Truth about Garrosh?

[WildberryFan]

Q:I played an alliance Paladin on the Blizzard Watch of the Queue guild. So shout out to them. My question for you guys is: How far in advance do you guys plan your character arcs? For example, with Garrosh, he was introduced in Burning Crusade. Did you guys know his ultimate fate right then, or did it modify over time as the story evolved.

Alex: That’s a really good question. So how far in advance do we plan out character arcs for our big characters, or little ones. Garrosh, is an interesting example, very far. Garrosh was one of those ones where Metzen and I actually sat down, we are like we need Grommash’s kid. He is going to be in Nagrand, and he has a destiny that we need to fulfill; and we didn’t quite know where that destiny would go, and initially we wanted to go much more heroic with Garrosh.

It didn’t quite turn out that way, but I am satisfied with where he went; but other times you have things like Wrathion, who we had no idea where his arc would go; and it is just about who gets geeked up about the character, or whatever it might be, or the story, and where they want to take it. So that started out Badlands, and the next thing you know, it is all over the place and it is awesome; and it is something that we want to do more of. So a little bit of both. We do plan for a lot, and for much we… do not.


So Garrosh was going to be a hero, he was a badass with a good heart in WotLK and Cata,but in MoP he turned into a crazy gorrila-hitler out of nowhere.
If you notice,there was no sign that Garrosh was evil in all the original Pandaria zones and maps.Horde players followed Nazgrim,Kiryn,Shokia,and Clutchpop.Both Horde and Alliance were diasters for Pandaria.Just like Metzen said at Blizzcon 2011"the enemy in Mists of Pandaria is war itself".
They made Garrosh evil and blamed everything on him in Pre-Patch(bombed Theramore),Patch 5.1,5.3and5.4.

I remember that Afrasiabi moved to Titan after patch 4.1. And then Kosak took over.Was this the main reason they changed Garrosh in MoP and Tides of War?I think they also changed Jaina's character at that time.








Vol'jin: I've no love for Garrosh, dat much is for sure, but leavin' tha Horde is not a decision I be takin' lightly.

Vol'jin: Dere's only one with tha answers I seek. Ya can stay and watch if ya like.
* Thrall arrives *

Thrall: Vol'jin. It is good to see you, brother.

Vol'jin: Thrall! I am glad ya be well. Dere were rumors otherwise.

Thrall: Indeed. Someone did try to kill me, but that is not my greatest concert at the moment. The world itself calls for my aid.

Vol'jin: I must beg ya council, my friend. I can't be standin' by Garrosh while he be turnin' our people against each other for the sake of war. My respect for ya does not extend to dis new Horde... I am thinkin' of leadin' my people away.

Thrall: Vol'jin, I chose Garrosh because he has the strength to lead our people through these trying times.

Thrall: For all my supposed wisdom, there have been moments that I've barely been able to hold the Horde together. The Wrath Gate and Undercity displayed that clearly.

Thrall: The Horde cries for a hero of old. An orc of true blood that will bow to no human and bear no betrayal. A warrior that will make our people proud again. Garrosh can be that hero.

Thrall: I did not make this decision lightly, Vol'jin. I know our alliances will suffer from it. I know the Horde will be irreversibly changed. But I made this choice with confidence that Garrosh is exactly what the Horde needs.

Thrall: I'm trusting you and the other leaders to not let this divide our people. You are stronger than that.

Vol'jin: I understand, brotha, I will tink on this and be troublin' ya no furtha. You have a world to be savin'.

Thrall: Throm'ka, old friend.

* Thrall leaves. Vol'jin is now talking to the player *

Vol'jin: Ya are strong and proud, youngsblood. The Darskpear will be honored ta have you fight beside d'em.

Vol'jin: Thrall's words are true, as dey always be. The Horde is much more den a few old stubborn leaders and a handful of heroes from Northrend. The people be cryin' Garrosh's name... at least for now.

Vol'jin: Still I be hopin' Thrall will return to us one day. That future right now be lookin' very grim and bloody.

Vol'jin: Go now. Make tha Darkspear proud. Dere are many wars ahead of us. I'm sure ya be havin' a part to play in all of dem.



Eitrigg talked about Garrosh in Cata.

Garrosh is brash and speaks harshly, but his intentions are good. In time, he will grow to see your people as a valuable ally.

after

Vol'jin is wise, and his intentions are good. In time, he will grow to see your people as a valuable ally.

now

Saurfang is wise, and his intentions are good. In time, he will grow to see your people as a valuable ally.

