To all those ilvl fanboys

[Galbrei]

High ilvl doesn't guarantee high dps, you're right, but neither does low ilvl. If I had to choose I'd take my chances with the higher one... if I didn't do M+ exclusivelly with guildies to avoid this shit that is.

[Aggrophobic]

Again, once I sign up to join your group, you're going to see me as a 880 paladin (because that's what my overall ilvl is).
But I do have 872 ilvl gear equipped.
Now when you summon me, inspect me and find out I'm using a 835 ring you're going to grow somewhat suspicious.
I use that ring for a solid reason: it gives me 6% haste, and having 6% haste from a single piece of gear is pretty awesome because I can work towards obtaining gear with other useful stats without having to increase my haste rating any further.

But you don't gonna give a damn, you're just gonna be like "This retard is using a 835 BoE ring, has he just dinged or something?" and kick me.

In other words, whenever you pick a 880+ character over a 870 one, it doesn't always mean you made the right choice.

I honestly can't be bothered to argue anymore.

I can't say I've ever bother inspecting people for mythic+. Not unless we're failing and that player is the problem, with low DPS or whatever.
I get what you're saying and ilvl isn't everything in Legion (untill the stat changes in 7.1.5 at least) but why risk getting someone with low ilvl? It's usually a waste of time.

If this is a problem for you, join a guild or play with friends. Playing with pugs is usually not that great.

[Deleted]

The dps and high ilvl market is saturated, so you will get declined. It's frustating, i can do 400dps as total in a dungeon no probs being 865 with my alt mage, but i will get declined because people have an insane amount of dps with way higher total ilvl. It is the way it works.

[Gaidax]

Seems like OP fails to grasp the simple concept of 881+ > 880 and the fact that you have like 10 DDs applying the moment group is listed in LFD tool.

It's simple - when I form a group and need damage dealer, I first think about what kind of utility I am missing and invite accordingly and then go by ilvl. Not that Ret Paladin does not really have any major utility like Bloodlust or Brez, but it's also melee and melee queue is saturated as is.

As a group leader it is my responsibility to pick what I consider best for the group success, not to run some charity and pick ilvl 880 Rets who do not really offer anything dramatic to dungeon groups anyway, when I have a bunch of 885s with actual utility lining up.

---

Same goes for me when I queue myself, ilvl 890 helps but I also get declined plenty, simply because group probably needs something else at that point.

[Deleted]

ilvl872
514k DPS @Ursoc

so according to warcraftlogs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...din&bracket=16
top dps is 499k DPS for 872-874

so unless you got more proof to your story, i would call it a bunch of lies.

i agree, im calling poo lies too

[Verral]

880 Rets who do not really offer anything dramatic to dungeon groups anyway

1. One of the highest single target burst damage output in the game.
2. GBoM.
3. LoH, BoP, Cleanse.
4. Single target stun, massive disorient (which also interrupts otherwise uninterruptable casts).

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i agree, im calling poo lies too

Again, read the first post. It was HC.

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This whole thread is not about my frustration of not being able to make it into a pug, I get accepted into 9/10 pugs unless it's a boosting group which is clearly stated in the first post

It's about people underestimating the overall value of ret paladins and overestimating ilvl as the main guideline which is neither fair nor reasonable

[Lucifer Morningstar]

1. One of the highest single target burst damage output in the game.
2. GBoM.
3. LoH, BoP, Cleanse.
4. Single target stun, massive disorient (which also interrupts otherwise uninterruptable casts).

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Again, read the first post. It was HC.

I have 2 alts that I casually raid with and they are both at 883/881 ilvl in bags and 871/874 equipped.

What I noticed is that when I was just starting with 855 crafted gear, I was queuing with 855ilvl (860bags) and nobody would take me.

Keep in mind I was a mage.


It went so much easier and faster making my own group instead of crying to myself that people did not take my low ilvl alt.

Threads like this will do nothing to further your noble cause. People act instinctively and I find myself doing exactly what everyone else in this thread has been saying often. Taking highest ilvl and best classes, while sometimes declining those 890 applicants because of bad ego experience.

