What has become of conservatism?

[NineSpine]

I struggle to conceptualize any difference that leaves philosophy out. I'm framing justice as a social construct; what exactly is not philosophical about that?.

In any case case you're simply replacing the idea conservatism has of itself for the idea you've crafted in your mind.
It's not opposed to change. At all. Heck, they change stuff around all the time with legislation, rhetoric, and/or philosophy. Conservatism doesn't need to preserve existing injustice or every aspect of current society: they pick and choose what they deem worthy, or prosperous.
You are simply disagreeing on what is just. This doesn't translate in them preserving injustice: it's simply different than your construction, philosophical or otherwise.

You could have just said "I'm a nihilist" and I would have known to ignore you in the first place.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I feel very sorry for you if opinions that differ from your own are this difficult for you to process, and you need a safe space from the big bad journalists that may say something unpleasant to your ears.

Yikes. I'm almost a far-left supporter, mate. I just prefer to call myself a moderate left. Try again?

Or does fighting for objectivity makes me a far-right supporter now?

[NineSpine]

Yikes. I'm almost a far-left supporter, mate. Try again?

Or does fighting for objectivity makes me a far-right supporter now?

Objectivity in opinion pieces? Really?

[nextormento]

You could have just said "I'm a nihilist" and I would have known to ignore you in the first place.

It's cute that you need to frame me as something I'm not, right after the post I'm accusing you of doing just that.
You could try and make an argument, rather than bundle ideologies to hate them more efficiently.

[Bullettime]

The point Nick should be asking is why did the right (not conservatism) change.

It changed in the UK because the left stopped appealing to the white working class.

Do people really think that getting some rich female celebrity on stage to complain about the wage gap is going to turn people to their cause when said celeb makes more money in an hour that most do in a year?

Or getting some rich black singer/actor/director demanding for more representation(i.e work) when most people are struggling?

No they want to see policies which affect them. Everybody in the the working class is in the same shit, no one cares about the fact that there isn't equal representation among billionaire CEO's. And the working class still care about meritocracy. You work hard to get forward in life. Not you are born with Vagina,different skin tone, different sexual preferences gets you top and front on all policies. Which is a problem when you get your information on what the plebs want from academia which lives in its own little bubble. Which is why labour are so out of touch. Lib dems too with their leader making a fuss over the colour of aprons worn on a TV show reinforcing gender stereotypes....

The conservatives whilst authoritarian are seen as getting shit done for the different classes.


And the left seems to view national identity as something to get rid of. Its what happens when you appeal to black-British,Pakistani-British,Polish-British and so on. Because their loyalty to Britain is already split with their loyalty to their home countries.


The left is out of touch with the working class. The left cares more about being seen in a good light by minorities/feminists and academia than being seen by those working 40+ hours a week just to get by.

The main concern with that though is that even the right voters are putting so much emphasis on the ones delivering the message and not the actual message or the policies proposed.

I absolutely agree with the middle section as it's also true of the US. But at the same time, the party being advocated by those celebrities and such are also the ones that are pushing for legislation that more heavily benefits the middle and bottom working class workers. It's ultimately an issue of left parties having better intentions but shitting the bed in delivering the message because they're trying to court EVERYONE.

Both sides play identity politics. One just does it knowingly.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Objectivity in opinion pieces? Really?

There's a difference between an opinion and propaganda, which many seems to hardly see the difference.

But I shouldn't be surprised anymore, seeing how many from your group - not saying you did (I hope you didn't) - were sad that Castro died, one of the worst human right violator of our modern society.

[downnola]

OP, no. Just no.

I've seen you enough on this forum to know what your opinions are. I also know that you're very aggressive with your opinions. Posting articles from The Guardian, who is known to push a given agenda, doesn't do you good. You only enforce stereotypes upon you.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you of all people chose to attack the source of the article without reading it. That you have the nerve to attack someone's motives after valiantly defending WikiLeaks is quite a feat.

Do opposing views trigger you that much? So much for your supposed ability to think critically, yeah?

[RickJamesLich]

Nobody is opposed to preventing people form entering illegally. If you can't argue without strawmen, expect my prompt ignoring of your future posts.

Well your claim that "families will be ripped apart" has little merit then. If people come in illegally, what do they expect will one day happen?

[NineSpine]

It's cute that you need to frame me as something I'm not, right after the post I'm accusing you of doing just that.
You could try and make an argument, rather than bundle ideologies to hate them more efficiently.