- - - Updated - - -

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/3992143

Dev Watercooler - Faction Favoritism November 25th,2011 by Dave Kosak


Garrosh(Heil Gitler)
Voljin(Alliance friends,this way)
Jaina(Lady goes crazy)
Thrall(Green Garbage)
Tyrande(Hail to my Human King)
Lor'themar(Ready to jump ship,all the time)

I think they ruined all these big characters during the last few years.So happy Afrasiabi is back.

[Aucald]

I'm not sure of your intent here? Yes, the character of Garrosh had his story-arc changed in Cata and even further in MoP - it's not really known where Garrosh could've gone had the dark turn he took had been changed or in the hands of another director. As for the quest text, those are due to the name in the quest text referring to a variable that likely represents the current faction leader of Orgrimmar. As the NPC who has that distinction changes from expansion to expansion or content patch to content patch, the quest text changes to reflect the new NPC. The Devs don't usually go back back over older quests outside the current focus for context and continuity issues - the variables are there just to ensure the text matches the world state to a degree, but since they're of much lesser importance than the current expansion's content then you get the occasional composition error.

[thesmall001]

Alex A Frisbee never left WoW. He has consistently helmed quest design since (near-enough) the start. Kosak was a Lead Quest Designer, who shifted to Narrative Design in MoP, Narrative Design is more-or-less the way quests and zones are structured to tell a story rather than controlling the story itself, though there is a certain amount of creative influence over how the story is presented.

I don't think they ever intended for Garrosh to be "heroic" outright, just a more "heroic" villain than he ended up being. You see hints of that before he decided "honor is for losers" in MoP and you can see he was already being hinted at being fairly megalomanic in Wolfheart (just after Cataclysm launched), albeit, honourably so. I get the impression that the Leaders knew where they wanted him to end up but not how they wanted him to get there. Which explains away the inconsistencies in his character during Cataclysm. By the time MoP was confirmed, they likely knew exactly what they wanted out of him and you see he's stretching too far in 5.0.

His original character arc, ultimately, went to Varian. He started feral and became noble and honourable and proud. Re-reading Wolfheart right now and I think that book probably helped them realise what was natural for the characters. Varian and Garrosh start off as basically the same characters in Wrath of the Lich King.

I don't remember anything about Garrosh being good-hearted in Wrath. For all the stories he came back with that made him sound like a Legendary Hero, all I remember is: 1) He demonstrated he was unstable and had major daddy issues pre-wratch 2) He ruined a meeting to talk about how we were going to tackle a literal god of death waking up in Ulduar 3) He attacked the Alliance whilst they were already weak from fighting the Lich King 4) He ruined a tournament that was meant to unite the factions and turned it into a faction brawl 5) He sat at the bottom of Icecrown whilst real heroes like Saurfang and Tirion went to do the hard work. Garrosh was always weak-sauce. He didn't have the strength of a true Warchief.

[Arrashi]

They needed a reason for pandas to shove their heavy handed wisdom down our throats. Garrosh becoming pointless villain with...whatever was his motivation, also allowed to show us how "badass" and "savage" orcs are, re-tell us the story we already heard (prime example of writers falling in love with themselves), develop the...uh..the..you know the troll guy, but most importanly shown us that orcs are the joke race that can be summarized with (allow me to rephase it in a very well-mannered form to avoid being considered racist) a "Fine you lads, who are in fact no responsible for any sort of law-breaking actions you could connect them to".

Like seriously, i love heavy handed holocaust references just as much as everyone else but if they needed to make him into that super villain they should had just give him that demonic rape spawning pool from "berserk".

[Zulkhan]

he was a badass with a good heart in WotLK and Cata

Yup. He shown a very good heart when he placed a bounty over your head the moment you turned your back on him.

And this wall of nothing spamming bolded lines and screenshots tainted with hollow conspiracy theories somehow forgot this little gem from WotLK:

For a soldier of the Horde, loss is absolute. Loss means death and there is no negotiation or interpretation with death. One can only hope that the manner of their death was honorable. But victory... Victory can mean many things. As you have probably noticed, the Kor'kron are there in full force. The Warchief has sent his elite guard to help secure victory in Northrend. They, along with you and other heroes, are pushing the Lich King and his forces towards an inevitable conclusion. With each challenge you overcome, we are one step closer to ridding our world of Arthas and the Scourge.

