Serena Williams: ‘If I were a man,’ I would have been considered the greatest a long

[Swizzington]

This is the woman who ate dog food because 'it looked good', and if you look at her convenient injury record after winning major tournaments, has obviously been doping for years.

[Deleted]

What? Are you talking of the same Human species on the same Earth everyone else inhabits, or some alternate species in an alternate reality?

Sexual dimorphism in humans is minimal and can't account for the difference in outcome.

Actually, females are inherently physically weaker than males, on average. Testosterone is partially responsible for muscle anabolism. Males have more testosterone on average. This is inescapable biology.

"On average" is not a good position to argue from when talking about high end athletes. It also ignores that engaging in certain activities will actually see a rise in testosterone thus discouraging girls and keeping them from engaging in such activities will actually help foster such differences or at least make them worse. You have athletes such as Caster Semenya whom people are trying to exclude from competing based on a similar argumentation despite her being a woman, which isn't even accounting for intersex or other situations.

You guys have simply slapped a convenient label on people to which you expect everyone to conform and anyone who doesn't fit the pre fabricated mold is getting hammered into it anyway because either they'll fit or they'll break.

Ill be sure to tell all those 110 pounds women they just gotta believe. Yeah i know you are trolling, i get it.

Comparing untrained women to high end athletes is absurd. You aren't taking some morbidly obese or extremly skinny man and extrapolate from those either. Calling people "trolls" because you disagree with them isn't productive behaviour in such a discussion.

[satimy]

She lost to a mediocre hungover d3 men's player 6-1 and she's a classless bitch in a sport that's all about class. Make no doubt she's probably the greatest women's player of all time, but she can be very alienating versus someone like Federer

[Kryos]

Girls are not inherently weaker, they are made to be weaker by a society that still hates and fears strong and assertive women who do not conform to the roles assigned to them.

Yes they are. Sure a woman who works out can beat a fat lazy male any time. But a healthy woman vs. a healthy male at the same level of fitness, the male will always win. It's simple biology.



So even a woman who dedicated her life to become the strongest woman can't beat a fit normal guy from the street. Deal with that biological fact, don't deny reality.

Yes, she would beat him:
But then his opponent needs to be her:

[Darkeon]

Yeah... she wouldn't.

[Deleted]

A consequence of cultural indoctrination of girls from a young age on. As they are forced to be feminine and stay away from activities being deemed boyish. Humans in general start as a blank slate onto which society and prejudice write and dictate what people can be for their entire life. Understanding and accepting this is the first step into a more equal and open society.

Girls are not inherently weaker, they are made to be weaker by a society that still hates and fears strong and assertive women who do not conform to the roles assigned to them.

What... what? Really? This is what you are going with?
That has got to be the biggest load of BS I've seen this year. You can't honestly say you believe that yourself

[minteK917]

Comparing untrained women to high end athletes is absurd. You aren't taking some morbidly obese or extremly skinny man and extrapolate from those either. Calling people "trolls" because you disagree with them isn't productive behaviour in such a discussion.

Can you explain why the average male Service among the top 300 for men is the world record for the women league? They are all top athletes here. Are you saying the women simply are not working hard enough? That in itself disqualify them from being the best lol.

There is no discussion, because facts cant be disputed. Women athlete know better than to ask for a mixed league, they want to be paid like everyone else and not lose their jobs. Notice how Women tennis is always whining for equal pay, NOT FOR MIXED LEAGUE. The former gives you increased incomes, the latter puts you out of a job.

[crewskater]

Women are just as good and capable as man. Just because we demotivate girls and try to keep them out of sports because of societal norms and cultural programming doesn't mean they couldn't compete. A first step to undo this would be to actually integrate and treat them as equals.

What a load of crap! First, cite some sources for your claim. Secondly, are you familiar with gender dymorphism? You do realize there are physical differences between men and women which will give them advantages over the other sex. Look at all the weightlifting records and notice that almost all of them are held by men?

[Underverse]

Sexual dimorphism in humans is minimal and can't account for the difference in outcome.


"On average" is not a good position to argue from when talking about high end athletes. It also ignores that engaging in certain activities will actually see a rise in testosterone thus discouraging girls and keeping them from engaging in such activities will actually help foster such differences or at least make them worse. You have athletes such as Caster Semenya whom people are trying to exclude from competing based on a similar argumentation despite her being a woman, which isn't even accounting for intersex or other situations.

