Nighthold is coming out in early 2017

[Frood]

If you're gonna ignore everything I said then don't waste my time. I have better things to do than try to make your simple mind understand what was written.

During WoD, most guilds hadn't finished Highmaul on Mythic difficulty before BRF came out. Blizzard has commented on this and stated that BRF did indeed come out too quickly. They took this feedback to heart and increased the time between raids for Legion, offering ToV as a consolation raid while Emerald Nightmare gets to continue until mid-January. An internal decision has been made by the game creators that this amount of time should be adequate to achieve Ahead of the Curve for Emerald Nightmare in particular. As you point out, this means they do in fact regard it as a "quasi-tier," but not by the classical definition. The only difference in Legion is time. The first tier remains to be the set of raid instances offering the first equipment tier set of the expansion: Nighthold and its predecessors, EM and ToV.

By this point I think it's pretty safe to say there will indeed be 3 tiers, with Argus constituting the final tier of the expansion. The only reason Blizzard hasn't commented on the number of raids recently is because they can't make promises yet on whether or not an additional spontaneous raid instance will be featured in the last patch (to combat content drought experienced during SoO and HFC tiers), much like ToV was for Tier 1 of Legion.

[TS26]

They mean nothing to you because you have no idea what a raid tier is, since you're basing it off of something that was added in Mists of Pandaria.

Using your definition there hasn't been a single raid tier prior to MoP.



No, it's you who have your own definition of a raid tier, based on ahead of the curve.



Again, that text has been changed in the current PTR, so going by the latest information by Blizzard, you can not use it as an argument. Funny how I'm "parroting all day" when you keep bringing up ahead of the curve as a basis for raid tiers, it's laughable really.



Doubtful but you're welcome to try.

Gonna finish this with 2 quotes DIRECTLY from Ion himself. Not you, nor I.

""Fatboss: Not everything can be spoken about, but with this one small raid that is coming out - how many raids overall are we going to get? Would you count the small raid as being a 'tier'?

Ion: It's subjective when you talk about tiers. We want to give a steady stream of good content and keep you busy with content in all areas. (They come back to this subject a bit later)""

Their definition of tier as hinted by ion is different to yours.




"Fatboss: With the 7.1 raid, will it be slotting in between Nightmare and Nighthold?

Ion: Yes that is correct. Nighthold we see as an early 2017 raid. We felt that Foundry in WOD came out too soon after Highmaul for many of the players. We wanted to put a bit more space in between the raid tiers, so to cover that time slot we wanted to add a small raid in between there."

he said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. He didn't say IN THE RAID TIER. He said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR.

This means they consider NH/EN to be MORE than one tier. Else he would say we wanted to put a bit more space in the raid TIER.


END OF.

[Saft]

Gonna finish this with 2 quotes DIRECTLY from Ion himself. Not you, nor I.

""Fatboss: Not everything can be spoken about, but with this one small raid that is coming out - how many raids overall are we going to get? Would you count the small raid as being a 'tier'?

Ion: It's subjective when you talk about tiers. We want to give a steady stream of good content and keep you busy with content in all areas. (They come back to this subject a bit later)""

Their definition of tier as hinted by ion is different to yours.




"Fatboss: With the 7.1 raid, will it be slotting in between Nightmare and Nighthold?

Ion: Yes that is correct. Nighthold we see as an early 2017 raid. We felt that Foundry in WOD came out too soon after Highmaul for many of the players. We wanted to put a bit more space in between the raid tiers, so to cover that time slot we wanted to add a small raid in between there."

he said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. He didn't say IN THE RAID TIER. He said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR.

Are you misunderstanding on purpose? He meant that for Nighthold and in the past Blackrock Foundry not to last for too long they have to release it later so the tier after that does not become a 12 month story. And the solution in question was Trials of Valor. The tiers he's talking about is 7.0 and 7.2. They have to purposely extend the 7.0 tier so tomb of sargeras does not last for a whole year or the tier after that lasts for maybe a year and a half.

[Frood]

He said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. He didn't say IN THE RAID TIER. He said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR.

This means they consider NH/EN to be MORE than one tier. Else he would say we wanted to put a bit more space in the raid TIER.

You're making the assumption that Ion and the rest of Blizzard is incapable of semantic error — that they're constantly addressing a list of protocols over what to say and what not to say. You're taking everything too literally. He meant between two raid instances, and if you insist on being so stubborn then please do so silently until we reach Argus and you finally realize you're wrong.

[Deleted]

Gonna finish this with 2 quotes DIRECTLY from Ion himself. Not you, nor I.

""Fatboss: Not everything can be spoken about, but with this one small raid that is coming out - how many raids overall are we going to get? Would you count the small raid as being a 'tier'?

Ion: It's subjective when you talk about tiers. We want to give a steady stream of good content and keep you busy with content in all areas. (They come back to this subject a bit later)""

Their definition of tier as hinted by ion is different to yours.




"Fatboss: With the 7.1 raid, will it be slotting in between Nightmare and Nighthold?

