Pitt Bulls Violent by Genetics or by Upbringing?

[Beet]

I would research the bolded. Pitbulls cannot lock their jaw. They have very strong muscles, but there is no locking.

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This guy gets it!

Due to artificial selection for the purposes of dogfighting, pit bulls developed a killer bite. Unlike other dog breeds, pit bulls “hold and shake” their victims. Unless a crow bar or break stick is used to pry open a pit bull’s jaws, shooting the dog may be the only way to get the animal to release. Though the pit bull’s jaws may not “structurally” lock, they do not release naturally

That's just one quote from a source regarding Pit Bulls. And that's a pro Pit Bull website too. So perhaps I used the term lockjaw incorrectly but they don't bite like regular dogs.

[Dug]

As far as I know, yes, certain breeds tend to be more aggressive than others naturally however the training you give them as pups will be the deciding factor on how they are in their adult lives. I've met lots of pitbulls that are complete sweet hearts and I've never seen them hurt a fly. But if you don't give them any training or purposely train them to be aggressive then yeah they're going to be quite nasty.

Take my mothers chihuahua for example. Now I despise the breed with a passion mostly because I haven't met a single one that wasn't an aggressive shit. But being small dogs you can take a safe bet that most owners don't nip their bad habits because oh he's so small and cute, he won't hurt anything. So by the time they've grown the bad habits are so ingrained that it's practically impossible to train them otherwise. So mostly it's not the breed I don't like but the stereotypical owners of them that refuse to train them because they're so small.

[Youn]

I own a Pitbull/Boxer/Great Dane mix. That technically was classified as a dangerous animal by the humane society when we adopted her. She was a dopey 105lb dog. That someone gave the leash to a 35lb 7year old girl. The girl was dragged to the ground and her arm broken because she couldn't keep the 1 year old dog from bounding toward something that excited her.

She is probably the most gentle dog I have owned, but every now and then she will get into a fight with our 18 year old female border coley, that is getting senile and thinks she is still in charge of everything. That is the nature of dogs, in general. They live by a pack order. You have to be careful when these two fight as you basically need to splash them with water and beat them with a stick to get them apart. I serously, wouldn't advise anyone to get between a 105lb dog and 55lb dog while fighting.

But, I wouldn't say she is any worse then the other 3 dogs we own.

Note: I have also owned a 185lb Pitbull/Boxer/St Bernard/Black lab mix. He was also very good with humans in general.

[ImpTaimer]

Pit bulls being nanny dogs was an urban myth to get people to adopt and buy the surplus of pitbulls that breeders deems unworthy of fighting.

Any dog can be domesticated. You can't fight genetics though. Pitbulls were made to be fighting dogs. They are not a natural breed. They did not occur naturally. They were forced into existence by breeders to fight.

Even current pitbulls are mutts compared to the original creation due to over-breeding and inter-breeding. Pitbulls "ruin litters" when they breed with other dogs.

Pitbulls were not used as babysitters. They were used as cheap guard dogs. You can train a pitbull back into fighting behavior in a day, as they were domesticated to be "switched on".

Even as far back as nursery rhymes pitbulls have been vilified.

The market has been oversaturated with pitbulls for a century.

[Saucexorzski]

The little dogs bite far more often then big dogs.

[Rampant Rabbit]

I personally think that pitt bulls simply have violent genetics in them due to selective breeding, and no amount of care and proper upbringing is going to change genetics no matter how much people want it to.

Many people confuse these 'violent genetics' with their affectionate and protective nature.

Also, the biggest influence on their behavior of ANY dog is always the person that raises the it.

[Sam the Wiser]

OP opinion is just wrong and this is over 7 pages...Well are on MMO-C after all.

[Runenwächter]

1) pits are like people with guns. there are good natured ones and bad natured ones. but unlike bad natured people without a gun bad natured people with a gun have an exponentially higher killing potential.

2) strength and aggressiveness in interspecies conflicts corelate. if in the immediate confrontation combining ones strength with aggressiveness is considered the advantagous reaction, both people and animals react aggressively. culturaly imposed repercussions always come secondary.

[Beet]

Physically they are very dangerous dogs, absolutely true.



A lot of this comes down to training. If you train your dog right from the getgo, it won't do this. If it isn't, an infant/child can irritate and annoy the dog until it snaps. That's just reality. It's a living animal, it's not a toy.

