Does the M+ timer make it more fun for you?

[Deleted]

In my exp 95% of people who can do big aoe dps and properly use kicks and stuns are far more better in utility and strategy if it comes to it than people who deal moderate dps.. And usually people who cant match their dps are complaining..

And in my experience people who only focus on DPS and even manage to pull huge numbers, still stand in every volcanic there is and then blame the healer for dying. Have two of those in our guild, they care for nothing but damage and if you assign them to a task on a boss fight that is not to focus on the boss 100 % of the time, they complain immediately. I encounter them regularly in pugged mythic plus as well, last time was EoA +12 I think, this Demon Hunter kept dying on the last boss because he couldn't avoid the mechanics and blamed the mage for not pulling enough DPS, when the mage managed to survive and eventually pulled higher damage because of it.

Ever since wrath the focus has shifted so heavily on to damage that nothing else seems to matter. The mythic plus design reflects this as well.

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Not sure we're even playing the same game.

1. We do use CC quite frequently on M+ runs, with the timer, in order to beat the timer. We just have to coordinate in coms on the fly and be spot on with our timing.
2. Trash mobs currently have more interesting abilities than at any point in the history of WoW. Special attacks like knife dance and barrage in addition to bolstering/skittish/necrotic/etc.
3. The mobs already scale IN ADDITION to the timer. Without the timer, they would have to scale even faster. Players struggling to beat the timer now can at least complete the dungeons while ignoring the timer. Take away the timer, and the instances would scale to a point where more players would be unable to clear them at all.

1: When I say CC, I mean stuff like polymorph, fear, hex, freezing trap, banish, not stuns. You don't have time to crowd control in mythic plus if you want to beat the timer.
2: You can completely ignore most npc abilities and just nuke them down with perhaps exception of +13 fortified, but even there I bet it's still about that aoe damage to bring them down as quickly as possible. I admit +12 is the highest I've ever run, but even there the tactic is the same.
3: They already scale to a point where players are unable to beat them, with or without the timer, that's the whole point, to always be able to push yourself further.

[Raiju]

Idk man I get a lot of 3 chests on 8 to 11s by just govogo pull pull pull runs.

Well regardless of difficulty a timer is going to mean you pull as quick as you can and pre-arrange cc you use. That being said 8-11 is easy territory now as well (to the point that anything under 10 is mass boosted aoefests)
@Emerald Phoenix banishes, saps, imprisons etc. are all commonly used at 12+ in runs I do. The fact you aren't just means you're missing something to make your runs easier.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

[QUOTE=Emerald Phoenix;43911840]And in my experience people who only focus on DPS and even manage to pull huge numbers, still stand in every volcanic there is and then blame the healer for dying. Have two of those in our guild, they care for nothing but damage and if you assign them to a task on a boss fight that is not to focus on the boss 100 % of the time, they complain immediately. I encounter them regularly in pugged mythic plus as well, last time was EoA +12 I think, this Demon Hunter kept dying on the last boss because he couldn't avoid the mechanics and blamed the mage for not pulling enough DPS, when the mage managed to survive and eventually pulled higher damage because of it.

Ever since wrath the focus has shifted so heavily on to damage that nothing else seems to matter. The mythic plus design reflects this as well.

[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1]

My teams use CC other than stuns fairly routinely in M+. Even on speed runs, we CC some of the pelters for example. Right now we carry guild mates on depleted 10 and 12 keys every Monday to help them get better order hall chests. Because that's all we're doing, we can ignore the timer. The timer is only there if you choose to pay attention to it.

If they take away the timer, how would you distinguish between groups hoping to upgrade their keystones and those just happy to clear the instance? Because right now we essentially have two difficulty levels for each + (four if you count #s of chests). If you take away the timer as a divider, you lose this multiple difficulty and risk gating some players out of completing them at all.

[Deleted]

My teams use CC other than stuns fairly routinely in M+. Even on speed runs, we CC some of the pelters for example. Right now we carry guild mates on depleted 10 and 12 keys every Monday to help them get better order hall chests. Because that's all we're doing, we can ignore the timer. The timer is only there if you choose to pay attention to it.

If they take away the timer, how would you distinguish between groups hoping to upgrade their keystones and those just happy to clear the instance? Because right now we essentially have two difficulty levels for each + (four if you count #s of chests). If you take away the timer as a divider, you lose this multiple difficulty and risk gating some players out of completing them at all.

The only time I've asked people to CC in mythic plus is on the Pelter pack shortly before the second boss in Neltharion's lair with teeming, because their damage becomes too much for the healer to handle. All other times it's "Go-Go-Go!". You only ignore the timer because you have more than enough damage to handle it, because you're running mythic with more than the appropriate gear for +10-12, you're over-gearing it.

