Legion Appreciate Thread

[Matthias]

So much negativity on these forums. Some from myself included, I think we still need to show some love on how good an expansion Legion is overall despite it's problems.

I made a threading during WoD that discussed how I believed the dramatic changes WoTLK bought to the game overall crippled the game in the long run for many reasons. Or how Blizzard shot themselves in the foot. As I called it.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...es+in+the+foot

Funny thing is I feel Legion addressed nearly every problem listed in one regard or another. Far from perfect it's the best expansion we've gotten so far since WoTLK.

Dungeons and Difficulty

Dungeons and Difficulty (Most Important IMO)

A big problem in the game right now is how 5 man content is pretty much pointless. Yes back in WoTLK we continued doing dungeons in order to acquire our badges (Which I still think is the best system). But they were simply far too easy, even in blue gear the only wall people would ever hit was on Loken. Blizzard stated they wanted Heroics to take about an hour, they ended up taking about 15-20 minutes. Part of the homogenization process that started in WoTLK started giving classes an answer for everything. All tanks could now AoE tank and all DPS could AoE. That's fine but just because a tank can AoE tank doesn't mean he should be able to. In TBC if a Paladin tried to AoE tank a 6 pack in Heroic Shattered Halls he was going to die simply because the of the raw damage output mobs put out with just white damage. They would have to be geared like hell in order to pull that off.

Not only that but for DPS threat was no longer an issue, Blizzard decided that it wasn't fun for DPS to not be able to unload on a target. However I always found that it more exciting as a DPS that your well being was in danger, I mean back in TBC if you pulled aggro chances are you were a dead man. Also by that regard DPS classes were more valued for their resourcefulness in a dungeon, a Rogue that could stun lock a target to reduce damage on the tank, or to simply off-tank, a hunter that could kite a mob to draw the aggro away from his healer until the tank could pick it back up (Taunt had a low range back then...very low). Or simply having the common sense to re-apply your CC. Funny thing also is in WoTLK they gave just about every class a CC so that poor Enhancement Sham would no longer be passed over for a mage, but they never needed to use it in Heroics.

These days if there ever is a wipe in a 5 man the first thing people do is look at damage, and see who is pew pewing the least, "thinking regardless of why we wiped the boss/mobs should have been dead already." A natural problem though with threat is if your tank sucked at generating threat you were in for a rough time, since I was a tank and normally wouldn't have that problem it wasn't such a big deal so I'm kind of bias. But WoTLK Heroics could have been tuned to what CMs are now give or take.

Mythic+ Addressed the problem of dungeons being either being irrelevent or just too damn easy. You can keep doing keystones levels until you hit the level of difficulty that is too challenging for your group. If I'm ever bold enough to pug a 10+ or higher it's not a guartunee that I'm going to clear it just because I show up. It is still kind of just a DPS aoe fest, but different affixes do change up weekly game play and how you'd like to approach scenarios. Oh and Karazhan is awesome!

Potential Problems that could be addressed - M+ having no lock out is nice since I can always get friends to help out. However it does create a rich getting richer scenario. I don't think the extra AP grinders get is a big deal, but the additional shots at Titanforge loot that competes with Mythic Raid gear makes raiders that don't have as much time fall behind. More importantly ilvl inflation is out of control, I think we're damn near at end expansion levels of power with how strong we can get before the first tier is even done, it's a lingering problem Blizz has yet to address. It's very frustrating when you out gear your party and they can't keep up and even more so vice versa

Profession Streamlining and the Economy

Profession Streamlining and the Economy

I don't see people mention this at all, many talk about how gathering professions were ruined in WoD which is true, but I largely feel crafting was far too streamlined in WoTLK when I felt they were at a nearly perfect point in TBC. The initial crafted epics throughout the expansion were just so damn easy to craft only requiring a few bars of Saronite and Titansteel and Frozen Orbs. This in my opinion not only made the pre-raid gearing process to easy, but more importantly made making gold too damn easy. Bare in mind to this day I have always sucked at making gold but starting in WoTLK I just always had enough to get by and then easily flip the gold I have on the AH by crafting things. When the next tier came out with new craftable gear I was just able to buy most of the mats of the AH no problem, then craft a few Titansteel Helms later to get back the gold I spent.

Now because of this I simply make enough gold to sustain myself by just sitting in the capital city. Previously since gold was harder to come by if I wanted to craft an epic I would normally have to go out and farm the mats. The weapons you crafted in TBC were costly in mats, but worth it because if you could upgrade them they would last you quite some time.

