Warlock: The Death of a Class in WoW

[Deleted]

Your argument has literally been 'the numbers are fine, you just can't handle playing it'. You've offered absolutely nothing in respect to detail of even why you prefer it as it is, or why you think alternative suggestions aren't improvements and you like things the way they are. What am I supposed to understand about your point of view beyond that you think everything is perfect and we should accept everything as it is, because you say so?

You're even saying Blizzard are wrong for agreeing with community complaints... But not because you actually like the mechanics. Your reasoning just seems so wrong headed; attacking the community and other players without defending the very things those players are attacking.

Like I said, you cannot understand. You got a brain problem I'm not gonna deal with.

[Dwill]

Like I said, you cannot understand. You got a brain problem I'm not gonna deal with.

So do you actually have any arguments except the fact you consider yourself a better player than other people based upon criterias you've set yourself therefore you're right and everybody else is wrong ? Because the class is even remotely as complex as you're making it out to be so it's not just a case of people being unable to "handle the class".

[evertonbelmontt]

@Colactic

Diplomacy is an art, and right now it's ironic that an inteligent person like you doesn't understand that, no matter if you're right or not, people don't want to LISTEN to what you say because you are nothing more than bad manner for them with your "arguments".

And it's not like you don't care, because you're posting here so vehemently. Do yourself a favor and learn how to argue or you're gonna get banned soon.

[Deleted]

Be nice! He must be cold and lonely under that bridge.

Infracted

[Deleted]

So do you actually have any arguments except the fact you consider yourself a better player than other people based upon criterias you've set yourself therefore you're right and everybody else is wrong ? Because the class is even remotely as complex as you're making it out to be so it's not just a case of people being unable to "handle the class".

What I want is someone that knows as much about the class as I to debate it with.

I have a hard time taking anyone else seriously because their opinions are biased.

[Dwill]

What I want is someone that knows as much about the class as I to debate it with.

I have a hard time taking anyone else seriously because their opinions are biased.

So you don't, thanks for answering. Also thanks for the massive irony (bolded part in case it's not clear enough) from your statement.

[Tramzh]

What I want is someone that knows as much about the class as I to debate it with.

I have a hard time taking anyone else seriously because their opinions are biased.

im curious, what makes you consider yourself so knowledgable?

[Deleted]

im curious, what makes you consider yourself so knowledgable?

My high level of execution. I wouldn't be doing the numbers I do if I didn't know what I was doing.

It's kinda funny, when I first joined my guild before Legion I was set to be the only Warlock. Eventually another one turned up, and she has done okay. However, when I started to win DPS on just about every single progress kill, and pretty much all other farm kills, 8 Warlock alts have popped up.

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So you don't, thanks for answering. Also thanks for the massive irony (bolded part in case it's not clear enough) from your statement.

You don't seem to get it.

I have griefs with my spec. Things I could consider changing. But they are not nearly as bad people make them out to be. The reason for that is because people just aren't giving it a chance. They touched it once and went "NOPE imma outta here".

I do a lot of damage in my raids. I'm good at Demo, and if I ever met another Demo player that did what I did I'd be way more willing to listen to what another person thinks about the spec, because I don't trust the opinion of someone who hasn't put in the hours I have.

What people don't seem to get is that there are things we simply cannot just change in our rotation without causing massive repercussions.
Example: Removing Life Tap and making warlock spells essentially free of cost.
First of Blizzard will be forced to drop our damage to compensate for our extra GCD's, seconly they'd have to consider how much to impact the damage seeing as Life Tap is in fact a movement ability. Need to be 10 yards in that direction? Cast 2 Life Taps on the way. After that Blizzard might feel the need to reimplement our mobility in the form of making another spell instant cast, lets say Demonic Empowerment. Now they've upped our damage again and we need to take a second round of nerfs to compensate for it. Then they'd have to nerf our tankyness seeing as it's their to off set the life lost from Life Tap. By doing that you know it will cause a shit storm from the community considering how heavily people whined about the changes to Demon Skin.

As you can see, a small change has ripple effects. Did you consider that? I sure as hell did and that is why I am not allways to keen on changes as they will need te be adressed in the balance department sooner or later.

[Keldion]

What I want is someone that knows as much about the class as I to debate it with.