And therein lays the dilemma. For you see, our forces in Northrend work under the auspices of young Hellscream. Each victory bolsters the morale of the Horde forces here, which carries through to the rest of Azeroth. It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods, which in turn brings us closer to a place we have not been in many years: a dark place.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=35941/letter-from-saurfang

Here you have Blizzard spilling out with their usual oh-so-subtle foreshadowing that Garrosh was intended to eventually go bad, much like you had Uther warning Arthas about vengeance and bloodlust during the very first mission of WC3.

Get over it, Garrosh was always intended to be a villain. Maybe not when his character came out to be (and that is the time where Afrasiabi's mention about an "heroic" Garrosh makes sense, not your deliberate projection of said bit about the "lol-hearted" Garrosh of WotLK and Cata) but the path was already chosen in WotLK. At the very most said path has been a bit messy with Afrasiabi himself screwing it up but the direction of the character was that, an Arthas-like fall to darkness (even though it didn't work as well as that). It had only to be decided when and how it was going to happen.

[Traveler Voltin]

maybe he was originally but it changed in wrath/cata. hell his own creator did not know they were going to make him evil.(aka stonetalon issue)

[Arrashi]

Get over it, Garrosh was always intended to be a villain.

Following that logic - was lol'jin always intended to be a failure that will be cut out of the story before he does anything ? Like before 5.1 devs were like "this guy will warm the seat for sylvie and die without anyone caring ! Glorious !" ?

[Zulkhan]

Following that logic - was lol'jin always intended to be a failure that will be cut out of the story before he does anything ? Like before 5.1 devs were like "this guy will warm the seat for sylvie and die without anyone caring ! Glorious !" ?

I think there were hints in his novel that things could have gone real bad, in relation to a "throne" and some other things I don't honestly remember. But apart that, we can't say there was much foreshadowing about any of the Legion events.

And that's the difference with Garrosh. The sucker's fate was quite foreshadowed before MoP came to be and let's be honest, Blizzard is all but subtle in its storytelling, foreshadowing included.

[thesmall001]

Following that logic - was lol'jin always intended to be a failure that will be cut out of the story before he does anything ? Like before 5.1 devs were like "this guy will warm the seat for sylvie and die without anyone caring ! Glorious !" ?

Yeah, Bwonsamdi all but says, "Hey man, you can take the Horde back and get it on track but it'll cost you in the long run."

Whether you like it or not, Blizzard will continue supporting social justice ideas and that means portraying dictators and -above all else, just nasty- characters as bad guys that ultimately lose. I, for one, consider that good story telling: You set up the pins, you foreshadow how they'll fall, then you execute that plan and try to show another side to it as you go. Garrosh sucked, he followed exactly the path they put him on in TBC, Nazgrim didn't suck but he died too and that actually made me feel something.

You can blame Pandas or Developers or even other players. But I think you're just salty cos the guy you liked was a baddie all along and that probably says a lot about you as a person xD

[Kellorion]

Actually he was a blood thirsty dick in WotLk too. His talks with Saurfang, the action of Krenna, the Korkron Flanking the Alliance to wipe them out and the Scourge when it wasnt needed and furthered the brewing war. His attitude at the Ulduar council, at the tourney grounds.

He went from a whiny bitch in TBC to a college bro warmonger in a unexplained heartbeat.

[callipygoustp]

Dammit OP, use some spoiler tags!!!

[Tanthoris]

Garrosh was hardly ever a "heroic" character. In TBC he was a cry baby who was upset over his daddy issues. In WotLK he was a raging idiot who hated the alliance for no real reason, he never knew them growing up so where did his hatred for them come from? In Cata, he was all over the place; condemning a general for bombing a peaceful druid town but also decideing to team up with a group of orcs who enslaved dragons and were basically the scummiest of the orcs that remained on Azeroth.

In MoP he went back into his war fueled ragegasm, and he wanted to start a war with the alliance and he would use any means necessary to win in the process, even using the power of the Sha, which was known to have horrible outcomes for everyone. We know what happened there... I wish that he was corrupted by the old god heart or something instead of just being a power made dictator that he was.

And then in WoD for his brief period he decided to destroy his only chance at having an infinitely powerful army(killing Kairoz) and then telling the Iron Horde to attack Azeroth before they even quelled the problems they were facing on their own turf.

Garrosh always was, and has been a moronic ragefaced idiot who had daddy issues.

[The One Percent]

Jaina might be crazy but she's my sexy fantasy babe cause who wouldn't want a perfect body like hers.

You should be banned for quoting all that to add one stupid ass statement.