Now a huge point to this also is simple the value of gold. Many people didn't do dailies for rep in TBC they did them for the gold. We were out in the world in multiple daily hubs, farming the Elemental Plateau for Primals, gathering mats for a crafted item. There was reason to be all across Outland. In future expansions we're just pigeonholed into one zone on a given patch, Timeless Isle, Molten Front, Argent Tournament. And it seems this time it will be Tanaan Jungle in 6.2. We had reason to be not simply be on Isle of Quel'Danas back when it came out at the end of TBC.
Now I always hated the idea of farming up virtual money, but when you were doing it obtain an item it felt very good when you accomplished it. And reality is this is an MMO a virtual world where if you wanna live there you better bring home that paper.

Due to how easy it now was to come by gold, along with the LFD system, the game started to feel more like a Dungeon crawler then an MMO, you would only leave the capital to head to the raid normally. A big objective of Blizzard's was to fix this problem, and that lead to the disaster of the daily quest at the launch of MoP.

The new profession system initially gives you a lot to do to keep you busy. Also because there is a much higher demand for consumables for Mythic+ I actually find myself needing to go out into the world to farm gold or pots.

Problems that could be addressed - I'm sure Blizz will continue building on Professions, but right now some just feel far weaker then others

Leveling and World Content Difficulty

Leveling and World Content Difficulty (Edit: Forgot to mention this)

As I leveled through the 10 levels WoTLK something became rather apparent to me, I wasn't dying....on a Warrior, known as the hardest solo class. I'm sure it wasn't because of new toys like Bladestorm, or Victory Rush, the enemy mobs just weren't as dangerous, I could even take down elites. Dying while out in the world really only occurs when your doing something very reckless.

Back in Vanilla and TBC while you were questing you had to be wary about how you would approach a group of mobs, aggroing too many could mean death. If you ever group up with someone these days it's just to make things go quicker so they don't tag the mobs you need to kill. However before it was also about survival you were stronger with help simple.

Even at max level I would be tasked to take on some max level Elite mob in the world for a quest, if I couldn't find a group for it, or call my hunter buddy who was a skilled kiter :P.

Leveling and the world in general is so damn safe, Draenor is hardly savage. The rare elites in MoP though were an amazing addition, these guys could be solo'd but you had to know what you were doing and it was just simply better to have help. Not sure why they are so easy in WoD.

I'm not concerned with how quick it is to level, but I'm not sure how new players can be captivated by how simple the leveling process is.

The leveling experience in Legion I think is good enough to get new players interested in the game if they boost to 100. The fact that zones scale means that a new player leveling will see other players running around besides them doing World Quest. Speaking of which WQ are something that get you out and about in the world if there is a reward that's worth it. And there is always a chance of a Legendary from your Emissary Quest. Surumar city even at 880+ ilvl can be frustrating if your dealing with Elites and aren't a tank, so there is some danger back into the world. Lets not forget World Quest mobs that actually require a group to take down. Also once again I feel like farming is important again due to consumable demand for M+.

Potential Problems that could be addressed - WPvP is far more prevalent, but it's beyond imbalanced since there are no PvP stats are scaling. I liked how you were scaled for PvP combat in WoD if you entered WPvP. They really might need to add some form of base resilience

Attunements

Attunements???

Don't want to get to deep into this because it's not such a huge deal, but one can't deny that these kept you busy and tied down for quite sometime. Blizzard simply gates the first raid for a few weeks after launch so we don't consume the content too fast, but these kept you busy even after you were granted entry into Karazhan. I think attunements gave you time to learn how to play your class and simply gave you something to do when you weren't raiding. And chances are you were going to be doing these dungeons anyway. Mike Preach WoW has a great video discussing the pros and cons about attunements, I do think they were good they just needed to kinks worked out.

I think Blizzard was flat out sadistic when they designed Legion. We cried about a content drought in WoD so they almost gave us too much to do in Legion. They also knew damn well it was retarded to not make the Surumar attunements bind on account, but they knew it was something that would continue to keep players busy that were actually quick enough to finish one character rather early However I think attunements being something to work towards is just fine. They keep you busy and progress the story. They just need to be lifted at a suitable time.

Conclusion
So far I'm very happy with Legion, it has it's problems, every expansion does since it implements new systems that have yet to be tested. If they keep a consistent patch cycle I'll be happy.

State the things you love so far!

[jaber2]

I like legion even with all its faults, we know there are tons.

[dope_danny]

Is the game ever in a good period when these "everyone please say something nice about this period" posts show up? From the year of ICC onwards if people are enjoying the game they talk about it, if people need to try and brute force it thats usually a good barometer sign that somethings up, not the opposite.