I have a hard time taking anyone else seriously because their opinions are biased.

Replace your computer monitor with a mirror. Everyone wins!

[Deleted]

My high level of execution. I wouldn't be doing the numbers I do if I didn't know what I was doing.

It's kinda funny, when I first joined my guild before Legion I was set to be the only Warlock. Eventually another one turned up, and she has done okay. However, when I started to win DPS on just about every single progress kill, and pretty much all other farm kills, 8 Warlock alts have popped up.

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You don't seem to get it.

I have griefs with my spec. Things I could consider changing. But they are not nearly as bad people make them out to be. The reason for that is because people just aren't giving it a chance. They touched it once and went "NOPE imma outta here".

I do a lot of damage in my raids. I'm good at Demo, and if I ever met another Demo player that did what I did I'd be way more willing to listen to what another person thinks about the spec, because I don't trust the opinion of someone who hasn't put in the hours I have.

What people don't seem to get is that there are things we simply cannot just change in our rotation without causing massive repercussions.
Example: Removing Life Tap and making warlock spells essentially free of cost.
First of Blizzard will be forced to drop our damage to compensate for our extra GCD's, seconly they'd have to consider how much to impact the damage seeing as Life Tap is in fact a movement ability. Need to be 10 yards in that direction? Cast 2 Life Taps on the way. After that Blizzard might feel the need to reimplement our mobility in the form of making another spell instant cast, lets say Demonic Empowerment. Now they've upped our damage again and we need to take a second round of nerfs to compensate for it. Then they'd have to nerf our tankyness seeing as it's their to off set the life lost from Life Tap. By doing that you know it will cause a shit storm from the community considering how heavily people whined about the changes to Demon Skin.

As you can see, a small change has ripple effects. Did you consider that? I sure as hell did and that is why I am not allways to keen on changes as they will need te be adressed in the balance department sooner or later.

Your first error is definign everything in terms of performance

Your second error is presuming that people must change their opinion to match yours over time. It's like insisting that someone who hates the taste of coffee continue to drink it because eventually they will love it because, after all, you love coffee and you are right.

What's enjoyable or fun is entirely subjective and personal. People can fail to enjoy something not because they are dumb, find it "too hard"

Just saying "they aren;t givin git a chance" or "they tried it once and walked away" is a massive assumption and generalisation on your part.

Liek I said, enjoyment can be a purely subjective thing, you enjoy demo and make it work for you, others make it work but don;t enjoy the DE aspect, others just didn;t like it but thought they would if it was different (such as "I like the idea of an army of dmeons but not the way it was implemented") and some just didn;t like it at alland walked and never will like it because they found a pet class is not their thing.

There is a whole spectrum of opinions, all of them are as valid as yours. You've set yourself up on such a high pedestal and convinced yourself that your own view is paramount because you do a lot of damage. "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid" is not a good position.

You like demo as it is? Great. Sadly there is substantial evidence that the majority of players dont; agree with you. Not least the devlopers statements that the current state of demo is viewed by them as problematic. But according to you, that just means they want to "stop people whining"

[Deleted]

Master of demon's is just to laugh. Imp master would be beter. And in fact we had more imps spawned in the old demo version ..
An example just out of my head. Keep imps (HoG) and dogs but the more you spawn the more demo furry you gain. When full furry KTC speak a demonic spell that opens up a summon portal that spawns a hord of Fellguards rushing to the enemy and bladestorm and after bladestorm disappear.

would that be not giving you a more master summoner feeling ?

[Deleted]

I do have to say I think Colactic is right in saying there won't be much change to demonic empowerment. The problem is that managing soul shards, cooldowns and chaining summons to optimise demonic empowerment usage and what demons are out for Thalkiel's is what adds the skill cap to demonology. If you take it away or just make it a passive buff for X seconds there would be very little depth to the rotation.

So if they removed or changed demonic empowerment they would have to add in some other interesting mechanic to take it's place. Maybe they're thinking about this but I suspect people will be waiting a long time for changes this expansion.

[Skullbound]

Not a lock player, but all I hear I banter from locks. And I just read a couple pages here but from what I got is people don't locks IIke the feel even if it does well. That's hilarious. Be happy that your class does well on most fights unlike some others.

