Does it feel like the player skill level is dropping drastically?

[Deleted]

You got that backwards; people have only been laughing and throwing rotten tomatoes at Blizzard, or any gaming-company since their games start moving away from the initial vision the players invested themselves into.

I doubt encounter design isn't one of the major reasons for that.

Your reply is therefore moot

Whatever floats you boat, mate.
I for one dislike these archaic designs you seem to be championing.

haha this is getting juvenile

Well, now you know how to find out how many formatting options the forum supports, should you ever be interested.

[Akka]

of course, what im saying, this has to do with gaming generations and technology at your reach.
if he has 40, when he was child, it may be a pro in tetris, but is obvius that moving from fire would be hard.
For a child now that has tons of 3d explosiveness on his monitor, they get used at fast things coming in and that stuff.

/facepalm

Seriously ?
You think we were mouthbreathers in games just because we didn't had iPhone then ?

- - - Updated - - -

Word.

Even so, people forgets something. Im a grown ass person, but back than, I was a teenager still in puberty. My needs(just like other people)was/is different now and if you don't reliaze that, you end up with bronies(you just have to stay within your own community in that case and stop talking about good old days).

=>
Maybe you were a 11-years old boy at the time and were unable to coordinate your fingers and have fuzzy memories, but as surprising as it might be for you, some other people were actually functionnal adults at the time

You're the one forgetting something, and it's that you're not the world's template for a WoW player.

[ohlins]

Heroic Shadow Labyrinth would like a word with you. Normally Heroic Shattered Halls does the talking but it's preoccupied making warriors cry.

Botanica shits on your shadowlabs.

[Uriel]

Ultimately there re several reasons the players became worse than before:

Crossrealm groups: Back when the community was one server it didn't take much time to recognize the bad players. Remembering their name, their guild or putting them on ignore mostly fixed that for you. On most servers the most stupid players were well known and avoided.

Now however there are countless realms in your realmpool. Way too many players to remember or to ignore them all. And there are no famous names floating around..now its more like Servers, but even on servers with a high Dumpass population there are also some good players. Judging them all by server makes it difficult. The opposite is also true were neutral servers have black sheep. The anonymity allows players to get by unpunished. They don't care if they lose respect on some realm when their are countless others to be grouped with.

The dedication:
Back in the days you had to Repgrind, or farm Mats or make attunment quests for days/weeks months. Stuff did take a while. The players who did all this had some dedictation to the game and some patience. Those older Players learned to relax and to take it slow, so it doesn't bother them as much when someone caused a wipe or someone went AFK before a M;ythic+. Nowadays there is little investment needed. Sure there are Reps and Mats to farm, but it got significantly easier than killing a certain group of Fulborgs for hours. Players got their rewards almost instantly with less effort, thus becoming more impatient and aggressiv.

[Tierbook]

I remember back in Wrath not being a part of a guild and pugging may to the having the 5th highest gear score among warriors on my realm. I suppose that's no longer possible.

[Deleted]

/facepalm

Seriously ?
You think we were mouthbreathers in games just because we didn't had iPhone then ?

- - - Updated - - -


=>
Maybe you were a 11-years old boy at the time and were unable to coordinate your fingers and have fuzzy memories, but as surprising as it might be for you, some other people were actually functionnal adults at the time

You're the one forgetting something, and it's that you're not the world's template for a WoW player.

You're the one forgetting something, and it's that you're not the world's template for a WoW player.

TBC you love so much is a decade behind. You either adept yourself as person to this new world or just move on.

[shonist]

/facepalm

Seriously ?
You think we were mouthbreathers in games just because we didn't had iPhone then ?

- - - Updated - - -


=>
Maybe you were a 11-years old boy at the time and were unable to coordinate your fingers and have fuzzy memories, but as surprising as it might be for you, some other people were actually functionnal adults at the time

You're the one forgetting something, and it's that you're not the world's template for a WoW player.

Yeah, i really think you were mouthbreathers in games because you didnt had iPhone then. and there is nothing bad about it. we all are getting old no matter what.

[caervek]

I remember back in Wrath not being a part of a guild and pugging may to the having the 5th highest gear score among warriors on my realm. I suppose that's no longer possible.

Actually it's even more possible because if RNG favours you then you can get better gear from world quests than from mythic raiding lol.

[pmkaboo]

player skill level is dropping in a game designed for bads... how shocking.

[Anthony3187]

Not as much "bad design" as it was "lacking design", really.
TBC tactics were much simpler than what we have now; most of the time not exceeding 2 abilities per boss.

People loved it cause it was the most one could get in terms of encounter-design. At that time it was "state of the art"...
Try packing that kind of design into a game in 2016... you will be laughted at and burned for it.

It doesn't matter if most TBC dungeon bosses only had 3-4 abilities. If you didn't follow the mechanics of the boss then you wiped, simple as that.

Some raid bosses have like 20 different abilities when you figure in all the adds/etc, but if 90% of those abilities don't really matter then what's the point?

