentacles. And that right there is why you don't base a specs performance on logs. They are very misleading.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Guardian Affinity is not taken so you can emergency tank. It's taken for Thick Hide which is being nerfed. I can tank better in Moonkin Form than I can in Bear Form.

[MV Kaa]

Innervate only helps that much.

Tank pulls half a room of trash (which is pretty much the standard in M+).

Every meele and half of the casters are at multiple millions of dps instantly and consistently.

As a moonkin you throw in a sunfire (no moonfires, because you cant dot 10-20 mobs before they die). Then you start hard casting 2 second lunar strikes (which is basically impossible with certain affixes). After 8-10 seconds of doing this and nothing else, you place a star fall and start doing the same again.

Moonkin AOE dps is pretty much the worst out of all casters. It's ridiculous. And since M+ are basically 20% bosses and 80% trash, moonkins are pretty much a bad choice if you can bring a fire mage, enhancer, monk, rogue, hunter, dh, or fuck anything else really.

The only things a moonkin really has to offer are:

-Solar beam (which is VERY situational. In most situations, it is a 1min cd interrupt.)

-Innervate as you said. Again, this REQUIRES a decent healer to work in any way. Impossible to use in PUGs

-Battle rez. This is the only useful if your group fucked up. If you plan to fuck up, this is a good choice. No one plans to fuck up.

Our extreme mobility using blink, cat, travel form and sprint are pretty useless in dungeons as well, because you can either just mount up or you have to wait for the tank anyway.

You can turn it how you want. DPS matters. Always has. Always will. And it is by far the most important metric for M+.

M+ is only 10+ mob pulls or single target.

single target we are mediocre and mass aoe cleave we are pretty much bottom 5.

Overall, if a group leader has the choice between a moonkin, fire mage, hunter, rogue or enh. Who the fuck invites the moonkin?

Sorry, rant over. Would so love to see a moonkin pull upwards of 5m dps once.

Wow youre really good at making good things sound bad.

If your LS takes 2 seconds to cast you have no haste.
If it takes you 10 seconds to be able to cast starfall, you are horrible at this game.
If your solor beam has a 1 min cd, then you suck at interupting.
No one plans to fuck up, but people always fuck up. Especially in 12+ where things one shot you without even a thought.
Who the fuck cares about mobility outside of combat? Are you serious?
We are no where close to being bottom 5 in aoe. No one out dps me in 10+ when it comes to aoe pulls. The only time I lose is if they pop cds and I dont.

[lunarstra]

Indeed, that is exactly the reason any WCL argument can be overlooked instantly

Telling people to "get better" is a valid point when theres clear evidence that a spec is performing well enough at the highest level of raiding.

Okay, so i understand your comment about WCL. But can I ask how you feel about our class currently? would just like to hear your opinion.

[Slippykins]

I think WarcraftLogs is fairly innocuous for single-target fights like Nythendra and gives an accurate ranking of the specs w.r.t. their single-target DPS. When you look at rankings over DPS-complex fights like Dragons, Xavius and Il'gynoth, it becomes less about player skill and more about scumbagging DPS and raid strategy. When you aggregate over the fights as well you get similar nonsense rankings. You'll find cleave DPS are systematically higher on the aggregated rankings than on Nythendra, because (burst) cleave DPS is magnitudes stronger than single-target. Thus rankings are skewed, and since cleave DPS isn't as important as single-target, aggregated rankings are misleading at best.

[lappee]

Okay, so i understand your comment about WCL. But can I ask how you feel about our class currently? would just like to hear your opinion.

ST - influenced too much by whether you have the right legendaries or not
AoE - High end damage isnt high enough to justify the low end damage we start with.
Mechanics - Core mechanics are great, talents are influenced too much by other talents eg. you have situations of "take X talents and you'll have to have Z and Y too to make X work". Horrible wording but its early in the morning, sorry for that

[Polarthief]

Got bad trinkets, legendaries? Guess what - start farming mythic+. Core mechanics are fine.

TOP, FUCKING, KEK, when you say "core mechanics are fine, go get legendaries".

