Ghostcrawler: "player feedback is nearly always too long"

[WowIsDead64]

...

I don't care about raiding now -> I care neither about Artefacts, nor about Legendaries. As I've already said, I set goals, that are achievable for me. 3xArtefacts are unachievable? Ok. I don't even care about them then. It's Blizzards' problem, that they make this content unavailable for me. Why would I, if I haven't even bought Legion?

Why have I mentioned Tri-spec? The problem with flying is the same, as with Tri-spec in the past. What problem? BLIZZARD DON'T EVEN TRY! No Beta. No PTR. No discussion. They simply said - "We tried everything internally - it didn't work". What have you tried? What didn't work? Are you sure, that your internal testing can cover all possible situations on live servers? We have Tri-spec now and sky isn't falling. I currently play Tanaan with flying - sky isn't falling either. So, what's the problem?

[rda]

They simply said - "We tried everything internally - it didn't work". What have you tried? What didn't work? Are you sure, that your internal testing can cover all possible situations on live servers? We have Tri-spec now and sky isn't falling. I currently play Tanaan with flying - sky isn't falling either. So, what's the problem?

You are exactly right here. "We tried everything internally" merely means that they tried a couple of things, most (all?) of them simply as a mental exercise. There was no testing as players understand it at all, guaranteed.

Besides, I can just imagine the beta test for no flying - people's reaction will just be "are you nuts? put that back in". Rightfully, might I add.

[Leonora]

I don't care about raiding now -> I care neither about Artefacts, nor about Legendaries. As I've already said, I set goals, that are achievable for me. 3xArtefacts are unachievable? Ok. I don't even care about them then. It's Blizzards' problem, that they make this content unavailable for me. Why would I, if I haven't even bought Legion?

Why have I mentioned Tri-spec? The problem with flying is the same, as with Tri-spec in the past. What problem? BLIZZARD DON'T EVEN TRY! No Beta. No PTR. No discussion. They simply said - "We tried everything internally - it didn't work". What have you tried? What didn't work? Are you sure, that your internal testing can cover all possible situations on live servers? We have Tri-spec now and sky isn't falling. I currently play Tanaan with flying - sky isn't falling either. So, what's the problem?

Despite me prodding you, you keep showing a lack of empathy with the developers. But then, I now also see you dont play the game. Then we lack a basis for talking. Enjoy, good sir! /Leo out

[stigz]

Can we please all stop caring about this cancerous game and create a new better one

[WowIsDead64]

You are exactly right here. "We tried everything internally" merely means that they tried a couple of things, most (all?) of them simply as a mental exercise. There was no testing as players understand it at all, guaranteed.

Besides, I can just imagine the beta test for no flying - people's reaction will just be "are you nuts? put that back in". Rightfully, might I add.

I mean biggest concerns about Tri-spec have always been: 1) Players will be forced to play all 3 specs 2) Hybrids will have some sort of unfair advantage over pure dpsers 3) 3rd spec will be used for min-maxing 4) Death of class/spec fantasy. But, as Bashiok mentioned, some people just tend to daydream about worst case scenarios. How about trying it on live servers? You know, over all this years Blizzard have tried all possible crappy ideas, they could. And how Tri-spec could be worse, than, let's say, Garrisons? Yet GC "tested" something internally and came to conclusion, that Tri-spec would doom Wow immediately.

Same with some flying vs no flying compromises. Let's try some. We tried all possible crappy game designs, that caused fails of 3 xpacks in a row. Yet they were considered to be "successful" ones. At least for 1-2 months since their release... What can we try? May be per zone pathfinder?

[rda]

Despite me prodding you, you keep showing a lack of empathy with the developers. But then, I now also see you dont play the game. Then we lack a basis for talking. Enjoy, good sir! /Leo out

Why should anyone have empathy with the developers? Seriously, why? The root of relations here is that there is a product which people are buying for a particular purpose.

I don't care what developers think. I care about what I want. Yes, this blunt. Welcome to the thing that makes the whole world work.

[Deleted]

Why should anyone have empathy with the developers? Seriously, why? The root of relations here is that there is a product which people are buying for a particular purpose.

I don't care what developers think. I care about what I want. Yes, this blunt. Welcome to the thing that makes the whole world work.

You don't understand the concept of conveying a message in an understandable format, obviously.

This must be why the Official forums is full of so much.. "Constructive" critique.

[Darkeon]

Because the First one gives no usuable feedback, and the second choice gives too much feedback that drowns out relevant feedback.

So exactly what he's talking about. I guess people just can't understand simple concepts though

Do tell me more about this "simple concept" and what is the different between what is "Too little feedback", to "just perfect, relevant feedback" and "too much feedback". Oh wait, it's a subjective measure and more than likely a good way to say "We see your feedback, but y'know.. our vision trumps all".

[Leonora]

Why should anyone have empathy with the developers? Seriously, why? The root of relations here is that there is a product which people are buying for a particular purpose.

I don't care what developers think. I care about what I want. Yes, this blunt. Welcome to the thing that makes the whole world work.

Do you post just to hear yourself, or do you post to have a chance at changing the game?
Do you think the world will change just because you can bluntly state how you want everything, without any consideration of others and without consideration for the people who have to implement said change?

[Brightamethyst]

No, I don't think, that I know better, how to make game. What I know, is that game devs should try to make game for as wide auditory of players, as possible.

