Enough with the melee hate

[l33t]

Some things are just more annoying than others. And I think we can all agree that spending 5 minutes running around pillars doing a pve rotation until something dies is far more annoying than dying / killing something in 10 seconds and moving on. Both things are bad and there should be a middle ground, but lesser evil and all that.

So, the lesser evil is when you rape, not when you're being raped.

Nice to hear melee's perspective, yeah. I hope in next life you will be punished by playing a shadow priest in 2s during legion s1.

[RelaZ]

I don't know what you are smoking but Legion pvp is still filled with CC everywhere, so much free CC that people can just waste them with no problem.

I guess you mean that casters should have more CC, for example frost mage stun? Because frost mages need that, 4 snares, blink or shimmer, insta burst is not enough. No thanks, CC should be pruned a lot more actually and just keep it to a minimum. Utility abilities are far more interesting than just CC, especially stuns. There is no skill involved in "timing" your stun, lets not nourish any delusion typical of 2K2 people.

The fact that you call "timing" stuns skill-less shows why you are not high rated. I never spoke of Frost Mages specifically (other than deep should return, not without a complete makeover obviously though).

But sure you go ahead and prune more CC/utility. Make the game even more one dimensional and retarded to the point where a chimpanzee can play any class successfully - because all that's left is spamming dps buttons.

Jesus christ I bet you think football would be more skillful if people couldn't/weren't allowed to dribble or set up passing plays? "Dribbling requires no skill!!!!! it's so easy!!! Omg you top teams are so elitist when you say dribbling requires skill. Less dribbling!". That's what you sound like.

[Sylvaeres]

So with all the whining about melee being 'allegedly' overpowered I can't help but wonder -- What do you ranged people want?

Mages have more mobility than a monk, more CC than any non-warlock class, ice block that by all right should be a talent competing with double nova, respectable instant and on-the-move damage, spellsteal, polymorph, AND longest interrupt in the game.

A mage can kill any melee if he doesn't just stand on one spot and drool like a moron while wondering why he can't kill anything when after eating an interrupt he by his own choice doesn't cast anything for 20 seconds "BECAUSE HE'LL JUST INTERRUPT ME AGAIN!".

I won't list kit of every other ranged class as it's p. much common knowledge that druids (all specs) are way too mobile, hunters (when played well) are untouchable, ele shamans are great at kiting, and warlocks can easily tank 2 melees if they play smart. The only ranged I'd argue has genuine problems against melee is shadow priest; But again -- let him cast for 10 seconds and he'll destroy you, just like every other ranged.

This leads me to a conclusion that a lot of people that play ranged classes in wow are spoiled crybabies who's opinion on 'balanced gameplay' is when warriors and DKs are essentially free kills, and all a rogue can do is stun you for a bit then run away.

Ranged are fine. If you want tankiness, and more mobility, and to do more damage than a melee WHEN THAT MELEE IS WAILING ON YOU then I'm sorry but the problem isn't the game. The problem is you. I won't deny that certain melees (feral / WW / DH) are a bit overtuned for how mobile they are, but that's not a melee vs ranged problem. They kill other melees just as much as they kill wizards.

This whole melee vs ranged thing is stupid. In my opinion, the real problem is mobility / tankiness VS output. It's not tied to whether you're a melee or a ranged, but rather -- in a better designed system a class with as much ways to survive by various means as monk / mage / warlock / druid should also not be anywhere near top of the dps.

Holinka did say in pre-legion Q&A that they'll keep mobile classes from also being top dps. So far, only rogues were affected. Here's to hoping WW / MW / Mages / Druids / DH get some in 7.1.5 / 7.2, as well.

LOL you are fucking high on something if you compare Mage to any melees. I'm actually in shock from the stupidity of the statement

[Saberstrike]

So, the lesser evil is when you rape, not when you're being raped.

No. Lesser evil is when you get to play your character and punch things. It's not about whether I win or lose. It's about whether it happens before hell freezes over. Aka, I hate heavy-cc / rot comps which almost always revolve around mages, locks, hunters and druids.

I can sympathize with people who against all odds stuck with shadow despite troubling news since p. much all of alpha / beta. But honestly, it's not melees that make your life a pain. It's your own spec. And as i said, it's probably the only one that's so broken by design it was inexcusable how it came out in such state.

Kindof why I stay away from warriors now. I used to main a warrior and a priest in wrath. But after riding the 'you're op 20% of the time and trash the other 80%' I just rerolled a dk so I can be mostly mediocre, but at least functonal 90% of the time!

Jesus christ I bet you think football would be more skillful if people couldn't/weren't allowed to dribble or set up passing plays? "Dribbling requires no skill!!!!! it's so easy!!! Omg you top teams are so elitist when you say dribbling requires skill. Less dribbling!". That's what you sound like.

I betcha football would be more skillfull if they had like a second ball that you throw at enemy players and those players are out for half the match! CC will fix football!!!!!!