Your argument is that justice isn't a thing because blah blah blah subjectivity vs objectivity blah blah blah it's all the same because some people have a different idea of justice. If slavery and not-slavery are all the same because some people think slavery is just, that is basically pointless nihilism and not the type of thing I'm interested in wasting my time on.

- - - Updated - - -

Well your claim that "families will be ripped apart" has little merit then. If people come in illegally, what do they expect will one day happen?

Just because you determined someone deserves to have their family ripped apart doesn't mean that it doesn't count as being ripped apart. The inevitable assault on LGBT rights, which states have been trying to push throughout the entire Obama administration and now will be unleashed to do, will also rip apart families.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a difference between an opinion and propaganda, which many seems to hardly see the difference.

But I shouldn't be surprised anymore, seeing how many from your group - not saying you did (I hope you didn't) - were sad that Castro died, one of the worst human right violator of our modern society.

Propaganda is any work that attempts to change minds. It only has negative connotations because it is considered improper when the government engages in it with it's own populace in order to secure more government power. An opinion piece is always propaganda by definition.

I'm not sad Castro died. I am sad the U.S. played such a prominent role in causing his rise to power.

[NED funded]

Yikes. I'm almost a far-left supporter, mate. I just prefer to call myself a moderate left. Try again?

Or does fighting for objectivity makes me a far-right supporter now?

It's an opinion piece. Even if you disagree with the Guardian I'd expect someone with that signature to at least give a thought to the populist rhetoric that is on the rise in right wing parties.

[Espe]

southern strategy

You clearly don't even understand what the term means. The RNC Chairman himself a few years back apologized for building a coalition of bigots and morons for the votes they can't outright steal. Again, the Democrats obviously have no equivalent. The Republicans relying on racist, sexist and homophobic dog-whistles and now outright open statements has no equivalent on the left. Period. Right-wingers doing seig heil nazi salutes at Trump rallies has no equivalent on the left. Period.

Again, your garbage false equivalencies reveal more about the desperation of the right-wing than anything else.

[tiptopmemer]

Left right politics.

The further the left pushes away from rational thinking, so do the conservatives push to the right.

Pick a side, class war is a brewin'.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you of all people chose to attack the source of the article without reading it. That you have the nerve to attack someone's motives after valiantly defending WikiLeaks is a quite a feat.

Do opposing views trigger you that much? So much for your supposed ability to think critically, yeah?

Only when opposing views comes from people of disreputable sources, or people whom bias is well known. A little bit like you, in fact.

It's sad, really, because I never felt that a forum member here would fit in a category of people whom I'd genuinely dislike. You managed that, so in a given way you should feel proud of yourself.

As for me, I read a lot of things opposing what I believe in. I spend a lot of my time doing just that -- but I've learned to differentiate genuine opinion articles from propaganda. This is a good piece of journalism: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...html?tid=ss_tw

Or this:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...pinions&wpmm=1

Now, I'm not usually a big fan of Washington post, so let me quote other articles from other websites which I feel are intelligent:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/op...?smid=tw-share

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...having-sex-ou/

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...lticulturalism

Also, the fact that you still believe Russia is behind Wikileaks is laughable. The fact that you then proceed to try to make me sound stupid to believe in that only serves to backfire against you, who believe in an even more unlikely conspiracy theory.

I do have to say that their leaked e-mails about the Yemen war were delicious to read, too.

[NineSpine]

Left right politics.

The further the left pushes away from rational thinking, so do the conservatives push to the right.

Pick a side, class war is a brewin'.

The movement of the U.S. political system has been rightward. As the Democrats have moved to the right since the early 90s, the Republicans have moved even further right in response.

[Kalis]

Racial separatism is not different from racial dominance. Even Disraeli's own work admits as such, including in the quotes I provided. It's also hilarious to use Disraeli as your example in this, when his chief legacy was aggressive, invasive expansion of the British Empire into territories where it brutalized people it viewed as lesser races.

It is different.

His point was that British people built Britain, Britain was great, therefore British people were great, and he carried that over to Arabs and others who had built great nations.

Nowadays it looks naive, but it was a pervasive attitude of his time and everything should be read in context of when it was written, as what people understood to be true over 150 years ago may look different to what we understand to be true today.

Have you ever read Tancred? Or any of Disraeli's works?

[Zandalarian Paladin]

It's an opinion piece. Even if you disagree with the Guardian I'd expect someone with that signature to at least give a thought to the populist rhetoric that is on the rise in right wing parties.