It's all about tuning. I'd rather have unforgiving encounters with only 4-7 boss abilities than super complex boss encounters where you cheese most of the mechanics and just heal through it.

Tank classes are definitely easier to play today than they were in TBC. It was an art back then to aoe tank decently as a protection warrior. Not to mention you could get insta-gibbed on raid bosses if they got some "Crushing Blows" in on you (this mechanic no longer exists today on raid bosses).

[Tatsujin]

You just can't pug anything anymore. I feel like I HAVE to stay inside my circle of friends in order to have fun with the game. I loved pugging m+ and meeting new people but its just getting to the point every pugged M+ is a shit show. Mainly the inconsistencies in DPS. Now I know some DPS aren't that great in M+ but i'm seeing 875+ DPS with legendarys on a regular basis not even able to do break 300k on bosses or even 300k AoE...And i've done plenty of pug groups 8/10 times its just a shit fest....

Now I may be guilty of this being a 7/7M 2/3M player myself but these carry groups are just destroying the game. 75k full H EN clear in 1hr. +10/+12, nightbane..You name it...Everyone is getting carried and don't need to know what the hell they are doing and since they are so used to getting carried they don't need to understand what they are doing! Perfect example...Go to the dungeon finder and find a group for dungeons. Search "Carry"...The amount of players that just want to get carried is sad and this isn't 850 alts these are 875+ players that just want to get carried at everything they do despite having the gear and capability to not be i guess "bad" and something that needs to be carried.

What are you guys experience with pugs nowadays?

You wanna know what the best part is? .... I get declined relentlessly 9 times out of 10 because I'm not 880 or I'm not Fury. I'm an FR Arms dressed in ilvl 878/879 (depends on trinkets) with Execute ring and WW belt (though the belt isn't as good as the pants for AoE). Here's the other best part, I clock in on trash with sustained between 600K to 900K and on bosses I'm sustained minimum is at 450k-550k and my average is 550K to 730K single target, my peak goes above 750K to whatever but that's with above average RNG, and this is with long fights on 9s and 10s.

One leader said "I need more clothes" and I laughed. The only person that amazed me was a 891 Arcane mage who was sustaining 800k+ on single target and he was really well gear with lots of lucky upgrades with more sockets than average.

When I go inside those Mythics, like the one I was in yesterday for a 9+, I'm usually doing double the damage of the other people by the end of the fight on bosses. Well ... I need to get back to work. I'm going to build my Fury set in 7.2, right now I'm focusing on getting 54 traits unlocked, I'm 37. Almost there!

[Akka]

You're the one forgetting something, and it's that you're not the world's template for a WoW player.

TBC you love so much is a decade behind. You either adept yourself as person to this new world or just move on.

This is a game, not natural selection, there is no inherent value in newer design over older ones. And repeating description like a sheep in the hope they'll stick back is just puerile.

Yeah, i really think you were mouthbreathers in games because you didnt had iPhone then. and there is nothing bad about it. we all are getting old no matter what.

I seriously hope you're either trolling or no older than 14.

[OrcsRLame]

It doesn't matter if most TBC dungeon bosses only had 3-4 abilities. If you didn't follow the mechanics of the boss then you wiped, simple as that.

Some raid bosses have like 20 different abilities when you figure in all the adds/etc, but if 90% of those abilities don't really matter then what's the point?

It's all about tuning. I'd rather have unforgiving encounters with only 4-7 boss abilities than super complex boss encounters where you cheese most of the mechanics and just heal through it.

Tank classes are definitely easier to play today than they were in TBC. It was an art back then to aoe tank decently as a protection warrior. Not to mention you could get insta-gibbed on raid bosses if they got some "Crushing Blows" in on you (this mechanic no longer exists today on raid bosses).

This is utter horse shit. Tanks today are massively harder to play. Focus has simply shifted from maintaining threat to not dying. I doubt you've actually tanked anything hard in Legion, where a single unmitigated auto can easily be a wipe.

[ro9ue]

I don't think skill has been dropping at all. Been playing since release, you run into some good players and some bad. Sometimes it's not even "skill" that makes people bad, it's them just not paying attention or giving a fuck. Which is fine, it's a game, but when you're running with other players you should be aware it's a shared gaming experience.


The biggest problem the game faces in my opinion, is that skill actually matters less. We have class design now where only a few specs really have the intricacies that can contribute to exhibiting skill. Most specs are essentially faceroll, and a few rotational fuck ups isn't going to matter to your performance.

Enhancement Shaman is an example of a well designed spec. On it's base, you can take a lot of passive talents and do good dps. However if you take 2 active talents, which are 2 more abilities to juggle, you can improved your dps. That should be the model going forward. If you just want a relaxing gaming experience, you can take a lot of passives, but expect to do only say 80% of the dps of someone who takes all of the extra complexity.