Like, are you serious right now? No one will take you seriously when you say a spec is fine if you have good legendaries, especially after bullying Gebuz of all people.

Notice how Boomkin is actually a fairly mediocre spec for both ST and burst AoE, unless you have both IFE and ED, and then you're actually pretty decent at ST. Specs should not be balanced around assuming you have 2 BiS legendaries. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot and should never be involved in the development of balancing classes together.

Boomkin's biggest issues right now is lackluster ST w/o legendaries, and its ridiculous ramp-up for AoE. A few easy solutions are as follows:
- Buff Starsurge to 30 AsP, nerf ED to give 5 per stack, so the gap between ED and not having it is severely reduced.
- Potentially buff Incarn/CA to 2m and nerf IFE? Not 100% needed though if ^ happens/
- Starfall should be baseline 50 AsP, and Echoing Stars, because it's the worst gold trait in the entire game, should make Starfall apply Moonfire to targets. Ramp-up obliterated and the worst gold trait in the game is made 1000x better. Still worthless for ST though.

Oh look, NOW the mechanics of Boomkin are solid and the OP legendaries are still nice and "OP", but not AS OP. Instead, a bit of their mechanic was baked into baseline to reduce the gap between players with and without legendaries. Does anything else really need fixing? I can't think of anything else besides fixing the non-legendary baseline ST and the ramp-up AoE issues we suffer.

I'll just finish with this: If a guildie of mine can never beat me on DPS suddenly beats me by 40k every single fight only because he got IFE and I got garbage legendaries, something is really fucked up there and is by no means "fine".

[Deleted]

Wow youre really good at making good things sound bad.

If your LS takes 2 seconds to cast you have no haste.
If it takes you 10 seconds to be able to cast starfall, you are horrible at this game.
If your solor beam has a 1 min cd, then you suck at interupting.
No one plans to fuck up, but people always fuck up. Especially in 12+ where things one shot you without even a thought.
Who the fuck cares about mobility outside of combat? Are you serious?
We are no where close to being bottom 5 in aoe. No one out dps me in 10+ when it comes to aoe pulls. The only time I lose is if they pop cds and I dont.

I would like to agree here as well. Balance druids does well in mythic+

the only issue i have seen moonkins have are in lower mythic+ where it really doesn't matter. on 1st pack, we can't aoe. we are busy stacking up astral power, which is the time the pack dies, but in this scenario, the 2nd pack is just your breakfast as you already have everything in your arsenal.


on higher lvls, everyone atleast has 1 legendary or 2, if you have less. than it is not your highly active main so it wouldn't matter to begin with anyway. but defnitely you might have one of the dps legendaries as in , sephuz, fel ring, wrist, or helmet. if you still don't then your unlucky and hopefully yourd 3rd will be one of those 4. and these helps a lot on mythic+ as well.

I actively easily complete a +12 each week. (while a sample of 1 doesnt' say much) i'm still hardly the 3rd lowest dps in the group, boss fights can easily do 700-800k burst and finish with 500k+ dps.

which is decent no matter how you look at it.

So yeah on high mythic+ boomies are fine.

[Deleted]

I would like to agree here as well. Balance druids does well in mythic+

the only issue i have seen moonkins have are in lower mythic+ where it really doesn't matter. on 1st pack, we can't aoe. we are busy stacking up astral power, which is the time the pack dies, but in this scenario, the 2nd pack is just your breakfast as you already have everything in your arsenal.


on higher lvls, everyone atleast has 1 legendary or 2, if you have less. than it is not your highly active main so it wouldn't matter to begin with anyway. but defnitely you might have one of the dps legendaries as in , sephuz, fel ring, wrist, or helmet. if you still don't then your unlucky and hopefully yourd 3rd will be one of those 4. and these helps a lot on mythic+ as well.

I actively easily complete a +12 each week. (while a sample of 1 doesnt' say much) i'm still hardly the 3rd lowest dps in the group, boss fights can easily do 700-800k burst and finish with 500k+ dps.

which is decent no matter how you look at it.

So yeah on high mythic+ boomies are fine.

There are People with 0 Legendary that play since Legion launch. But yeah i guess that they arent investing much time huh?