[Deleted]

Replace your computer monitor with a mirror. Everyone wins!

Then how do I play?

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Your first error is definign everything in terms of performance

Your first error is assuming that I do that.

Your second error is presuming that people must change their opinion to match yours over time. It's like insisting that someone who hates the taste of coffee continue to drink it because eventually they will love it because, after all, you love coffee and you are right.

Your second error is assuming that I believe that people which have my level of knowledge when it comes to the spec will agree with everything I say. Opinions differ, I just don't respect those coming from someone who don't know jack shit about the thing they are complaining about.

Also, coffee is notoriously known as a drink that you need to learn to like. For a huge quanitity of people it goes from not liking to loving. Perfect use of examples there mate.

What's enjoyable or fun is entirely subjective and personal. People can fail to enjoy something not because they are dumb, find it "too hard"

Just saying "they aren;t givin git a chance" or "they tried it once and walked away" is a massive assumption and generalisation on your part.

"Not giving it a chance" is a very common fault with people which prematurely judge an activity without giving it a fair chance. It's something that has been going on since forever. How can you NOT know this?

Like I said, enjoyment can be a purely subjective thing, you enjoy demo and make it work for you, others make it work but don;t enjoy the DE aspect, others just didn;t like it but thought they would if it was different (such as "I like the idea of an army of dmeons but not the way it was implemented") and some just didn;t like it at alland walked and never will like it because they found a pet class is not their thing.

I think you SEVERELY overestimate how many that group of people actually are. The vast majority falls into the "Couldn't properly use the ability and just gave up on it without looking into it's optimal usage". That is something I do NOT respect at all.

As far as not liking pet specs, why the fuck are you even touching Demo? Read the goddamn spec description.

There is a whole spectrum of opinions, all of them are as valid as yours. You've set yourself up on such a high pedestal and convinced yourself that your own view is paramount because you do a lot of damage. "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid" is not a good position.

No, they are not. An educated opinion is notoriously known as more valuable in all circumstances. That is why YOU want a carpenter to make decisions on how to build your new staircase and not a milk man.

You like demo as it is? Great. Sadly there is substantial evidence that the majority of players dont; agree with you. Not least the devlopers statements that the current state of demo is viewed by them as problematic. But according to you, that just means they want to "stop people whining"

Developers have done that for ages, it's a shame you didn't know. By "acknowledging" a problem that a lot of people have they stem the masses and create a cleaner forum, allowing more PROPER feedback to go through.

[Deleted]

@Socronoss

Your opinion has it's weight but some people care too much about dps because that's what the game is for them, to try their best, but they can never succeed because they're the unluckyest.

Gahddo is a tryhard but in the end I agree he's right, if we we're toping the metters the feeling of the class would still matter, but matter a lot less because it would be tolerable.

And I rarely see someone saying he got fucking shit on by rng, and instead blames the class by not having the numbers, and then someone comes here and link logs of some warlocks doing much more. Chances are the warlocks in the logs are the better players, but also have the better luck. I would as far as say that it even has a psychological aspect to it LOL

Warlocks are balanced arround having those legendaries, that's the truth. As you said, you will be good, but won't be amazing even if you're an amazing player.

Well, isn't that true for all classes? What if warlocks were top on the meters. Wouldn't that then mean that Rogues and Warriors and Paladins have exactly the same problem that you are complaining now: Being amazing would not make them #1 on the meters either, then, would it?

Kind of my point: If you compare yourself to other locks, then it does not really matter how good/bad/clunky a class is, because the other one has exactly the same. If you are starting to compare the lock to other classes' "max" dps, then it gets complicated, because all of them want to be #1...

[evertonbelmontt]

Well, isn't that true for all classes? What if warlocks were top on the meters. Wouldn't that then mean that Rogues and Warriors and Paladins have exactly the same problem that you are complaining now: Being amazing would not make them #1 on the meters either, then, would it?

Kind of my point: If you compare yourself to other locks, then it does not really matter how good/bad/clunky a class is, because the other one has exactly the same. If you are starting to compare the lock to other classes' "max" dps, then it gets complicated, because all of them want to be #1...

Yes, they would complain, but it would be still better because they're not limited in design like Warlocks.