[Akka]

It doesn't matter if most TBC dungeon bosses only had 3-4 abilities. If you didn't follow the mechanics of the boss then you wiped, simple as that.

Some raid bosses have like 20 different abilities when you figure in all the adds/etc, but if 90% of those abilities don't really matter then what's the point?

It's all about tuning. I'd rather have unforgiving encounters with only 4-7 boss abilities than super complex boss encounters where you cheese most of the mechanics and just heal through it.

Tank classes are definitely easier to play today than they were in TBC. It was an art back then to aoe tank decently as a protection warrior. Not to mention you could get insta-gibbed on raid bosses if they got some "Crushing Blows" in on you (this mechanic no longer exists today on raid bosses).

Agree on everything here.

[Shibito]

Heroic Shadow Labyrinth would like a word with you. Normally Heroic Shattered Halls does the talking but it's preoccupied making warriors cry.

Shattered halls wasnt hard as a warrior at all, just needed to be good heroic shadow labirynt wasnt hard either just needed non idiots.

[Anthony3187]

This is utter horse shit. Tanks today are massively harder to play. Focus has simply shifted from maintaining threat to not dying. I doubt you've actually tanked anything hard in Legion, where a single unmitigated auto can easily be a wipe.

I don't buy that tanks are harder to play in Legion. I've tanked most of the heroic raid bosses as well as Mythic+9 so far. Yes you definitely have to manage your cooldowns to mitigate the bigger boss abilities, but you aren't playing the threat metagame the entire time as well.. not to mention in TBC if shield block was not up nearly 100% of the time you got insta-gibbed with a crushing blow (only raid bosses ?? level would crush you, not the 5 man ones). Trust me, that was more stressful back then. Also everything was immune to taunt, and for a long time mobs that were tauntable only had an 8 yard taunt range fyi.

There are so so many more abilities I have on my prot warrior to play with that I simply did not have before Wrath of the Lich King.

[Jastall]

The only difference is that we outgear content faster today. TBC, for instance, had a very slow gear curve, from normal dungeons to Heroics (where most players stopped), to increasingly hard raids up to and including a terribly tuned boss that no one downed before the release of the next raid. Nowadays, most players can gear up with WQs, Heroics, Mythics once they are relatively geared up, as well as LFR and some bits of Normal raiding here and there. The game doesn't start being hard until Heroic+ raiding (which also gets outgeared) and higher M+.

What's that? Mythic dungeons are easy? Do them at intended ilvl; 820 or so. Not that easy at all then. I remember having to ask a rogue to CC stuff in HoV since those trash packs just murdered my group in the game's launch week. Of course when you have a group that outgears it with 20+ ilvls and knows the instance by heart, it's going to be freaking easy.

TBC heroics were harder than M+10? Say fucking what? Have you guys even tried to tank a Teeming, Necrotic, Fortified M+? TBC ain't got nothing of that sort, apart from the fact class design was so borked up only Prot Pallies had AoE threat generation, and everyone else just stack their groups with CC because otherwise the tank mostly stands there helpless trying to get threat on everything as mobs run around making sausages with the healer's intestines. Such skill, much complexity. And even then, it mostly only mattered for the harder ones like SH or Shadow Labs past the first nerf wave.

The difference is that the game today is as easy or hard as you want it to be. Flexible difficulty is a good thing, it gives something for everyone to do. Lesser skilled players can do easier content, hardcores do high M+ and Mythic raids, instead of everyone being tossed in Heroic dungeons and only the skilled players progressing forward, while the rest remain stuck there.

People can posture as much as they want. The ratio of bad vs good player isn't any different. The bad ones just happen to actually have gearing options today. Oh, the horror! The humanity!

[Puri]

This is utter horse shit. Tanks today are massively harder to play. Focus has simply shifted from maintaining threat to not dying. I doubt you've actually tanked anything hard in Legion, where a single unmitigated auto can easily be a wipe.

No, it's not. I'm not even doubting what you say, although it obviously comes as exaggeration. But you have to look at both ends of the spectrum.
I could probably tank a heroic, mythic even depending on the group, by binding thunder clap to my mousewheel and press nothing else. Ok, thunder clap might not be enough if you have strong DDs to keep aggro 100%, but it would work with druid's swipe.
This would not have been possible in the closest during TBC (before they reworked aggro generation in the wotlk prepatch). No group could have carried you when you tried to play a one button tank, the mobs would have just run directly to the healer and then the DDs.

So the spectrum of what it was to play a tank changed, and now it ranges from "I can press buttons" to your "I have to mitigate every auto attack", while in TBC it ranged from "I know what to do" to "I know what to do perfectly".

[Anthony3187]

Shattered halls wasnt hard as a warrior at all, just needed to be good heroic shadow labirynt wasnt hard either just needed non idiots.

Heroic Black Morass/Durnholde/Arcatraz were insane before the heroics all got a nerf midway through the expansion. Then they got fairly easy once Isle of Quel'Danas came out and people got decently geared from that.