I don't think anyone is saying teamwork is bad. What people -are- saying is that teamwork with little to no counterplay (aka, 'cc the healer') is bad, which in a lot of cases is what you and a lot of ranged advocates call 'skillful', while also calling chain-stuns 'unskillful' even though they're the exact same thing.

Hypocrisy is annoying, y'know?

LOL you are fucking high on something if you compare Mage to any melees. I'm actually in shock from the stupidity of the statement

Constructive and helpful.

You know, when I give you a whole page to reply to and all you can come up with is "LOL U HIGH" you've p. much lost the argument. (:

Ranged is fine. I'm yet to see a good argument to why they're not (besides SP). Best we got so far is "Well there's more DKs than mages!" -- which is valid, but not enough to make claims like 'melee ruin pvp'.

[belky]

OK OK Melee vs Ranged can be debated all day. Can we all just agree that rogues are in a league of their own when it comes to bad?

[Saberstrike]

Ya, we can agree that rogues have been gimped beyond reason, and that frost / ret / WW / enh won't get ruined by a slight dmg nerf.

I personally consider rogues as 'curtains' rather than 'ranged or melee' (in a similar way to how warlocks are mushrooms) because they're not melee in a strict sense. The way I see it a rogue with it's current design should dip in and out of the fight during critical moments to secure kills / cc, or risk dying if played improperly.

The problem is that with the way the game is designed such playstyle is impossible, as you can't make rogue burst so good it can decide a match in a few seconds, and you also can't buff their survivability without turning them into unstoppable monsters they were at the end of cata.

Idk what the devs can do to rogues with the current kit. I think the class just needs to be remade from the ground up.

Though I can't help but feel like a lot of rogues' problems come from the fact casters have equal HP to warriors. Make mages / ranged have a legit weakness in 'being far away or being dead' and rogues are back with a vengeance with 0 changes required to the class, back to the role of 'scissors'. (Though I do also understand you can't just cut caster hp in half and leave everything else as is. it's just a thought! lay down your wands and pitchforks!)

[Applenazi]

Takes so much more skill to press polymorph than to walk to someone and press mortal strike, right?

It's such a bitch when your mortal strike gets locked, cloaked, ams'ed, reflected, trinketed, and clensed bro, totally a valid fucking comparison, not something a perma-challenger would say at all.

[Saberstrike]

It's such a bitch when your polymorph is out of range, out of range, out of range, dodged, parried, immuned, absorbed, or ignored entirely because it doesn't do anything without 4 cooldowns stacked ontop of it.

Poly is actually a great example to why ranged are more than fine. It hasn't been majorly changed since p. much game's launch, it remains a powerful cc / setup tool, whereas mortal strike (and warrior as a whole) is a shadow of it's former self -- if that.

[corebit]

Can we stop equating all ranged classes = mage?

Every time someone complains about range CC/mobility they only have mage (particularly frost mage) in mind. When developers see these complaints they go: "let's give melee more tools to catch up with mages!"

Meanwhile all the non-mage ranged classes that don't have as many escape tools get the shaft and melee can just go mongoloid over them and win.

[Applenazi]

It's such a bitch when your polymorph is out of range, out of range, out of range, dodged, parried, immuned, absorbed, or ignored entirely because it doesn't do anything without 4 cooldowns stacked ontop of it.

Poly is actually a great example to why ranged are more than fine. It hasn't been majorly changed since p. much game's launch, it remains a powerful cc / setup tool, whereas mortal strike (and warrior as a whole) is a shadow of it's former self -- if that.

It is actually quite annoying when poly is out of range, or LOS, you know that's a thing right? You're terrible at making examples. Also in case you missed it you just said 'I hate when I mortal strike into bubble or block for some unknown reason or mortal strike when I'm not positioned correctly' or put much more simply, 'I hate playing like garbage tier but I do it anyways and then cry on MMOChamp'. GG.

Literally everything you complained about can be avoided by just learning how to play. Also this thread doesn't seem to be about melee, it seems to be about warrior VS mage. Warriors need buffs right now, that's true. Rogue is actually pretty well balanced (It's Hpal that needs adjusting), but every other melee class is OP broken as fuck. Sorry warrior isn't free glad for maybe the third season since the start of arenas, just reroll frost DK like everyone else.

[Deleted]

The fact that you call "timing" stuns skill-less shows why you are not high rated. I never spoke of Frost Mages specifically (other than deep should return, not without a complete makeover obviously though).

But sure you go ahead and prune more CC/utility. Make the game even more one dimensional and retarded to the point where a chimpanzee can play any class successfully - because all that's left is spamming dps buttons.

Jesus christ I bet you think football would be more skillful if people couldn't/weren't allowed to dribble or set up passing plays? "Dribbling requires no skill!!!!! it's so easy!!! Omg you top teams are so elitist when you say dribbling requires skill. Less dribbling!". That's what you sound like.

Okay so again you get triggered, its really hard to take you seriously when you believe that stacking retarded stuns for every class is the way to go. And no fuck deep freeze it was way overkill for frost mages to have a braindead 5 seconds stun to burst you down as if they didn't already have more than enough tools to do that. I was right, you definitely smell of the typical FOTM who plays mage and wants to auto win against melee just because you feel you deserve it because "mage".