[Matthias]

Is the game ever in a good period when these "everyone please say something nice about this period" posts show up? From the year of ICC onwards if people are enjoying the game they talk about it, if people need to try and brute force it thats usually a good barometer sign that somethings up, not the opposite.

Well at any period of the game people always cried about something.

[Ghrog]

I generally agree with the things you wrote. I'll add on to it though...

I am loving the lore and story so far. We finally have hit the point in the story where we actually feel like when were walking with Khadgar Thrall, Tyrande, etc that we are walking beside them as equals instead of errand boys and that "group of faceless heroes" The 4 horsemen now follow YOU; YOU are the leader of the Earthen Ring now, etc... Instead of just somebody running around looking for purps and occasinoally teaming up with other parts of the masses, YOU are the badass, Doomhammer weilding, faction leading, tip of the spear that drags 4 (and sometimes 16) of your allies along with you to put down these evil threats.

[Matthias]

I generally agree with the things you wrote. I'll add on to it though...

I am loving the lore and story so far. We finally have hit the point in the story where we actually feel like when were walking with Khadgar Thrall, Tyrande, etc that we are walking beside them as equals instead of errand boys and that "group of faceless heroes" The 4 horsemen now follow YOU; YOU are the leader of the Earthen Ring now, etc... Instead of just somebody running around looking for purps and occasinoally teaming up with other parts of the masses, YOU are the badass, Doomhammer weilding, faction leading, tip of the spear that drags 4 (and sometimes 16) of your allies along with you to put down these evil threats.

Lol it's actually something about the game I don't like. I hate being the "chosen one!" Simply because I know damn well I'm not since the guy next to me also is. In Vanilla you didn't feel special unless you actually accomplished something and it affected the World to a degree, such as Ony/Nef's head which provided a buff. Marshal Windsor sparking an event. WoTLK's Algalon event in Dalaran or putting the statue in Dalaran.

I have no problem with major characters like Thrall or Khadgar acknowledging me as "hero" or "champion" I mean we've killed the children of Deathwing, took down two Old Gods, put down the Firelord TWICE, repeled the Legion and Scourge numerous times, defeated Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing, Malygos, Garrosh, Archimonde (twice), Kil'jaeden. I mean hell our resume's are probably more impressive then most WC3 heroes. The point is though that we did these achievements in with a team, most of which required aide outside our raid from powerful lore characters.

Illidan - We had Akama and Maiev

Arthas - We had Tiron....oh and Arthas was sandbagging the entire time

Malygos - We had Alexstraza and the Red Dragonflight

Deathwing - we had Super Green Jesus Thrall and every other Aspect

Archimonde - We had Malfurion's wisp the first time and Garrosh, Khadgar, Yrel and Durotan the 2nd time.

Ragnaros - Wasn't at full power the first time and we had Malfurion the 2nd time. We took down Al'kkir ourselves though I think so kewl.

Garrosh - .....yeah Thrall got his ass kicked so we beat him ourselves so chea!

Kil'jaedan - We had Kalecgos and the Blue Dragonflight.

So yea I have no problem being acknowledged as a very reliable asset, but being the chosen one, where I command Thorim and Hodir ffs when I know every other warrior in my Class Hall also does kind of kills the immersion for me.

Those major lore characters are still raid bosses themselves and would wreck us 1v1.

[Ghrog]

LOL, well, different strokes for different folks I guess. ;-)

But yeah, instead of the singular chosen one, I feel like it's making us the uber-badass next generation taking over for the old lore characters. When my Shaman is in a party with other classes I think of it as The Farseer of the Earthen Ring is working with the Deathlord, leader of the Ebon Blade (etc...) to crush this opposition. When I'm in raids, from a class fantasy standpoint, I tend to think of the other shamen in the raid is my trusty allies (but they are not the Farseer in my mind) and the other classes are represented by the best and deadliest of those classes on Azeroth.

I still view the "Chosen-One" as Illidan... he can be the one with the destiny to save Azeroth while we lead our respective people, marshal the forces, and lead the charge as part of that collective against the Legion.

[Deleted]

I think players have become alot more critical of wow, which is a good thing. Which is also why we're noticing people saying "this is bad, this is bad, this needs to change"
Compared to before where blizzard were soley at the helm. I think it's a good thing.