You guys have simply slapped a convenient label on people to which you expect everyone to conform and anyone who doesn't fit the pre fabricated mold is getting hammered into it anyway because either they'll fit or they'll break.

Sexual dimorphism is pretty minimal in humans, but there are still significant differences. These differences become even more apparent at the extremes, such as at high levels of competition. Thus my statements using the words 'on average' were conservative - we would expect these differences to become compounded in athletes, and indeed that's what we see. If you directly compare records of achievement in female sports versus male sports, you will very quickly come to understand why they are separated. In this way, separation of sports by sex is a feminist ideal; without this policy, women simply would not be present at the highest levels of competition.

[minteK917]

Sexual dimorphism is pretty minimal in humans, but there are still significant differences. These differences become even more apparent at the extremes, such as at high levels of competition. Thus my statements using the words 'on average' were conservative - we would expect these differences to become compounded in athletes, and indeed that's what we see. If you directly compare records of achievement in female sports versus male sports, you will very quickly come to understand why they are separated. In this way, separation of sports by sex is a feminist ideal; without this policy, women simply would not be present at the highest levels of competition.

The difference between the smartest human and the dumbest human are also genetically minimal, literally next to nothing. What differences us all, is actually all the minimal stuff.

[Manabomb]

Oh man, claiming everyone around you is a sexist pig when you are a woman. New and original content! Must be kewl and edgy 2016 memelords. If anything, she lost respect from me for saying stupid shit like this. Anyone woman would.

[Azadina]

Nono, see, the really really good women just don't compete because society tells them not to.

There's this evil global conspiracy against women in sports! Only Deleth the savior was able to see past all the deception, and save everyone!

However, atleast I want no part in being "saved".

[wowaccounttom]

mmmm i think it meant, "if i were a woman"...





dont know how other girls can do that to themselves

[Kryos]

Sexual dimorphism is pretty minimal in humans, but there are still significant differences. These differences become even more apparent at the extremes, such as at high levels of competition. Thus my statements using the words 'on average' were conservative - we would expect these differences to become compounded in athletes, and indeed that's what we see. If you directly compare records of achievement in female sports versus male sports, you will very quickly come to understand why they are separated. In this way, separation of sports by sex is a feminist ideal; without this policy, women simply would not be present at the highest levels of competition.

Let's take an example of a pretty straight forward sport. Weight lifting. It has many weight classes, males and female classes seperated. But 69 kg (152 lb) is present in both. So let's compare 62–69 kilograms (137–152 lb) olympic weighlifters.

Male is chinese Liao Hui, Female is chinese Liu Chunhon. So even from the same country and ethnic background (and maybe even doping program if you want to use that argument).

male:
Snatch: 166 kg
Clean & Jerk: 198 kg
Total: 359 kg

female:
Snatch: 128 kg
Clean & Jerk: 158 kg
Total: 286 kg

286kg total is less than the 0–56 kilograms (0–123 lb) total male record (307 kg).

Don't tell me that Liu Chunhon did not train as hard as possible.

But even looking at the male counterpart in the same weight class shows you the physical advantages of males:


If you watch the end of the spectrum the strongest woman in weight lifting was Zhou Lulu:

333 kg total.

Lasha Talakhadze the male counterpart

473 kg total.

Yeah, males and females are identical, it's just a social construct and not a biological fact that their bodys are different.

[minteK917]

Liu Chunhon is not trying hard enough sorry, society failed her.

[Deleted]

mmmm i think it meant, "if i were a woman"...

It's because blacks are only doing sports where the money is.

It's generally the black answer in those " Why isn't there black guys competing in the worlds strongest man"

So yeah, maybe in tennis the black man is the strongest, against white female, for the money, because there is no money to take in the tennisman division.

I think my post concerning Chess, and the need for a female division is still the better example for this thread.

[Deleted]

This is trivial, she is not the best tennis player, she would have gotten destroyed by any of the first 200 or men.

As such she cannot be called the greatest.

Her average serving speeds and stroke speeds rank within the top 30 of ATP males, although that was back in 2015.
(Also she's not the only female that ranks there, there's 6 others of them that serve harder, hit harder than the average ATP player).