Ion: Yes that is correct. Nighthold we see as an early 2017 raid. We felt that Foundry in WOD came out too soon after Highmaul for many of the players. We wanted to put a bit more space in between the raid tiers, so to cover that time slot we wanted to add a small raid in between there."

he said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. He didn't say IN THE RAID TIER. He said BETWEEN RAID TIERS. PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR.

This means they consider NH/EN to be MORE than one tier. Else he would say we wanted to put a bit more space in the raid TIER.


END OF.

That's your argument which was supposed to settle things once and for all? You've been going on and on about Ahead of the Curve, and now you bring in this? Again, laughable.

That's an interview with Ion who recently became game director and has been known to make similar mistakes in the past, just as he called the Aspect of the Turtle ability Deterrence

[Laerrus]

Highmaul, Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor are not true raid tiers, but filler raids much like AQ 20/40, Zul'Aman and the Ruby Sanctum, hence why they do not drop tier pieces/sets.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_16 Tier 16 is the armor set associated with the Patch 5.4.0 and is obtained from the Siege of Orgrimmar.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_17 Tier 17 is the armor set associated with the Patch 6.0.2 and is obtained from Blackrock Foundry.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_18 Tier 18 is the armor set associated with the Patch 6.2.0 and is obtained from Hellfire Citadel
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tier_19 Tier 19 is the armor set associated with the Patch 7.1.0 and is obtained from The Nighthold.

Tomb of Sargeras will be Tier 20 and we will most likely be getting at least a new zone and the final raid (more than likely Tier 21) of the expansion when we go to Argus.

[TS26]

You're making the assumption that Ion and the rest of Blizzard is incapable of semantic error — that they're constantly addressing a list of protocols over what to say and what not to say. You're taking everything too literally. He meant between two raid instances, and if you insist on being so stubborn then please do so silently until we reach Argus and you finally realize you're wrong.

His words are very clear. THEIR definition of tier is different than the players'



"You're taking everything too literally. He meant between two raid instances, and if you insist on being so stubborn then please do so silently until we reach Argus and you finally realize you're wrong. "

Yeah I am taking his own "raid tiers" literally.


Man some people are weird. I'll come back to this once blizzard finally have a 7.2 raid and a very small mini 7.3 raid. Book marking this again

- - - Updated - - -

That's your argument which was supposed to settle things once and for all? You've been going on and on about Ahead of the Curve, and now you bring in this? Again, laughable.

That's an interview with Ion who recently became game director and has been known to make similar mistakes in the past, just as he called the Aspect of the Turtle ability Deterrence

Yeah that's your excuse? He made a mistake? lol.

This is what he, the main game director said. You wanna think he made a mistake go ahead. It doesn't change what he said.

Now stop wasting my time.

[Deleted]

So 7.1.5 is going to be on the 10th at the latest and possibly on the 3rd. They have said (as everyone shodl expect) they aren't going to drop a bunch of class changes "inthe middle of" a raid tier, and I would suggest they are even less likely to drop it at the start either with the Nighthold or just after it. If they were, 7.1.5 wouldn;t exist, it would all be 7.2

I suggest they will want at least one and preferably two weeks to settle in the class changes for Blizz and the players before taking them into the Nighthold raids. Some of the class changes are pretty heavy and you will want players to have time to adjust to them before going into a new raid with that sort of stuff.

My suspicion is th eoriginal plan was to drop 7.1.5 around now, but it's gotten held up; it could be done in the Christmas week but they don;t do releases in holiday periods.

[Saft]

Now stop wasting my time.

Gosh you're really aggressive.

[grexly75]

I think we all should just ignore TS26 as they are obviously trying to bait others into conflict with their overtly nonsensical and down right stupid posts.. Because no matter how many times that it has been proven to them they are one of those types who would say that the sky is green and the earth is flat no matter how much it is proven otherwise..

[Deleted]

Yeah that's your excuse? He made a mistake? lol.

This is what he, the main game director said. You wanna think he made a mistake go ahead. It doesn't change what he said.

Now stop wasting my time.

Much like you've wasted everyone else's time with your definition of raid tiers being based on Ahead of the Curve, which held no ground whatsoever yet you still, to use your own words "parroted it all day".

I don't think he made a mistake, I know he did, just as he has in the past, as have several others in interviews.

[Dystemper]

After the class balancing and the continual legendary drama, will anyone really care about Nighthold. everyone I knew that was still playing when I quit almost 2 months ago has already quit.

[Xenorun]

After the class balancing and the continual legendary drama, will anyone really care about Nighthold. everyone I knew that was still playing when I quit almost 2 months ago has already quit.

Nice anecdotal evidence. Doesn't mean that millions of people aren't still playing lol.

[Deleted]

After the class balancing and the continual legendary drama, will anyone really care about Nighthold. everyone I knew that was still playing when I quit almost 2 months ago has already quit.

Nice anecdote.

But yeah, idk if I cba with the cancer that is legendaries and titanforged, not to mention the god awful stats on tier gear.

[Deleted]

Nice anecdote.

But yeah, idk if I cba with the cancer that is legendaries and titanforged, not to mention the god awful stats on tier gear.

I'm still hyped about NH. For the tier set? No. For the legendaries? No? But DESPITE all these it's a new raid, the bosses look fun and that's what a game should be about: The fun of playing it.