[Matthias]

LOL, well, different strokes for different folks I guess. ;-)

But yeah, instead of the singular chosen one, I feel like it's making us the uber-badass next generation taking over for the old lore characters. When my Shaman is in a party with other classes I think of it as The Farseer of the Earthen Ring is working with the Deathlord, leader of the Ebon Blade (etc...) to crush this opposition. When I'm in raids, from a class fantasy standpoint, I tend to think of the other shamen in the raid is my trusty allies (but they are not the Farseer in my mind) and the other classes are represented by the best and deadliest of those classes on Azeroth.

I still view the "Chosen-One" as Illidan... he can be the one with the destiny to save Azeroth while we lead our respective people, marshal the forces, and lead the charge as part of that collective against the Legion.

I just find it odd how I can command Hymndal when I can't even 1v1 him. It must be his Heroic 5 man version .

[Nihilan]

The class hall campaigns imo are the best thing about Legion. For the first time since ever, i care so little about the current content that im actually starting to pay attention to the lore. But even the campaigns suffer from blizzard's artificially inflating thier duration with lame "go do 20 of these, go do 5 of these, go do 10 of these" time gates.

[Deleted]

we still need to show some love on how good an expansion Legion is overall despite it's problems.

Why do we need to do this? People who "love" it don't need our approval. And people who don't don't care about nonsense like this.

It's a game. Play it, move on. You won't hurt its feelings when you get bored with it.

[Matthias]

The class hall campaigns imo are the best thing about Legion. For the first time since ever, i care so little about the current content that im actually starting to pay attention to the lore. But even the campaigns suffer from blizzard's artificially inflating thier duration with lame "go do 20 of these, go do 5 of these, go do 10 of these" time gates.

The Warrior one was a freakin nightmare with how many Order Hall Quest I had to do, but they forgot to patch it. It wasn't supposed to be so long. Yea the Campaign was well designed making you do quest and then being able to do dungeons while waiting for your Order Hall Quest to finish.

I do think that for DPS though the 3rd Relic slot should already be unlocked, at least DPS wise. Make it so you don't get a trait until it's completed. It's such a DPS loss w/o it.

[TheFirstOnes]

I love legion. Sure, there are problems with it, but I love it WAY more than any other expansion.

Besides, never loved wraths BS anyway. Damn DKs and rets, I was maining a hunter back then. :/

[Matthias]

Why do we need to do this? People who "love" it don't need our approval. And people who don't don't care about nonsense like this.

It's a game. Play it, move on. You won't hurt its feelings when you get bored with it.

I'm showing some appreciation to the developers for once, since we constantly bash them.

[Darkguyver2020]

I'm showing some appreciation to the developers for once, since we constantly bash them.

The developers don't read the MMO-champion forums and I honestly don't blame them. You need to post on the official WoW forums if you want them to notice it.

[Relapses]

I appreciate Legion for giving me all of the reasons I finally needed to quit a game which has been a far too prominent fixture of my lifestyle for the past decade.

[Vineri]

I made a threading during WoD that discussed how I believed the dramatic changes WoTLK bought to the game overall crippled the game in the long run for many reasons...

It's an old thread. Old threads are old, there is no need to resurrect them 1.5 years later, simply because you authored it.

Write one catered to current events if you feel the topic is still relevant; don't link the entire old post, then say some things are still relevant (implying some are not). This thread is nonsense in it's current state.

Legion did help bring older communities together for Legacy Vanilla discussions. Thanks Legions! PS - thank you WoD also

[Matthias]

It's an old thread. Old threads are old, there is no need to resurrect them 1.5 years later, simply because you authored it.

Write one catered to current events if you feel the topic is still relevant; don't link the entire old post, then say some things are still relevant (implying some are not). This thread is nonsense in it's current state.

Legion did help bring older communities together for Legacy Vanilla discussions. Thanks Legions! PS - thank you WoD also

I'm simply responding that I believe Legion did a lot of things that the game currently had problems with.

[Deleted]

Hearing all these features and how people have fun doing them/playing the game but then realizing its not fun for yourself is the reason for negativity in most cases. It's just easy to figure if the game is for you or not.

[Dracullus]

I think in the future, when nostalgia will hit, Legion will be considered the best expansion. People tend to forget bad things and 'member only good. Zones and dungeons are really amazing. Emerald Nightmare was mediocre, but still we have 3 more raids that looks much more promising. And there is a high chance for Sargeras as last boss - even Lich King looks bad compared to that ;P.

For me, Legion need few more alt catch-up mechanic (personally I think that last 20 traits should be account wide - this is equivalent of paragon in Diablo, and this is account wide there; also some skins like Balance of Power or PVP should be easier to get on alts) and bug fixing (loading screen bug is killing me).