No. You think the devs should be trying to make the game for YOU. You have an opinion that run contrary to the current game design. That's fine, and many people even agree with you. However, not everyone agrees and those other opinions are just as valid. The devs can't possibly please everyone here and in this case your side lost. You don't like it, and that's understandable, but that's how it goes sometimes. The devs made a choice and complaining louder isn't going to change their minds.

Your feedback is NOT being ignored. It's just being acted on. There's a big difference.

[WowIsDead64]

No. You think the devs should be trying to make the game for YOU. You have an opinion that run contrary to the current game design. That's fine, and many people even agree with you. However, not everyone agrees and those other opinions are just as valid. The devs can't possibly please everyone here and in this case your side lost. You don't like it, and that's understandable, but that's how it goes sometimes. The devs made a choice and complaining louder isn't going to change their minds.

Your feedback is NOT being ignored. It's just being acted on. There's a big difference.

Never mind. I see, that you don't see a difference between demanding changes and simply, I don't know how to explain..., hoping, that may be changes will be made some day. I'm quite happy about current state of the game, cuz it allows me to finish all business, that have been stacking for several years. Game is too casual unfriendly, too grindy and too time gated now, so even long content droughts aren't enough for finishing all business. Bad thing - it's dead end. You should know, that Blizzard are very slow and tend to refuse to admit problems, till they won't have solutions for this problems already implemented ("don't promise anything, until it's already done" principle). No flyers had been asking to remove flying for several years. And it happened some day. Let's just hope, that some day we will have our day too.

[Seramore]

Despite me prodding you, you keep showing a lack of empathy with the developers. But then, I now also see you dont play the game. Then we lack a basis for talking. Enjoy, good sir! /Leo out

I'm surprised it took you this long to figure out that this guy has no idea what he's talking about and is a literal waste of space in this thread.

[Super Kami Dende]

Do tell me more about this "simple concept" and what is the different between what is "Too little feedback", to "just perfect, relevant feedback" and "too much feedback". Oh wait, it's a subjective measure and more than likely a good way to say "We see your feedback, but y'know.. our vision trumps all".

OK, but I still think you will struggle with it. Simple concept of player feedback, which works very much the same way as Workplace Feedback in which I had to learn when I was a Manager.

Saying "X sucks!!" without a reason - bad feedback.
Writing 6 paragraphs to explain 1 point - bad feedback.
Mixing feedback with emotional responses and personal attacks - bad feedback.

Making feedback which does not whinge but instead in a few bullet points pointing out the problem with bullet point "solutions" best feedback.

If you can say like this:

DK Mobility:
-Issue x
-Issue Y
-Proposed solution x
-Proposed solution y.

You give your feedback in 4 concise lines, instead of a scrawling page of 5 paragraphs. People being unable to compress their thoughts into simple and concise points is not Blizzards problem. People act as if with the 1000's of Forum Threads with so much spam and unnecessary paragraphs about asinine shit should be read word for word by a Dev somewhere. The same people that then complain that the Devs should spend their time "fixing" their game.

It's like what do you people want? Devs to waste their time picking through 10000 irrelevant paragraphs just to find 1 good bit of feedback, or Devs being able to see multiple points that run at 1-2 sentences each at most.

[effs]

I care about what I want.

Problem with that statement is, no one cares what you want either. Which is blunt (sorry :P).

Also, healthy relationship between a company and their consumers goes a long way.

[WowIsDead64]

Do you know the difference between Explorer and RPer? Explorer is "reader" and RPer - is "writer". Explorers "read", what devs have written for them. RPers "write" their own story. May be deep inside their minds some players are actually writers and like to write essays? Simply because devil is in details. And L2Read - is one of essential skills in our life. If you can't read anything, except comic books - then you're simply uneducated. For example my diploma project was 200 A4 pages long. And it wasn't filled with water - all information was important. Cuz first part of any diploma project - is always part, where you have to prove, that everything, you write next - is important and meaningful.

[nekobaka]

Considering other devs have defended CRZ post GC departure I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory claims of GC and bribery to defense CRZ.

[WowIsDead64]

Considering other devs have defended CRZ post GC departure I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory claims of GC and bribery to defense CRZ.

CRZ - is best example of "behind the scene" features. I.e. features, that exist not due to game design reasons, but also due to other reasons, such as economical ones. CRZ - is essentially "closing servers without actually closing servers". Yeah, majority of hardware has been moved to HS, HotS and OW most likely (instead of buying new), but number of "logical" servers is exactly the same. Who knows, may be the reason behind no flying is exactly the same - it's removed to decrease server load. Cuz, you know, when you move, server have to constantly send you data about new objects, that come into your sight. Fast moving - more objects to send. It isn't the problem, when content is already obsoleted and only minority of players do it.

[Velerios]

He's actually right: long posts have the problem that many people don't read them or do not have the time to distill out the important things. They might be very constructive, but to pick out the important things, it takes time, and not everyone has the time to read romans of player feedback. If the feedback is targeted to developers, a small recap is not wrong. Or highlight the important parts.

A walloftextthatisveryconstructivebutnobodywillreaditbecauseyouabsolutelyrefusetomakeitreada bleforotherpeople surely doesn't help!

[lockybalboa]

Oh boy, yet another GC thread, but heck i would take GC over Ion anytime

[Segus1992]

"WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
"[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.

Yep, nuance isn't a thing.

I swear, everyone on these forums argue in the most nonsensical way possible.