[Tanthoris]

Jaina might be crazy but she's my sexy fantasy babe cause who wouldn't want a perfect body like hers.

For all that is holy on Azeroth, please edit out that WHOLE qoute...

[vilememory]

Just another example of the quality writing at Blizzard, remember that Sylvannas Helja thing? Never going to get finished! You will never know what her deal is or was! In fact that whole worgen vs forsaken thing will never come up! It was literally one zone! HA HA! FOOLISH FOOLS! NOW WATCH AS WE WRECK ILLIDAN! AGAIN!

EDIT: You know what, Malfurion is going to beat the Legion for us! He is the one who is going to jump in, do something stupid, nearly get us all killed. Then take credit for what happens and rebanish Illidan along with his demon hunters. Because nature is the only way, and only the way I do it. Malfurion becomes the leader of the Alliance and forces everyone to accept a druidic mentality and lifestyle.

[Zulkhan]

He went from a whiny bitch in TBC to a college bro warmonger in a unexplained heartbeat.

In TBC he was a cry baby who was upset over his daddy issues. In WotLK he was a raging idiot who hated the alliance for no real reason, he never knew them growing up so where did his hatred for them come from?

Heart of War (Garrosh's leader short-story) kind of cleared that out. In fact, his initial hatred for the Alliance was probably one of the few selfless sentiments he ever felt, since he deemed the Alliance the main reason for why the Horde couldn't grow and prosper.

He was still an idiot with a way too hot blood but an idiot with some sort of motivation nonetheless.

Jaina might be crazy but she's my sexy fantasy babe cause who wouldn't want a perfect body like hers.

I don't think I ever vividly hated you like I do right now. If I could have burned you from a distance I swear I would have done that instantly the moment I saw that long ass quote.

[Golden Yak]

I was completely on board with Garrosh for pretty much everything, until they pushed him to be racist. Had to have him become a villain somehow, I guess.

Was 100% behind him, otherwise. And frankly, we probably could've done without the trolls, and even the Forsaken, since Sylvanas was getting pretty villainous too at the time. No reason to make enemies of the tauren and the blood elves, though. Given that Garrosh was willing to work with the goblins, there ought to have been someway for him to live with the other races though. Like I said, Blizzard was determined to make him a baddie, so into that role he is pushed, sadly.

#GarroshWas(Mostly)Right

[Arrashi]

I think there were hints in his novel that things could have gone real bad, in relation to a "throne" and some other things I don't honestly remember. But apart that, we can't say there was much foreshadowing about any of the Legion events.

And that's the difference with Garrosh. The sucker's fate was quite foreshadowed before MoP came to be and let's be honest, Blizzard is all but subtle in its storytelling, foreshadowing included.

It really wasn't foreshadowed. I mean god forbid character had some flaws and area to develop right ? But i guess we kinda need some bland characters like that begging thing....oh wait he got cut down as well.

Let's be real, blizzard writes their lore an the knee, and WoD with vanishing isles, kargath getting his role cut off as well as his hand, and grom not being final boss after all proved it more than anything.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, Bwonsamdi all but says, "Hey man, you can take the Horde back and get it on track but it'll cost you in the long run."

Whether you like it or not, Blizzard will continue supporting social justice ideas and that means portraying dictators and -above all else, just nasty- characters as bad guys that ultimately lose. I, for one, consider that good story telling: You set up the pins, you foreshadow how they'll fall, then you execute that plan and try to show another side to it as you go. Garrosh sucked, he followed exactly the path they put him on in TBC, Nazgrim didn't suck but he died too and that actually made me feel something.

You can blame Pandas or Developers or even other players. But I think you're just salty cos the guy you liked was a baddie all along and that probably says a lot about you as a person xD

Nice passive agressive smiley and nice ad hominem

Yeah, blizzard is sure making great, deep storytelling, especially the part that turned all orcs into a joke race.

[Trassk]

Oh my, I guess plans changed then

What a shame.

[Mehrunes]

I think there were hints in his novel that things could have gone real bad, in relation to a "throne" and some other things I don't honestly remember. But apart that, we can't say there was much foreshadowing about any of the Legion events.

And that's the difference with Garrosh. The sucker's fate was quite foreshadowed before MoP came to be and let's be honest, Blizzard is all but subtle in its storytelling, foreshadowing included.

True that. Though it's the difference between the two mostly because Vol'jin sucked so hard that he lacked anything tangible that could even cast a memory of a shadow for there to be foreshadowing. Hard to foreshadow changes to nothingness.