7.1.5 any chance Unholy will pass Frost?

[NatePsy]

I'm Unholy and always have been. Way I see it is unless you're doing bleeding edge top 10 Mythic raiding, there's really no need to min-max to the extreme. Stick to what you enjoy, not what nets you the most dps.

In most Mythic+ dungeons I'm at the top of the meters, pretty nice contests with Havoc DH's sometimes.

[Protean]

I'm an almost purely PvE player. All of my theorycrafting is based on raid style encounters.

Bold part implies that you can do most of the build's damage, aside from aas, pet, and fs, at a 30y range. You never WANT to be at 30y, but it is a strength that no other melee spec has. Blighted rune weapon will outright contribute more damage than PP in the majority of situations now. It being melee range is irrelevant, as UH is a melee spec, not a ranged one, despite its ranged abilities and affinity for high add movement combat. You never want to be at range, you want to be smacking the boss to proc fallen crusader, spend excess runes, and build wounds. You can swap to mob spawns at 30 yard range and do solid damage while running at them to melee.

Bracers will likely be hot dogshit with this build. Even pre-nerf i thought that they wouldn't play well with this build. They force festering strikes, which take runes away from CS, lowering shadow damage contribution, and lowering the value of mastery. I believe that bracers will have their own build. Likely haste>mastery with an altered talent setup. I haven't ran numbers, nor have I played with builds for bracers. Bracers frontload a ton of damage and reduce scaling by a lot. I believe that the 7.1.5 death and decay/defile helmet will be BiS for this particular build by far. Defile, its buff specifically, is insane. The spell does rune effecient ST damage, amazing aoe, and gives you up to 2000 bonus mastery, The more and longer that buff can be up, the better. I think proper usage of helmet might give 100% uptime of 10 stacks of defile buff (2k bonus mastery), although i havent ran numbers. Regardless, helmet+defile is nuts. Shoulders are also really solid, and that's been the primary focus of the UH community, you'll find a lot of info on them.

I think UH is supposed to be the kind of melee spellcaster spec, weaving dark magic and brutal melee swings, I dont think they'll turn it into a core ranged spec.

- - - Updated - - -



'normal' unholy won't be viable after 7.1.5, defile necro claws build will be the best dk dps spec. I say go for it, get the practice in for when it goes live. I'm currently pulling about 380k ST in frost, and 320k in this new build, but the UH mastery build is getting absolutely massive buffs. It's not viable now, but 7.1.5 is coming out next tuesday or the week after, once that rolls around, this build takes off. Unless there's nerfs, which I doubt.

I think building for mastery>crit=haste is a smart idea, my friend.

Please make a new thread, with all the important info. I would love to see a more focused discussion about the new shadow build.

Could include:

Info you posted in this thread
Opener
extra value of special items or enchants, like the ring with on-use shadow damage.
Any sweet spots for stats?

- - - Updated - - -

DK's class community is the second worst in the game, only warlock is worse. I'm a moderately high end DK, 75th-95th in mythic parsing with no decent throughput legendary (necrofantasia and prydaz), the discord has helped me exactly 0. All of my rotation, spell usage, stat values, etc have been done by myself. When frost was buffed above UH in 7.1, there weren't any resources on frost, the superior spec, in weeks. Hell, the Frost simcraft profile was outright broken for a full month. A lot of the information you'll find on the discord is incredibly incomplete as well, with no analysis or in depth detail. Run your own numbers or you have 0 chance of being competitive.

I only say warlock is worse because so many of them are unwilling to play their class properly, and then claim it's blizzard's fault. IE, the idiots who exclusively play a single spec, when locks have some 7 niche viable builds across all specs, many of which hold the same stat priorities, which the warlock is able to swap to to adapt to the encounter.

My theory is that most theorycrafting is done by the top players, who feel like sharing.

When DK turned out to be less than stellar, most of the top players within the class quickly migrated to other classes.

[Hunaxor]

Hi, nice talk about the changes, but do you have any numbers or evidence or is it just gut feeling? Don't want to sound rude but claims like this should be supported be some evidence. Anyways looking forward to more focused build in Nh. I am already rocking 77 mastery, 25 critical and 20 haste anyways with bracers. What lvl of mastery would you suggest for the patch?

[Deleted]

@Shadowman 747
The "death march" Legendary will make UH competitive in M+.
I would not be surprised if CS-UH (+death march) will be above Frost when it comes to AoE-Burst (without Drake).
Single-Target remains to be seen, but I think that certain BoS-Builds will be noticeably above CS-UH.
Frost is the better "vanilla" performer, UH needs certain Legendary's to catch up.

[Shadowman 747]

Sounds good man, appreciate the help. Re-read most of what you explained and had a few questions.

"Completely different playstyle than castigator UH, as most of your damage is CS and DC. Festering Strike is never used outside of wound building and at above 3 runes."

What you said about FS being subpar due to it being physical damage makes sense. I'm curious where you fit it in? It sounds like your goal is to BRW for wounds which fuel your CS.