[scrynlock]

1. One of the highest single target burst damage output in the game.
2. GBoM.
3. LoH, BoP, Cleanse.
4. Single target stun, massive disorient (which also interrupts otherwise uninterruptable casts).

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Again, read the first post. It was HC.

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This whole thread is not about my frustration of not being able to make it into a pug, I get accepted into 9/10 pugs unless it's a boosting group which is clearly stated in the first post

It's about people underestimating the overall value of ret paladins and overestimating ilvl as the main guideline which is neither fair nor reasonable

While i agree that rets are amazing in 5mans, citing GBoM as something useful to the group... fucking lol.

[emedia]

Hello there.
I'm casually playing a ret pally, and by casually I mean I no longer raid mythic which I used to do.

I haven't killed a single boss in EN mythic / ToV mythic, I only do HC raids from time to time and only do sub-10 mythic dungeons and Kara.
Currently got 872 ilvl equipped.

So whenever I apply for Maw of Souls boosting groups I get declined for whatever reasons.
I guess it might be that 880 overall ilvl (which the group leaders see when I sign up) isn't high enough to be able to do a +7 or +9 MoS.
Or it's probably rumors that ret paladins are bad in any situation, have no utility whatsoever and the group can't benefit from having a ret.

Now what I want everyone to understand is that ilvl DOESN'T guarantee higher dps. IT. DOES. NOT.
Even a 10 ilvl difference DOESN'T mean the character with lower ilvl is far worse in terms of damage output.
Secondary stats, trinkets and item bonuses STILL matter A LOT.

My simDPS is 459724. I managed to pull 514K dps on Ursoc HC last week (before I had a chance to level my artifact to 35 which is a plain 5% dmg increase).

Now my friend who is also a ret with 7/7 EN M and 2/3 ToV M experience and 889 ilvl equipped with 2 best in slot legendaries sims for 441330 dps.

Notice that it's a 18k difference.

PLEASE STOP being the victims of stereotypes and learn to use something except Pawn.
At least check warcraftlogs before mindlessly declining people who can actually shine in your group.

sure thing my dude

[Verral]

While i agree that rets are amazing in 5mans, citing GBoM as something useful to the group... fucking lol.

In higher level keystones, every bit counts.
A single failed prepot might result in a wipe.
So extra 5-10% of pala total damage is really, really handy.

[Gaidax]

1. One of the highest single target burst damage output in the game.
2. GBoM.
3. LoH, BoP, Cleanse.
4. Single target stun, massive disorient (which also interrupts otherwise uninterruptable casts).

Which is all absolutely pointless, nobody gives a damn about your single target stun or massive disorient on massive CD, when you have classes and specs that offer AoE stun at like 30 seconds CD, which is amazing in any decent M+ especially with Necrotic or Raging and such around.

Same with LoH and BoP which may offer minor utility here and there, but that's about it, compared to, for example, Battle Rez, which is fantastic and I am not even sure why you list Blessing of Might as if it's some utility, it's merely part of your damage, it's not free, that's all.

Also Cleanse? lol... When was the last time you actually did something meaningful with it in a group?

For example let's see who group should take, you or me? 890 Warlock - ranged with 30 sec CD AoE stun and Combat Rez or you - 880 melee with pretty much nothing consistently useful. And this trend continues further on - you have plenty of higher ilvl DDs queuing with actual great utility and not some made up shit like you offered that effectively is nothing.

Choice is easy and that is why you get declined right and left, there is plenty of the fish in the ocean and quite better fish too.

[Cynep]

i agree, im calling poo lies too

sure thing my dude

On one hand, if you two bothered to make two clicks, you could see that the OP is world #6 in his ilvl bracket. (not the greatest achievement, but he's right and you're wrong)

On the other hand, seriously, who will check logs and armories for a random 5man? People just take what's higher quickly and gogogo.

[Wenoxar]

Well, I would do the same thing after checking your armory.
At least I hope you've got Medivh trinket in your bags.

It is not about me, it is about you. You had just made a thread about your ilvl issue. Now you care about ilvl, checking armory, that kind of thing? Are you a hypocrite?