Risk gating some players out of completing a mythic plus they can't handle? How is that any different from groups who can't handle the timer or guilds who can't handle a certain raid boss? They go in, they try the highest mythic plus they can manage, they keep going until they hit a wall and then they try to break down said wall, either they manage it, or they don't. If they do, great, they advance to the next level, if they don't, too bad, try again next time.

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@Emerald Phoenix banishes, saps, imprisons etc. are all commonly used at 12+ in runs I do. The fact you aren't just means you're missing something to make your runs easier.

How does CC make the run easier when it's time based and the trash mobs go down without any of us dying? Crowd controlling would mean less aoe damage which would mean longer fights which would mean less time to complete the timer.

[Raiju]

How does CC make the run easier when it's time based and the trash mobs go down without any of us dying? Crowd controlling would mean less aoe damage which would mean longer fights which would mean less time to complete the timer.

You can do more dangerous pulls and ccing key mobs, then just deal with them while moving afterwards. You can abuse bolstering more. You can skip certain mobs, etc.

[Granyala]

I generally HATE it if a game presents me with a ticking clock, ESP when paired with impatient randoms, prone to panic.

So the timer doesn't make it more or less fun.

It sees to it that I don't bother with M+ at all. Same was true for the Challenge modes of old.

[Deleted]

You can do more dangerous pulls and ccing key mobs, then just deal with them while moving afterwards. You can abuse bolstering more. You can skip certain mobs, etc.

Or you could interrupt/stun said key mobs and aoe all of them. You can only "abuse" bolstering with immunity effects like banish and mind control, and that's only one of the many affixes, but sure, that's a minor one.

And your "deal with them while moving afterwards" just further pushes towards the "go-go-go!" mentality.

[Bigbazz]

Yeah the timers ruined the whole experience. It promotes a go go go mentality in a community already prone to such behavior. I like the slower and more planning nature of vanilla/tbc/ffxiv dungeons. M+ was an instant turn-off for me, I was really hyped for it until I found out about the timer and the extra chests.

Mythic + timers promote planning, CC and interrupts though. Problem with the TBC dungeons were that you only used CC because tanks were made of paper and couldn't do AOE threat, people still wanted to go fast. CC'ing mobs just for the sake of CC'ing a mob and then doing strict single target damage is hardly compelling or difficult, which is what it boils down to.

[Jipples]

I'm sick of 5 man content being gated by time nonsense instead of difficulty in completion. I'd prefer if next time around they cut out the timer from the run and upped the overall difficulty of each level so it was about who could even complete it and not which group went through as fast as possible. Timers are cool for leaderboards and awful for gating mechanisms.

At this point I'm just lucky they have not started putting higher difficulty raids on timers, given how prone they are to moving in the wrong direction with things.

[Deleted]

Mythic + timers promote planning, CC and interrupts though.

Wait what? How does it promote that - interrupts, fair enough, but explicit planning?

Any minute you stop to discuss anything on a run is a minute less on your timer, this doesn't exactly promote planning or communication. Unless you want to discuss the entire run in detail before you start, which.. I'm not sure happens in practice, ever (especially in PUGs).

In fact, in my experience, players are absolutely expected to know the common strategy before entering any mythic+ (same goes for raids). You will get destroyed and flamed into oblivion if you enter any mythic+ and wanted to find out strategies by, you know, actually playing the game instead of reading and watching guides beforehand.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Well regardless of difficulty a timer is going to mean you pull as quick as you can and pre-arrange cc you use. That being said 8-11 is easy territory now as well (to the point that anything under 10 is mass boosted aoefests)
@Emerald Phoenix banishes, saps, imprisons etc. are all commonly used at 12+ in runs I do. The fact you aren't just means you're missing something to make your runs easier.

I just don't bother to do higher because I just don't see the point to be honest. I am not missing shit. I mean if I am getting 3 chests at the level I desire doing it with just zerg AOE (afy dependant of course) than why the hell would I bother to sheep. To get a few seconds off so I can jerk off on myself on being a little faster? Please.

Quote someone else if you want to messure your dick on the internet. I am not impressed.

[Tojara]

Do higher keys if you want to slow down.

It's like people here think there is zero skill or planning that goes into these higher runs just because they go fast. All of you realize you can assign interrupts, CC/stuns prior to a run and have a plan going forward. Just because your experience with these runs is the 2-9 range where you're being carried by 4 other people who have these things planned out, doesn't mean that you can't have that same experience.

The timer is there to keep people honest. Otherwise skill wouldn't exist and you would see things like double healer/double tank or you would bring as much CC as possible for each individual instance.

The vast majority of the community only thinks in the 2-9 range where the norm is carries and go as fast as you can. The higher the keys (which probably 99% of the people in this thread probably don't think exist) go, the more this goes away. If you want 'skilled' and 'strategy' simply push yourself to where you don't overgear the content. The majority of this thread just seems like pointless crying because people who are geared for heroic raiding content and curb stomping normal raiding and wondering why.