Our weaknesses are very obvious for each spec and you just can't do some things without REALLY sacrificing others, while some classes has it much better, so chances are they will compete in every raid enviroment. But since we're talking about legendaries, and being #1, you need to consider that even with the best legendaries, warlocks are still limited in their spec of choice, while mages and SPriests can just be good on every fight because their weaknesses is "make believe".

In 7.1.5 some of the changes intensifies that. The sinergy between malefic grasp and Siphon Life is strong enough that they felt the disparity between having single OR having AoE (as of right now with afflic, just do karazhan nightbane run with/without StS to get a glimpse, no overgear would be a bonus to watch) was too much and they buffed baseline seed and nerfed the StS to stay the same overall or a little bit better for packs of 3 mobs.

[Dwill]

You don't seem to get it.

I have griefs with my spec. Things I could consider changing. But they are not nearly as bad people make them out to be. The reason for that is because people just aren't giving it a chance. They touched it once and went "NOPE imma outta here".

I do a lot of damage in my raids. I'm good at Demo, and if I ever met another Demo player that did what I did I'd be way more willing to listen to what another person thinks about the spec, because I don't trust the opinion of someone who hasn't put in the hours I have.

What people don't seem to get is that there are things we simply cannot just change in our rotation without causing massive repercussions.
Example: Removing Life Tap and making warlock spells essentially free of cost.
First of Blizzard will be forced to drop our damage to compensate for our extra GCD's, seconly they'd have to consider how much to impact the damage seeing as Life Tap is in fact a movement ability. Need to be 10 yards in that direction? Cast 2 Life Taps on the way. After that Blizzard might feel the need to reimplement our mobility in the form of making another spell instant cast, lets say Demonic Empowerment. Now they've upped our damage again and we need to take a second round of nerfs to compensate for it. Then they'd have to nerf our tankyness seeing as it's their to off set the life lost from Life Tap. By doing that you know it will cause a shit storm from the community considering how heavily people whined about the changes to Demon Skin.

As you can see, a small change has ripple effects. Did you consider that? I sure as hell did and that is why I am not allways to keen on changes as they will need te be adressed in the balance department sooner or later.

Oh I get it plenty fine, the fine aspect of balance aren’t as complicated as you’re making it to be. Heck, you even think that because you can play a spec that isn’t even that challenging to play and can even be made easier via Weak Auras makes you some kind of superior player. The reality of things is that there are many people that are just as good as you think you are (a yet to be proven claim by the way) and even better players.

You are not special because you can play Demo decently and have a basic understanding of class balance 101.

Oh yeah also, ib4 “brain problems, you don’t get it, my knowledge is superior, etc”.

[Deleted]

Oh, forget it; not only is he not interested in anyone else's opinion, he doesn;t even think they've got a right to one unless they can dmeonstrate their worthiness in a videogame

[Deleted]

Oh I get it plenty fine, the fine aspect of balance aren’t as complicated as you’re making it to be. Heck, you even think that because you can play a spec that isn’t even that challenging to play and can even be made easier via Weak Auras makes you some kind of superior player. The reality of things is that there are many people that are just as good as you think you are (a yet to be proven claim by the way) and even better players.

You are not special because you can play Demo decently and have a basic understanding of class balance 101.

Oh yeah also, ib4 “brain problems, you don’t get it, my knowledge is superior, etc”.

You really underestimating balancing, and me.

Whatever I'm done here, you are clearly a lost cause, goodbye.

[Jessicka]

Oh I get it plenty fine, the fine aspect of balance aren’t as complicated as you’re making it to be. Heck, you even think that because you can play a spec that isn’t even that challenging to play and can even be made easier via Weak Auras makes you some kind of superior player. The reality of things is that there are many people that are just as good as you think you are (a yet to be proven claim by the way) and even better players.

You are not special because you can play Demo decently and have a basic understanding of class balance 101.

Oh yeah also, ib4 “brain problems, you don’t get it, my knowledge is superior, etc”.

This is their armory by the way: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eedojin/simple It's not terrible, not really better or worse than I was looking at in the middle of expansion when I had to quit raiding; but certainly not worth the hype they're dishing out. Not a lot of history before SoO either to be claiming such unparalleled knowledge. :/

They need a bit more humility and to not put so much stock into their stats with such an under-represented class.