We trained our Shibas carefully for the first year to never, ever bite no matter how stressed they are. We've been complimented many times by vets at how comfortable they are putting their hands/faces near our dogs' mouths because Shibas also have a reputation for biting and attacking people who get too close (though not nearly as much as a pit). I keep saying it comes down to training because it does.

I hear about training all the time. But do you really believe that every Pit Bull out there that attacked or killed someone was simply trained to be violent? Or what of the people who had their Pits since they were born and raised them right yet they still attacked a family member one day? I'm not saying that you can't train them by the way. You certainly can. And some Pits are lovable amazing animals. But there is still that capability to kill in them. When over half of the viscious dog attacks are by Pits which only make up 6% of the dog population then there is a problem. I refuse to believe that every one of those attacks was due to owners training them to be violent.

And you sound like a great owner. Sadly not enough are. Too many people get Pits and can't handle them. Ever since the Michael Vick shit there has been a gigantic increase of people buying them too which is something I've found interesting.

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The little dogs bite far more often then big dogs.

Yup and how often do those little dog bites kill versus big dogs?

[Stacyrect]

I think there's a couple of things regarding the genetics vs. environment argument:

1. Genetic predisposition is no guarantee of expression, genes are complex and it is wholly possible, as you said, to have a very sweet, calm, loving dog be in the same litter/genetic tree as one that displays inherently aggressive tendencies.
2. It is folly to deny that genetics has a role in behavior (for any species), although there is a lot of room for argument as to what % of a given animal's behavior is due to genetics and what % is due to environment. It is not an easy argument to resolve as environmental cues influence gene expression.

I think part of the reason why people argue against genetics so vigorously is because they want to believe that training can give 100% control over an animal, and that by introducing genetics into the conversation they perceive that it takes the onus of responsibility away from the owner in regards to an animal's behavior. I think we can state that genetics are a factor while also stating that owners have a responsibility to treat their animals well and train them properly.

I have a friend who is a vet who had the same experience with her staffordshire terrier, she's had to hire several animal behaviorists and she still has to put the dog up when company comes over. She's a very sweet woman who I've known since middle school and has owned a lot of pets (the rest of whom did not have behavior problems), and I am well aware of her love of animals, so while it is possible that her dog's behavior is due to poor ownership/training I very highly doubt it. Especially when accounting for the amount of time and money she has put into training.

I agree. However, I could look at my friends dog and imagine what that dog would be like if he didn't have such a caring owner. It would be a bad scenario. Even with genetic pre-dispositions, I'm a firm believer in environment is the part we should focus on, because it is really the only thing even remotely in our control. Thats why I support registrations/restrictions not just for pits but for pets in general.

[Machismo]

I don't think the OP understands the difference between having violent tendencies, and being good at violence. Pit Bulls (for whatever that actually means) are not inherently more violent than other dogs, and are actually far less violent than many smaller breeds. However, they are far more dangerous due to the severity of the damage they are capable of inflicting.

To put it into human turns; some people get into fist fights all the time. They are better fighters than most other people, but are far less dangerous than someone who chooses to avoid violence, yet when he does use violence, he uses a gun.

[shrunken]

This is another example of you placing your opinion over fact.

Pits and related breeds are not inherently more violent due to genetics. The issue is a combination of: people breeding them for fighting/defense, people not understanding that despite their peaceful nature, they are powerful dogs that can kill, and three, morons who think saying hi to a dog is thrusting their hand in its face.

None of that is genetic and all of that is social.

Not that I have a particular problem with any dog breed so long as the owner is knowledgeable and physically able to restrain the animal when it's on a leash, but to your third point I would simply say it's fairly disingenuous to pretend that people haven't been critically and fatally mauled by loose pitbulls when they were guilty of nothing more than being outside. It's disrespectful.

Anyway, the most dangerous thing about pitbulls is their owners. Not just the people who treat the dogs poorly and make them violent, but the 110lbs girls I see walking a dog that could take off on them & who they could never hope to stop or control if the dog forgot its best behavior for a moment.

[Saucexorzski]

I hear about training all the time. But do you really believe that every Pit Bull out there that attacked or killed someone was simply trained to be violent? Or what of the people who had their Pits since they were born and raised them right yet they still attacked a family member one day? I'm not saying that you can't train them by the way. You certainly can. And some Pits are lovable amazing animals. But there is still that capability to kill in them. When over half of the viscious dog attacks are by Pits which only make up 6% of the dog population then there is a problem. I refuse to believe that every one of those attacks was due to owners training them to be violent.