[Verral]

Which is all absolutely pointless, nobody gives a damn about your single target stun or massive disorient on massive CD, when you have classes and specs that offer AoE stun at like 30 seconds CD, which is amazing in any decent M+ especially with Necrotic or Raging and such around.

Same with LoH and BoP which may offer minor utility here and there, but that's about it, compared to, for example, Battle Rez, which is fantastic and I am not even sure why you list Blessing of Might as if it's some utility, it's merely part of your damage, it's not free, that's all.

Also Cleanse? lol... When was the last time you actually did something meaningful with it in a group?

For example let's see who group should take, you or me? 890 Warlock - ranged with 30 sec CD AoE stun and Combat Rez or you - 880 melee with pretty much nothing consistently useful. And this trend continues further on - you have plenty of higher ilvl DDs queuing with actual great utility and not some made up shit like you offered that effectively is nothing.

Choice is easy and that is why you get declined right and left, there is plenty of the fish in the ocean and quite better fish too.

I'd rather have a druid healer if I wanted a combat rez in my comp.
Cleanse? I use it all the time. Mobs before Xavius in DHT, mobs in the cave in EoA, the 3d boss in NL. Pretty much everywhere. You're probably unlucky enough to not meet ret paladins who actually have Cleanse on their action bars.

As for an AoE stun, I'd rather have a DH. And obviously a fire mage as a ranged dps. Depends on the affixes though.

Calling BoP a minor utility skill is just plain dumb because it allows you to COMPLETELY bypass certain mechanics (spear on the first boss in EoA, Hateful Gaze on the third boss in BRH...)

LoH is something you want to have yourself because it's too overpowered, but you'll never going to confirm it because you're too proud to do it.

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It is not about me, it is about you. You had just made a thread about your ilvl issue. Now you care about ilvl, checking armory, that kind of thing? Are you a hypocrite?

I don't have any issues with my ilvl, I do feel comfortable about it.
I'm trying to make people understand ilvl =/= amazing performance.

[Wenoxar]

This is true if you use such a wide gap. The problem is often times you will see that 877 when you are asking for 880 and decline the invite. It is hard to differ that a skill 877 isn't blowing away a derp that just got lucky in world quests at 880. Of course that is also using two extremes as well. But it makes the point that item level isn't king all in a tigher quarter which a lot of people do need to figure out.

I couldn't agree more. But most often I solve this problem with setting up minimum ilvl to 885~890. Basically at this point whoever has 890 is at least a little bit skilled. I just invite whoever feels the most appropriate for the situation. Do I need an aoe stun? Single target dps? Or do I just need last person to fill out party?

[cFortyfive]

So extra 5-10% of pala total damage is really, really handy.

I presume he "fucking lold" because it's a normal part of the paladin damage kit and makes about as much sense as mentioning your mage brings fireballs.
that said this is what people wanted. I hope the trend continues and the requirements get higher every week.

[Choda]

I'm a 887 (881 equipped) mage with Cutting Edge Xavius and all "necesary" achievements (Nightbane and M+10 in time). I still get declined more often than not for 4-6 runs. DPS are a dime a dozen, it's just statistics, nothing to get riled up about.

[Eazy]

There's a higher probability that person with higher ilvl will have higher DPS and have better knowledge than the person with lower ilvl.

It doesn't mean that someone with 890ilvl will always have better knowledge and higher DPS than someone with 875ilvl, but when people want to play a game they don't have time to talk with players/check their logs etc.

[klogaroth]

Why don't more groups invite me? I'm such a *nice* DPSer. I bet all the DPSers they invite are jerks. Groups love to invite jerks. Then they moan about it, when they should've just invited me.

[epLe]

1. Melee Bloat - way too many melee specs competing for few spots.

2. Nobody likes bubble boys.
Seriously, Paladins has always been considered "dummy" class, even when remodeled a few times, perception is much slower to change.

3. No Pug cares about warcraft logs, or if you do 10% more or less dmg than someone.
Fanboying meters, logs or any numbers, is exactly the same as fanboying Item levels.