Do Destro locks really want Embers back?

[Scathbais]

I am not speaking to the aesthetics of having Embers but the playstyle of generating Embers via emberbits.

Personally (with Feretory of Souls and 25% Soulsnatcher) I am swimming in shards. I realize most don't have Feretory but shard generation could be increased baseline. I am not sure the old Embers would solve any of our current problems (besides class identity): lousy mastery, immobility, terrible talents and some less than useful artifact traits.

So what do you think: Keep current shard mechanics but fix other issues, revert to emberbits, or something else?

Edit: I wanted to add a poll but not sure how to do it.
Edit edit: Figured out the poll thing!

[Deleted]

Personally (without Feretory of Souls and 25% Soulsnatcher) I am not swimming in shards. I am sure the old Embers would solve my current problems with ressource generation - like it did the last 2 expacs.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Scathbais I'm indifferent for the most part, both have their goods and bads. Right now with the all or nothing method of shards we end up having issues spending shards fast enough while trying to compete with the priority system in our kit. It also makes shards generated from immolate feel a lot more rng since it's all or nothing.

at the end of the day it shouldn't change much, it'll just feel different. I actually think the sillier thing is that embers really honed in on spec identity as an aesthetic and they're planning on keeping them as shards even though they won't function in any way like shards.

Personally (without Feretory of Souls and 25% Soulsnatcher) I am not swimming in shards. I am sure the old Embers would solve my current problems with ressource generation - like it did the last 2 expacs.

I don't see why, baseline generation is roughly the same if not a little higher than non-charred remains generation. I'm not sure what you think embers will change besides the method you receive the same amount of shards.

[Deleted]

[...]
I don't see why, baseline generation is roughly the same if not a little higher than non-charred remains generation. I'm not sure what you think embers will change besides the method you receive the same amount of shards.

Yes it is higher now, therefor cb as a spender does less dmg. I really liked the hard hitting Cb and so the old ratio between spending time on generator/spender.
Also the greater poolvalue made it more pleasent to "safe" dmg for priority/dmg phases.

On a side note:
This also goes for Rain of Fire. The use of it, as it is right now, is a nightmare for me. applying immolates and waiting for shards.. *zzZZzz*

edit:
Generally it feels like i am waiting and praying to much for shards, instead of working for them like before.

[Netherspark]

I think it can feel a bit frustrating when dealing with partials, it feels like more effort to build them up, especially in a pinch. It also means having to monitor your shards more closely.

With the current system I think combat flows better, there's a rhythm to it. You don't really need to pay much attention to your soul shards, you generally just know how many you have.

It's not perfect, but I think I prefer the new shard system.

[Uzkin]

Voted "revert to emberbits". I liked the MoP/WoD destruction much more than the Legion design. Of course, soul shards are nowhere near the only problem the current destro is suffering from.

[Gaidax]

Honestly, do not really care. Either is fine by me.

I'd say the problem with current implementation is that you simply end up spamming too many Chaos Bolts, because the resource is coming up so fast and it's going to be worse with tier. It's a silly problem where the issue is not generation but being unable to really spend it all without wasting shards. As a byproduct, because you spam Chaos Bolt so much, they can't help but make it weaker than it should be thematically - a reckless blast of Chaos that craters your target.

Problem with Embers baseline on the other was that you could spend ridiculous time spamming filler, unless CR and/or final tier of expansion with jacked up stats and tier bonuses.

Bottom line, either way it's fine really, maybe Ember Shards will lead to things slowing down a bit and instead power will be restored for Chaos Bolt.

[Redsoldier06]

I personally don't mind the current destruction, with two of the 8% increased crit chance relics and me sitting at 23% crit chance I have a constant, steady flow of shards all the time.

On the other hand, even though this wasn't supposed to be mentioned I do wish they would bring back the fiery glow destruction had even with shards, it would be really nice.

[muto]

No, I don't want embers back as I'm used to the soulshard playstyle now.

[Deleted]

right now my class plays me

rng rng rng and more rng

can't wait til we get 'embers' back

[Deleted]

Reverting to "embers", or the way Destructions resources are build up, is a good idea imo. It makes the way you gain Soul Shards less RNG, easier to predict.