Stuns are nothing skillful at all, get it through your thick skull of yours. You might have this delusion when you burst someone down or switch to CC a healer but its not, just as using Los and dancing around pillars doesn't require much brainpower or any skill at all to do. You pvpers just love to overestimate the skillcap of this game don't you? But fine keep on believing that playing a caster suddenly makes you so much better than the filthy melee. Its not like both just dps/burst and CC...oh they actually do that. And you just ask for more CC?

And like I said stuns are not the same thing as utility. You know what is utility: ring of peace, hand of protection, dispel, shields, hamper magic, spell reflect,etc... don't just spin what I say to try to make a point. I'm all for utility, not for "lets distribute more CC for everyone by the dozen so that no one can control his character 50% of the match"

[Kreeshak]

How many players have gotten gladiator or rank 1 with RMP or RMD or god comp?
How many TSG's have gotten gladiator or rank 1?

Topic closed.

[Saberstrike]

It is actually quite annoying when poly is out of range, or LOS, you know that's a thing right? You're terrible at making examples. Also in case you missed it you just said 'I hate when I mortal strike into bubble or block for some unknown reason or mortal strike when I'm not positioned correctly' or put much more simply, 'I hate playing like garbage tier but I do it anyways and then cry on MMOChamp'. GG.

Literally everything you complained about can be avoided by just learning how to play. Also this thread doesn't seem to be about melee, it seems to be about warrior VS mage. Warriors need buffs right now, that's true. Rogue is actually pretty well balanced (It's Hpal that needs adjusting), but every other melee class is OP broken as fuck. Sorry warrior isn't free glad for maybe the third season since the start of arenas, just reroll frost DK like everyone else.

I can once again turn everything you said on yourself. Your ranged CC / dmg won't get LOS'd if you stop playing like a moron and just "learn to play" (whatever that even means these days?). This thread was a reaction to wizards crying about how "allegedly op" melee is, me explaining why they aren't, and it's ironic that you continue to cry about it here, while trying to make your point with vague nothing statements like "learn to play" and "you play like garbage".

Positioning is much harder for melee as most ranged have a permanent slow and if you're out of range you don't do anything, whereas if you're out of position as ranged you can argue you'd die, but here's the thing -- melees die too. And while a kited melee dies unable to do much of anything, a ranged that gets caught can still do something before he's pounded into the floor.

Also, if you think rogue is well balanced, I rest my case. I did reroll a DK. I also dusted off my paladin. But again, objectively speaking, the only classes that are below average right now are rogues and shadow priests. MAYBE holy paladins. The rest are fine. That includes eles and hunters that people like to bring up as being bad. Again, I'll agree that ww / dk / dh / ret could use a slight damage nerf. But the same is true for mages / warlocks / druids / hunters.

[dwightyo39]

You do realize hunters have been stripped of almost all mobility right?

You have double charge and heroic leap, hunters (MM) have... disengage? You can't even MOVE while casting aimed shot anymore.

When I last played a hunter, years ago, you had to stand still to cast aimed shot. That's how it should be.

[Deleted]

Using Reckful as example in an expansion where rogues had Recuperate is even more hilarious

No-one mentioned balance, you were saying and i quoted you sub was braind dead and had a low skill ceiling (or words to that effect) - which clearly isn't true.

Sure Rogues were op that video proves it, in the way he cc'd all three players but very people could actually pull it off.

Anyway all your posts have a sense of dismissive butt hurt.

[Heavens Night]

Sub has been a braindead spec since day 1, people thinking Sub required skill in the past is hilarious because it reminds me of Titan Grip warriors in S5 who claimed their skill allowed them to 1shot clothies or Ret paladins in Wotlk aswell when they were killing people in single 123 rotation without wings cd.

If we are to believe you Dunning-Kruger patients about melee requiring skill why are all BGs filled with nothing but melee these days? Does that mean everyone is uber skilled or maybe something else ?

The amount of utter garbage on this thread is astounding.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

as an unholy dk i don't really have problem with mages if i take clawing shadows but i don't do rated so maybe thats why. they are annoying as hell though.

[Stormspellz]

its takes 10 min of watching high end arena players to disprove the OP,

[Heavens Night]

No-one mentioned balance, you were saying and i quoted you sub was braind dead and had a low skill ceiling (or words to that effect) - which clearly isn't true.

Sure Rogues were op that video proves it, in the way he cc'd all three players but very people could actually pull it off.

Anyway all your posts have a sense of dismissive butt hurt.

Indeed, I get the feeling he was somehow mentally scared by Rogues.

[lolpve]

It's not a melee problem, it's certain melee specs having terrible design ie unhealable damage and/or unwarranted mobility.

I don't know why it's so hard for blizzard to balance every spec around 3 or 4 variables: damage / survivability / control / mobility. Some specs have everything and some specs almost nothing.