I do, actually. But it's hard to balance your thoughts when a given side abuse the other repeatedly. If the forums ever come close to be balanced, maybe you'll see a more diverse array of opinions from me. Until then, I'll defend the opinions that are being treated as blasphemy.

[nextormento]

Your argument is that justice isn't a thing because blah blah blah subjectivity vs objectivity blah blah blah it's all the same because some people have a different idea of justice. If slavery and not-slavery are all the same because some people think slavery is just, that is basically pointless nihilism and not the type of thing I'm interested in wasting my time on.

Justice is not subjective. It very much is a group effort.
It also is a thing: a social construct.
There is zero connection with nihilism on any of those ideas.

If you think "conservatism is protecting injustice", you are the one passing forward an idea of justice that is entirely alien to society.
And you think that this nonsense of protecting injustice is their ideology by definition. Heck, if you think you're wasting time responding, then don't... alas, I'm not sure if an argument cemented on a semantic dispute has much merit.
Feel free to actually advance your argument, instead of wailing your arms. You simply stated a bogus idea with absolutely no basis other your own imagination. In a one-liner no less. After a minimal challenge, you're failing, twice, to support it.

[Alydael]

Conservatives, by definition, resist change. Because of that, the party was able to take over the racist, bigoted, homophobic, poor and Christian fundamentalist crowds....all of which are literally about stopping change. Now they are serving 2 diametrically opposed masters, which creates the chaos that allows Dickhead to be their nominee.

You do realize that conservatives and republicans are behind basically all the civil rights legislation? They also had to fight the dem/ left tooth and nail to do it. The Dems actually had a former kkk grandwizard in a leadership position in the senate until almost the year 2000 (Donald Byrd).

The Dems have used their media propaganda machine to try to attach racism and bigotry to the republicans for decades now by highlighting fringe elements that attached themselves to the party and taking things out of context, etc. The public is lazy and does none of their own research, so they are very susceptable to lies by the media. The how the Dems are able to use the minorities as "voting blocks (a term coined by the dem media machine)."

It is quite sad how under the wing of the Dems, nothing has improved for minorities over decades. Some might even say the situation is getting worst, just look at Chicago and race relations in this country in general. Yet, when they sided with the pubs there were vast, sweeping changes (basically all the civil rights legislation). The Dems just use them for voting numbers. They don't care about them at all. Did Obama visit the NAACP in 2012? Nah, he totally took their vote for granted and sent "Sloppy Joe" Biden.

All the media machine has to try and paint Trump as a racist is some out of context quotes that the media ran with. Trump actually has a long history you can examine. He was never proven to be a racist in anyway. In fact, there are many minorities in prominent positions in his companies and on his tv shows. A racist would never do that.........

Just because conservatives resist change for the sake of change, does not mean they are close minded about change or are unwilling to change. That is just crap fed to you by the media. It just means they are thoughtful about change and want to make sure the new plan is better before they change from the old one....

[NineSpine]

It is different.

His point was that British people built Britain, Britain was great, therefore British people were great, and he carried that over to Arabs and others who had built great nations.

Nowadays it looks naive, but it was a pervasive attitude of his time and everything should be read in context of when it was written, as what people understood to be true over 150 years ago may look different to what we understand to be true today.

Have you ever read Tancred? Or any of Disraeli's works?

Yes, I have.

There is this historical myth that goes around that until very recently eeeeeeeeveryone was a virulent despicable racist and sexist. That isn't true. For hundreds of years there have been prominent voices against those ideas, and there were debates had about these issues. The people in power heard, considered, and rejected the arguments against racism and sexism. The idea that, for example, everyone in 1840 thought beating slaves to death and raping them was A-OK is just stupid and ahistorical.

Disraeli advocated racial separatism, and also said that separatism leads to superiority and war. In action, he used his power to subjugate people, including stealing from them and killing them, in order to advance what he clearly saw as the superior race: His own.

[Deleted]

Who in their right mind would ask The Guardian about their opinion of conservatism?

It's like asking Stalin what he thinks about the Jews.

It's not like everyone in the country lives in separate universes based on their political inclinations. Do you honestly think that everyone to the left of centre has no contact with right of centre folk, and that this might include some journalists? Grown ups just don't live like that other than the wingnuts to each extreme, or the uneducated, who believe that everyone who thinks differently to them on some matters is out to destroy them. As an example, look up who Boris and Jo Johnson are each married to. One is a human rights lawyer the other is a Guardian columnist.