If I'm waiting for my Doomguard to come off CD and I want to pop a pot when it does, I also want to have as much Soul Shards as I can without risking to cap them for 10 seconds. I want to able to predict Soul Shard income instead of getting a random proc.

I'd also like to see the MoP playstyle return a bit, where the rate in which you gained Embers was lower then the Chaosbolt spam that is live now. I liked that I had to save my Chaosbolts on Garrosh so I could push 2 of them into the add on the balcony and Garrosh himself. I liked that I had to manage my Chaosbolt usage and the fact that I had trinket procs that made them hit like tanks. Now they don't feel special anymore... it's just another spell you spam.

Personal preference I suppose, but I liked the old system a LOT better then the current system.

[Roujeaux]

Definitely prefer Emberbit granularity. Gives me a greater sense of control over my damage. The revert can't come fast enough for me.

[Deleted]

Reverting to "embers", or the way Destructions resources are build up, is a good idea imo. It makes the way you gain Soul Shards less RNG, easier to predict.

If I'm waiting for my Doomguard to come off CD and I want to pop a pot when it does, I also want to have as much Soul Shards as I can without risking to cap them for 10 seconds. I want to able to predict Soul Shard income instead of getting a random proc.

I'd also like to see the MoP playstyle return a bit, where the rate in which you gained Embers was lower then the Chaosbolt spam that is live now. I liked that I had to save my Chaosbolts on Garrosh so I could push 2 of them into the add on the balcony and Garrosh himself. I liked that I had to manage my Chaosbolt usage and the fact that I had trinket procs that made them hit like tanks. Now they don't feel special anymore... it's just another spell you spam.

Personal preference I suppose, but I liked the old system a LOT better then the current system.

I agree

the ember system WITHOUT Charred Remains was perfection

[Deleted]

Well, another "Careful what you wish for lesson" here i guess...

Dev said we will get ember system back. Everyone will cheer.
Then they realize that it's an ember system with RNG attached to it (we most probably will not get the "emberbit on incinerate" mechanics back since that would require them to also redesign the artifact). Effectively, nothing changes but Soulshards can now be between 0 and 1 and are called something else.

They will most probably also use this change to mask the feretory nerf that will definitely come. 15% chance for emberbit instead of 15% chance for complete soul shard.

Lastly, I dare bet that there will be no increase in the damage of a chaos bolt, even though the change will reduce the number of CBs we can cast.

Pack mentality is funny sometimes.

[Roujeaux]

Problem with Embers baseline on the other was that you could spend ridiculous time spamming filler, unless CR and/or final tier of expansion with jacked up stats and tier bonuses.

Bottom line, either way it's fine really, maybe Ember Shards will lead to things slowing down a bit and instead power will be restored for Chaos Bolt.

Allowing Conflagrate to continue to generate 1 whole Soul Shard or at least 3-5 partial Shards should alleviate those excessive times of filler casting. It should also keeps its Haste scaling, making its bonus Shards on crit unnecessary.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, another "Careful what you wish for lesson" here i guess...

Dev said we will get ember system back. Everyone will cheer.
Then they realize that it's an ember system with RNG attached to it (we most probably will not get the "emberbit on incinerate" mechanics back since that would require them to also redesign the artifact). Effectively, nothing changes but Soulshards can now be between 0 and 1 and are called something else.

They will most probably also use this change to mask the feretory nerf that will definitely come. 15% chance for emberbit instead of 15% chance for complete soul shard.

Lastly, I dare bet that there will be no increase in the damage of a chaos bolt, even though the change will reduce the number of CBs we can cast.

Pack mentality is funny sometimes.

Something like this did cross my mind. Wow I hope the devs don't screw this up.......

[effs]

Something like this did cross my mind. Wow I hope the devs don't screw this up.......

They do no such thing!