Is FS just to aid in getting a quick stack for apoc?
Do you generally just use it as an opener to assist a quick stack for the normal DC/CS rotation?

I use it in my core rotation when I need to bank for Apoc, if I am at 0 wounds, or if I'm short on RP for a death coil (and don't have necrosis up, as well as below 8 wounds). In my opener, I usually use it twice, along with BRW to hit 6 wounds to max apoc with. FS is overall damage efficient, but the physical portion drags the spell's value way down. Like down in the dirt down. BRW gives free wound, which frees up runes to be used on CS.

U have not played warlock.
Warlock is just not too fun to play and MEDIOCRE DPS.

Nah, I extensively tested each class on the 7.0 PTR during the prepatch, and I follow warcraftlogs rankings very closely, I understand each dps spec and how they play. Warlock as a whole is a jack of all trades dps. They will be upper middle of the pack in literally every situation, because they have a build for literally every situation. They will never be the BEST at anything, but they will never be bad at any encounter. The warlock's strength is in it's multi-spec viability. There is a build, on one of three specs, that slots into the encounter you're doing perfectly. A lot of the warlock complaints are nitpicks from one trick ponies who refuse to play specs outside of their main spec. A lot of warlocks are complaining about a lack of utility, mobility, or defensives, when they actually have a lot more of those than the majority of specs. Each warlock spec is a bit on the underwhelming side, but you don't bring a warlock for demo, or destro, or aff, you bring a warlock to flex dps.

[Deleted]

I'm Unholy and always have been. Way I see it is unless you're doing bleeding edge top 10 Mythic raiding, there's really no need to min-max to the extreme. Stick to what you enjoy, not what nets you the most dps.

In most Mythic+ dungeons I'm at the top of the meters, pretty nice contests with Havoc DH's sometimes.

Stick to what you enjoy, not what nets you the most dps. say that when youre wiping on enrage of M guarm or ursoc as example.

[Shadowman 747]

Hi, nice talk about the changes, but do you have any numbers or evidence or is it just gut feeling? Don't want to sound rude but claims like this should be supported be some evidence. Anyways looking forward to more focused build in Nh. I am already rocking 77 mastery, 25 critical and 20 haste anyways with bracers. What lvl of mastery would you suggest for the patch?

Personally, it's a mix between PTR testing, educated guesses, and rough math. I don't have all the information available, but everything I'm saying has been tested, if not number crunched. This build scales, which is castigator UH's problem, and deals with mechanics better than Frost could ever dream of. The 4piece bonus is incredibly strong, stronger than frost's. Right now, everything about DK is up in the air, there is no reliable way to get 100% data. Even if we had accurate sims, a lot of the build's strength lies in utility, 2x grip, 30y range on most damage spells, burst aoe potential, 3 major defensive spells+health pot, etc.

Please make a new thread, with all the important info. I would love to see a more focused discussion about the new shadow build.

Could include:

Info you posted in this thread
Opener
extra value of special items or enchants, like the ring with on-use shadow damage.
Any sweet spots for stats?

- - - Updated - - -



My theory is that most theorycrafting is done by the top players, who feel like sharing.

When DK turned out to be less than stellar, most of the top players within the class quickly migrated to other classes.

Yeah, i think i'll make a thread in the next day or two. I'm a firm believer of simming yourself for stat weights, and I believe that haste and crit will be roughly equal, so simming will be huge. But I'll make a little something on rotation, build, theory, and notable gear pieces. Typically str>mast>all will be where its at, but i'll go in depth later. Shadow damage ring is god tier for the record, the active scales on mastery, but requires smart usage, as fucking it up will result in no usage for the rest of the fight.

I was actually just PMing someone saying the exact same thing about theorycrafters. There are few truly cutting edge DKs right now.

@Shadowman 747
The "death march" Legendary will make UH competitive in M+.
I would not be surprised if CS-UH (+death march) will be above Frost when it comes to AoE-Burst (without Drake).
Single-Target remains to be seen, but I think that certain BoS-Builds will be noticeably above CS-UH.
Frost is the better "vanilla" performer, UH needs certain Legendary's to catch up.

Death March, I strongly believe will be BiS in all situations with this build. Defile is a god tier spell, doing very good damage, even in ST, generating massive aoe damage, and applying a huge mast buff. More Defiles is a huge amount more damage.

I disagree on your assessment between f and uh. UH offers miles better utility, defensive capability, and isn't hindered by low mobility, as most spells are 30y range. In any situation where f and this new uh build are even close in dps, UH is going to be better 100% of the time.

[seussiii]

Yeah, i think i'll make a thread in the next day or two. I'm a firm believer of simming yourself for stat weights, and I believe that haste and crit will be roughly equal, so simming will be huge. But I'll make a little something on rotation, build, theory, and notable gear pieces. Typically str>mast>all will be where its at, but i'll go in depth later. Shadow damage ring is god tier for the record, the active scales on mastery, but requires smart usage, as fucking it up will result in no usage for the rest of the fight.

nice, glad to hear it.