If you don't have fun, don't play. Easy. Not gonna let a bad legendary system and class imbalance ruin my fun with the things that are good.

As to the raid tier discussion: It's funny how invested both parties are and how utterly convinced both sides are that they are 100% right.
It'll be funny when there will either be another full raid tier after Tomb of Sargeras or not because one side will feel really stupid for how heavily they invested themselves into arguing something that no one (outside of Blizzard - possibly even IN Blizzard) can say for sure at this point in time.

[Deleted]

I'm still hyped about NH. For the tier set? No. For the legendaries? No? But DESPITE all these it's a new raid, the bosses look fun and that's what a game should be about: The fun of playing it.

If you don't have fun, don't play. Easy. Not gonna let a bad legendary system and class imbalance ruin my fun with the things that are good.

As to the raid tier discussion: It's funny how invested both parties are and how utterly convinced both sides are that they are 100% right.
It'll be funny when there will either be another full raid tier after Tomb of Sargeras or not because one side will feel really stupid for how heavily they invested themselves into arguing something that no one (outside of Blizzard - possibly even IN Blizzard) can say for sure at this point in time.

The fun of it is kinda sucked away when there are so many things to be concerned about reward-wise.

The only reason why I'm still playing Legion is because I'm invested in the Nightfallen storyline, and thus want to raid NH and whatever future raids they throw at us.

Why would there not be a raid tier after ToS? Are we going to the Legion homeworld just for a sightseeing tour?

[Dystemper]

Nice anecdotal evidence. Doesn't mean that millions of people aren't still playing lol.

Maybe , maybe not. Time will tell. If thigs keep going the way they seem to be, Legion could end up below WOD sub numbers

[Sluvs]

You do not need a tier set to be considered a tier. Tier is more about progression/levels and not just tier set.

Xavius currently literally says

"Defeat Xavius in the Emerald Nightmare on Heroic difficulty or higher, before the release of the next tier of content.

It literally says THE NEXT TIER OF CONTENT" and you're trying to argue it's the same tier? It's not.

imperetor/blackhand's achievements were removed in 6.2. Sha/impress/will were removed in 5.2

AOTC always says it will be removed BEFORE the next tier of content.

Therefore, blizzard treats NH/EN as seperate tiers, and yes I know EN doesn't have tiers, that doesn't change how blizzard sees it.

I mean dont be stupid. AOTC is never removed when the tier is STILL CURRENT.

Ok, let's assume that you are right.

The crux of this argument was the theory that blizzard would do a 3 tier expansion, and they were using vague words in order to provide less content and still say that there were 3 tiers in legion. Resulting in something similar do WoD in terms of content.

Now you have to face some facts: Tomb of sargeras has been announced as patch 7.2 and Argus as 7.3.

And now you have to make a choice:
Accept that the 1st tier is composed of EN, ToV and NH. Making legion a 3 tier expansion, making null and void the argument of a WoD-like expansion and destroying the argument that legion does not have content.
Or
Accept that the 1st tier is composed of EN and ToV. Making NH the 2nd tier and making legion a 4 tier expansion. Making null and void the argument of a WoD-like expansion and destroying the argument that legion does not have content.

As you can see, both options means that the core argument of this conversation (the lack of content in this expansion) is objectively wrong. You may choose to win the battle, but your war has already been lost.

[kamuimac]

The fun of it is kinda sucked away when there are so many things to be concerned about reward-wise.

mayeb start caring about progression and actual raid not about stupid loot that you gonna replace whenever new tier comes.

[SirBeef]

We know it's part of the same tier because blizzard said so. You just seem to have a hard time grasping at that.

3 Tiers. They told us we'd get that many from the start.

7.0-7.1.5 EN/ToV/NH

7.2 ToS

7.3/7.4 Argus w/e has a tier

EDIT: Otherwise, we can just say that EN/ToV aren't a tier at all (like others have suggested) and just say it's bonus content. But to say that it's its own tier is factually wrong.

Or we can say EN/ToV is Legion T1. NH is Legion T2. ToS is Legion T3. The Argus patch raid is legion T4. Tiers of raiding do not mean tier set gear is dropped from it. HM had no tier gear but was considered part of Tier 17.

Personally I consider EN/ToV/NH one tier.

- - - Updated - - -

except thats what fucking raid tiers mean, they have ment that since vanilla, and have been said multiple times what raid tiers mean
a raid tier is a grouping of raids that all contain a tier set
Highmaul and blackrock foundry were a raid tier, even though highmaul had no tier gear

and im saying the text of the acheiv is out of date
there has been tons of achieves with incorrect text...
have you never fucking heard of stuff changing?

If you consider HM and BRF part of the same tier then you have to do the same with EN/ToV/NH/ Unless I read you wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Nice anecdotal evidence. Doesn't mean that millions of people aren't still playing lol.

I haven't seen one person in my guild or on my friends list quit so that must mean Legion is doing great right? This is typical of all games. Tons of people and activity when stuff is new and fresh. It dies down for a while until new stuff is added, then it goes up again for a while and back down. If people are too dense to understand this by now, there is no hope.