[Shodan30]

I'm not sure if the emberbits are any kind of real solution to the real problems that plauge the class. Mostly speaking I think our greatest problems are:

Mobility : Blizzard is constantly forgetting in its boss design about this problem and how hard it hits specs like Destro whos dependant on a long casting time spell like Chaos Bolt. Frankly I think the value of a Chaos bolt should be greater considering we have to generate the embers.. For instance , make us earn the embers while standing still, but let us cast Chaos Bolt while moving. Considering that is exactly what they gave us with Dimensional Rift, Blizzard obviously thinks this is something the class needs.

General Gameplay purpose discrepency.: Our Spec is too jack-of-all trades. It's like they wanted us to be the cleave specalists but the only talents that support that is WH while several of our Talents are wasted by giving us much weaker single target or AOE options. In a large way it reminds me of the old three tier talent trees crammed into a single specialization. Given that we are a pure DPS class, I think it makes sense that each of our specs should be designed around being the best for that class in that area (ST/Cleave/AOE). Yet instead we get three specs of very varying abilities and damage ranges.

[Slybak]

Passive Shard generation basically serves as a throttle on CB / RoF spam. The problem isn't that this system doesn't work from a numbers standpoint (it largely does, though it might need further throttling as the expansion progressives and higher amounts of secondary stats and new set bonuses are introduced), the problem is that it basically removes resource generation from the player's control. You're letting the game do it for you, and that's not fun for a lot of people.

There are only two ways to re-introduce active resource generation. The first is to bring back the Burning Ember system; increase the granularity of Soul Shards so that you're actively generating Shards but at a rate equivalent to the current passive generation rate. That's probably harder than most people realize, since Destro's core AoE rotation was changed to RoF instead of the old Fire and Brimstone ability. They'd also have to change the Feretory legendary and the Nighthold set bonus to accommodate this system, and a bunch of people already have the former.

The other alternative is to introduce variable cost scaling to CB and RoF. In other words, instead of CB and RoF having fixed Shard costs of 2 and 3 respectively, CB and RoF will consume all available Shards and vary in damage based on the number of Shards consumed. Basically, turning Destro into a "ranged Rogue/Feral" spec, where Shards function exactly like Combo Points; Incinerate becomes an analog of CP builders like Mutilate and Saber Slash, and CB / RoF become analogs of "finishing moves" like Rupture and Run Through.

The first option is likely preferably from a development standpoint because it would take less time to re-tune CB and RoF, and is likely preferable from a gameplay standpoint because it preserves a lot of the uniqueness of Destro's playstyle. Still, the second offers something to think about at least in terms of the system's existing constraints.

[Deleted]

Voted no for this.

Problem with Embers baseline on the other was that you could spend ridiculous time spamming filler.

And other reasons :

-Currently swimming in shards on anything that isn't ST.

-Most likely a nerf to eradication / Or tuning could be bad because of risk of being OP in pvp.

-If the cost of CB stay at 2 shards, we can only pool enough to cast 2 CB anyway.

-Embers/embers bit worked great when trinkets were mostly int/mastery/crit procs and when we had Dark soul because we could keep our CBs for procs.

-Not much reason to pool them now. (except for eradication/priority target) and we can do that with shards too.



I'd rather they improve the mastery RNG instead of the ressources RNG.

The other alternative is to introduce variable cost scaling to CB and RoF. In other words, instead of CB and RoF having fixed Shard costs of 2 and 3 respectively, CB and RoF will consume all available Shards and vary in damage based on the number of Shards consumed. Basically, turning Destro into a "ranged Rogue/Feral" spec, where Shards function exactly like Combo Points; Incinerate becomes an analog of CP builders like Mutilate and Saber Slash, and CB / RoF become analogs of "finishing moves" like Rupture and Run Through.

We already have that, it's called demonology warlock.

[Baconeggcheese]

Yes it is higher now, therefor cb as a spender does less dmg. I really liked the hard hitting Cb and so the old ratio between spending time on generator/spender.

This change doesn't mean they'll increase CB dmg, that is an entirely separate issue that you'd need to express to them. They can and very likely will keep the shard generation roughly the same, and just change the method in which we get them.

Do you remember charred remains? You were shooting off chaosbolts more frequently than you do now, yet it ran on embers.