She got more than enough speed and power to handle them, the problem is more the fact that the male and female tennis is very different. Women go for broke on every shot, thus it generally ends into an error or a winner very early on into the rally. Whereas the men play it safe and play long rallies to make sure the opponent doesn't recover between points and slowly his energy gets drained. So yes she would lose, but not because she couldn't handle them, but more because of the fact that she is not prepared to have those constant 20-30 shot rallies.

The thing her article was mainly about is the fact that she, as a multiple grand slam winner, is paid less by any sponsor than a male with nearly similar results. Although the gap has gotten smaller with some sponsors and some even putting her equal to males, there's a lot of young female athletes who don't even get a 3rd of what their male counterparts would be getting.

I think Nike is one of the only companies that has paid their female athletes in the proximity of their male athletes, there is however still around a 10% gap between both genders. But fair enough, tennis is one of the exemplary sports where the joined sex events pay both of their sexes equally, though the appearance fees on the male side are still a bit higher.

-

And yes she is the best tennis player in the world. Why?

Graf was seen as the best tennis player of all time (both sexes) because :

1. 22 Slams, Serena tied her in Wimbledon.
2. 186 consecutive weeks at rank 1, Serena tied her in September.

Those two were the main criteria of why Graf was the G.O.A.T. and it didn't matter whether she could beat men or not, she beat them at the grand slam title count and in tennis, that's the criteria which dictates who is the greatest or not.

I expect her to win around 2-3 more slams before she retires and that record is going to stand for decades, there is nobody on the ATP nor WTA side that will ever be as dominant over such a long stretch, than Serena Williams.

[Mad_Murdock]

"On average" is not a good position to argue from when talking about high end athletes. It also ignores that engaging in certain activities will actually see a rise in testosterone thus discouraging girls and keeping them from engaging in such activities will actually help foster such differences or at least make them worse. You have athletes such as Caster Semenya whom people are trying to exclude from competing based on a similar argumentation despite her being a woman, which isn't even accounting for intersex or other situations.

I'm guessing you've never gone to a gym where the focus on weight training? Go look at the world power lifting records. I guess your arguments are going to be that women don't do the amount of drugs that men do or that women are so shunned from power lifiting that the greatest in the world have never even tried.

I'm all for women in the various fields, but it's not inherent sexism that causes us to have a Boy and Girls league. And since I'm a full on progessive thinking kinda guy, I fully support both fields being merged into one. But I guarantee that it will be overwhelmingly the women who would oppose the merger more than the men.

[Snorkles]

I've not read the last 8 pages but surely given how many Grand Slams she's won it's not that big a stretch to see her as one of the greatest tennis places going? Andy Murray won what, 3? And everyone's sucking his dick about how great he is.

[Kryos]

Her average serving speeds and stroke speeds rank within the top 30 of ATP males, although that was back in 2015.
(Also she's not the only female that ranks there, there's 6 others of them that serve harder, hit harder than the average ATP player).

She got more than enough speed and power to handle them, the problem is more the fact that the male and female tennis is very different. Women go for broke on every shot, thus it generally ends into an error or a winner very early on into the rally. Whereas the men play it safe and play long rallies to make sure the opponent doesn't recover between points and slowly his energy gets drained. So yes she would lose, but not because she couldn't handle them, but more because of the fact that she is not prepared to have those constant 20-30 shot rallies.

The thing her article was mainly about is the fact that she, as a multiple grand slam winner, is paid less by any sponsor than a male with nearly similar results. Although the gap has gotten smaller with some sponsors and some even putting her equal to males, there's a lot of young female athletes who don't even get a 3rd of what their male counterparts would be getting.

I think Nike is one of the only companies that has paid their female athletes in the proximity of their male athletes, there is however still around a 10% gap between both genders. But fair enough, tennis is one of the exemplary sports where the joined sex events pay both of their sexes equally, though the appearance fees on the male side are still a bit higher.

Because female sports is not about the world best human in that sport, it's about the world best female in that sport. That's why is has less viewer, generates less advertising money, is worth less -> less money for the players. It's simple math based on the demand for female sports.

UK (BBC)
Wimbledon men’s final (BBC) – 9.2m viewers
Wimbledon ladies’ final (BBC) – 4.3m viewers


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/21/novak-...#ixzz4UA2GWWNP