The system is endless, the timer is to keep people honest. You want harder? You want slower? Push. Timers exist in almost every aspect of the PvE instance game, it's just in M+ there is a giant timer staring at you. Just because it's not there in other forms doesn't mean that it doesn't exist lol.

Outside of that what the fuck are people expecting from pugging these? Pugging is always synonymous with being fast/efficient, and asking people to be overgeared. This isn't exclusive to M+. Some of you are seriously bashing M+ (which is suppose to be the equivalent to heroic/mythic raiding for dungeons) because you're expected to know shit before hand. Is it unrealistic for pugs? Yeah, but the system was built around premade groups, hence why you can't traditionally random queue for it.

Oh and the timer essentially doesn't exist when you reach the point where you probably aren't going to complete it in time. Finish the dungeon at whatever pace you want and you still get rewarded with gear. People are far too fixated on the timer and ignore the fact that there is a challenge for them if they actually push their keys to the point they can no longer finish in time. That's your stopping point, that's the system telling you to get better gear, or get better at your class.

[Bigbazz]

Wait what? How does it promote that - interrupts, fair enough, but explicit planning?

Any minute you stop to discuss anything on a run is a minute less on your timer, this doesn't exactly promote planning or communication. Unless you want to discuss the entire run in detail before you start, which.. I'm not sure happens in practice, ever (especially in PUGs).

In fact, in my experience, players are absolutely expected to know the common strategy before entering any mythic+ (same goes for raids). You will get destroyed and flamed into oblivion if you enter any mythic+ and wanted to find out strategies by, you know, actually playing the game instead of reading and watching guides beforehand.

Clearly you plan before the run how you're going to approach things, if you're on voice coms you make decisions during the run on the fly. There is not need to stop and think about every detail, making decisions quickly and executing them is part of the deal. If you're going for high mythic + then you pre-plan pretty much everything and have a set way of pulling and dealing with every pack.

I learned the strategies by playing the game, not watched any guides. I also find that most groups do things different to some degree, but things are not going to differ greatly when you're facing the same challenges and requirements in terms of mob count. Strategy will also change greatly depending on which affixes you have, Bolstering or Necrotic especially requires different approaches.

[Deleted]

The only time I've asked people to CC in mythic plus is on the Pelter pack shortly before the second boss in Neltharion's lair with teeming, because their damage becomes too much for the healer to handle.

Or you know, you could tell your tank to push the threat as hard as possible in the first 2 stunlocks, before going back to where you all come from and hide behind the wall, making all the pelters stop shooting and run towards the tank and stack up again, which gives your healer enough time to top everyone off again and makes them nicely stacked for more aoe stuns/abilites.

[Echocho]

I tried discussing sheeps and saps in a m+12 today just to see what the reaction would be. I was told to shut up and do more damage.

[Aphrel]

Blizzard have once again failed to motivate us to do higher more difficult content. So what you end up having is a few hundred grps that run 7-9 in 4man grps rather than what any of us whouldve prefered wich is 15+ runs in 5man grps.

[Deleted]

I don't like the timer. But I'm just a pvper , who still enjoy some Pve every once in a while. And yes I do M+, would just prefer something else.

[MiseryIndex]

There's so many people who don't like the timer, which is fair, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. If only there was an option where the timer didn't matter. Like, I don't know, regular mythics. Or mythic+ where you deplete your key.

[Deleted]

Or you know, you could tell your tank to push the threat as hard as possible in the first 2 stunlocks, before going back to where you all come from and hide behind the wall, making all the pelters stop shooting and run towards the tank and stack up again, which gives your healer enough time to top everyone off again and makes them nicely stacked for more aoe stuns/abilites.

I am the tank, and I have used that tactic the times we've been guild only. The moment you pug in people it becomes a lot more difficult to make that clear to them though, even if I spell it out in plain text, they tend to be too focused on their rotation to even notice my attempt of pulling them behind the wall. Hence why I tell my friend(s) to just cc 1-2 of them, often faster and easier.

[Raiju]

I just don't bother to do higher because I just don't see the point to be honest. I am not missing shit. I mean if I am getting 3 chests at the level I desire doing it with just zerg AOE (afy dependant of course) than why the hell would I bother to sheep. To get a few seconds off so I can jerk off on myself on being a little faster? Please.

Quote someone else if you want to messure your dick on the internet. I am not impressed.

I'm sorry what? It's common in LFD for people (myself included) to boost 8-11. There isn't any dick measuring just because I'm pointing out a fact of playing the game.
@Emerald Phoenix if you had any reading comprehension at all I already covered the 'go-go-go' mentality in my original post.