And you sound like a great owner. Sadly not enough are. Too many people get Pits and can't handle them. Ever since the Michael Vick shit there has been a gigantic increase of people buying them too which is something I've found interesting.

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Yup and how often do those little dog bites kill versus big dogs?

Not often enough!

[Beet]

Wish I could insert that too damn high meme here because the amount of anecdotal evidence in this thread is by far too damn high. It sure is amazing how so many people here raised Pits themselves. You'd think the population of Pits would be higher than 6% since practically 1 in 4 people here seem to have raised one. Some people could give ronnyjohnson618 a run for his money.

[petej0]

So much BS anecdotal evidence in this thread. My brother <insert why pittbulls are nice here> my friend and his family <insert why pittbulls are nice here>. Here are the statistics. [url]http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2015.php

Pit Bull is a generic term for a class of dog. Its like the term Muscle Cars describes a class of car. The medias lack of recognition of dog breeds also feeds into the bad reputation, listing dog attacks as pitbull when the type isnt exactly known.

[Cyi]

My best friend, who's sister I eventually married, parents had a pit bull when we were all kids and it was fine. While I agree that upbringing is the main factor in their behavior, I do believe they have the least room for error, perhaps a short fuse is a good way of saying it. I would never own one as I don't see the upside vs the risk. There are other, equally good guard/family dogs that have a much better temper and easier to raise correctly.

[Youn]

We have four dogs. An 18 year old female border coley, a 11 year old female basenji, a 9 year old male basenji, and a 3 year old Pitbull/Boxer/Great Dane mix.
Of those dogs:

The female border coley is prone to fights with any other dog she runs into.
The female basenji suffers from farconies disease and permanent upper respiratory damage.
The male basenji is prone to bite and break skin on anyone who hovers in a doorway, that he doesn't live with. This is a serious issue as friends sometimes come over, open the door, then don't immediately enter because there is 4 dogs trying to greet them. We have to tell them to come in or get bitten.
The female pitbull is the only dog we would safely take to a dog park and associate with dogs outside of her pack. She can also be taken over to other peoples house and will play with their dogs without fear of her getting into a fight.

[petej0]

So much BS anecdotal evidence in this thread. My brother <insert why pittbulls are nice here> my friend and his family <insert why pittbulls are nice here>. Here are the statistics. [url]http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2015.php

Pit Bull is a generic term for a class of dog. Its like the term Muscle Cars describes a class of car. The medias lack of recognition of dog breeds also feeds into the bad reputation, listing dog attacks as pitbull when the type isnt exactly known.


American Bull Dog


American Staffordshire Terrier


Staffordshire Bull Terrier

[nanook12]

Engineers: Race cars are built to be race cars.

People in thread: But if you care for the race car and bring it up properly it can become a good family car.

Engineers: No, it is still a race car. That is what is was built to be.

People in thread: No, you just treated you race car badly.

Engineers: You caring about it is in no way going to change the design of the car.

People in thread: Emotion and bringing your race car up properly matter more. Go somewhere else with your silly logic, science, and statistics! We will get by with our feelings.

Engineers: Good luck with that.

[Celista]

You do make a good point. This is a level of fear, even that I recognize in myself, when people bring up genetics when it comes to dogs.

I think it's an understandable concern. While there are a lot of responsible and caring dog owners, there are also a lot of dog owners that are not quite so responsible. I think that most dog owners mean well, but many people underestimate the time and effort inherent in raising and training dogs. Dog owners may not realize how they are inadvertently contributing to a dog's problematic behaviors, whether by not giving them enough attention or walking them enough or by not correcting behavior in an appropriate way.

I have a Golden Retriever from hunting lines, she is 4 now and is highly active. She needs on average 2-4 miles of walking a day (closer to the 4 miles range), plus regular dog park visits. People think that is a lot of walking for a dog, but they do not understand the transformative affect of exercise on her behavior. They see how calm and well-behaved she is and think she just happens to be that way. But if she doesn't get her walks, that energy gets stored up and it starts negatively affecting her behavior.

Environmental factors/training can absolutely transform the behavior of a dog, and in my opinion that is where the conversation about a particular dog's behavior should start. As long as we leave the door open to the idea that some dog owners have a more challenging time than others in regards to dog training, due to a dog's innate temperament.