[Reinholder]

I'm Unholy and always have been. Way I see it is unless you're doing bleeding edge top 10 Mythic raiding, there's really no need to min-max to the extreme. Stick to what you enjoy, not what nets you the most dps.

Not sure why people respond with stuff like this, is neither good or useful advice. Whether you're top 10 or not if you're doing any progression with a guild you're going to want to be bringing as much dps to the table as you can, otherwise you're just making life harder for your guild. I wouldn't want to be that guy in guild that sits there playing a spec that they know is the lower of the two options when my guild is wiping to enrage timers.



Back on topic I am interested in seeing how a CS build goes. When the legion changes were announced I was excited at the prospect of dealing a decent amount of damage while out of else range, kind of made the terrible mobility options a little easier to swallow. Wondering if there will be a make or break legendary for a CS build that boosts its viability. Hopefully nothing to the extent to which the bracers are required for uh currently.

[Raiz]

Not sure why people respond with stuff like this, is neither good or useful advice. Whether you're top 10 or not if you're doing any progression with a guild you're going to want to be bringing as much dps to the table as you can, otherwise you're just making life harder for your guild. I wouldn't want to be that guy in guild that sits there playing a spec that they know is the lower of the two options when my guild is wiping to enrage timers.

Let's just say, a mix of both alright ? There's no point taking a spec you don't enjoy playing. And tbh they're giving good advices because the difference in DPS could easily be corrected by human's tendency of making errors. And guess what ? You could perfectly be doing less DPS with the "best" spec than the spec you enjoy the most.

[Rixarius]

There is a reason to swap specs still even if you aren't top 20, top 500, or even top 3000. Some people just like to play whatever helps the guild most, which means most damage in our case. And with how high AK is right now, it's really easy to swap.

I do hope UH does well in Nighthold, because it's my preferred spec. I think realistically we're gonna need more than even 6% damage across the board though.

[Schizoide]

Well you still need 3 relics for your alt weapon. But yeah, it's much easier to get 35 points in your alt artifacts now.

[Elerubard]

And it's easier, for me it was at least, to get relics for frost as well. Nythendra gives frost and shadow relics with good traits.

[Piz813]

I'm Unholy and always have been. Way I see it is unless you're doing bleeding edge top 10 Mythic raiding, there's really no need to min-max to the extreme. Stick to what you enjoy, not what nets you the most dps.

In most Mythic+ dungeons I'm at the top of the meters, pretty nice contests with Havoc DH's sometimes.

Been preaching this since launch. Play the spec YOU ENJOY the most and you'll excel. You can be top Dawg in your personal raid with practice and knowledge of the encounter!
Every 5 seconds someone pops in here and discord and asks which is better...
From some of the data out on the UH threads here it looks like they will be pretty close on most night hold fights. So it boils down to do you like zombies or frost dragons?

The alternative is play the spec you have bracers for lol.

[Wingerie]

Been preaching this since launch. Play the spec YOU ENJOY the most and you'll excel. You can be top Dawg in your personal raid with practice and knowledge of the encounter!
Every 5 seconds someone pops in here and discord and asks which is better...
From some of the data out on the UH threads here it looks like they will be pretty close on most night hold fights. So it boils down to do you like zombies or frost dragons?

The alternative is play the spec you have bracers for lol.

Problem is, while I prefer Unholy, I don't want to hinder my guild. Sometimes 30k dps really matter. I think there are many other people with the same mentality.

[Bobular]

A lot of this "play what you like stuff" well, i like to play the higher dps spec, like many. And will that still be frost in 7.1.5?

[Schizoide]

Nobody can answer that question until 2 weeks into 7.1.5, when we have real raid parses. All we can say right now is it looks like they will be much closer than in 7.1.

[Wolfman31]

The real problem with Legion as a whole is certain classes, specs, and builds are garbage unless you have a specific legendary set-up, but the content isn't fun enough to keep grinding like a wanna-be Diablo MMO. My future with this expansion is going to be short if this continues to be the trend in 7.2. What does it matter which is better Unholy or Frost when my only legendarys are Sephuz's Sucky Secret and the AMS cloak? Fuck my luck!

[Deleted]

The real problem with Legion as a whole is certain classes, specs, and builds are garbage unless you have a specific legendary set-up, but the content isn't fun enough to keep grinding like a wanna-be Diablo MMO. My future with this expansion is going to be short if this continues to be the trend in 7.2. What does it matter which is better Unholy or Frost when my only legendarys are Sephuz's Sucky Secret and the AMS cloak? Fuck my luck!

One gazillion internets for this post.

You poor soul. I p&#s on you as i have the same bellendgendaries as you ... Plus... I have the tanking neck and the move like a normal dps boots.

We are both shafted whatever we choose and we have shit bellendgendaries.

I predict we will both roll the bracers in the week before the patch hits.

But not the hat

Maxweii will roll it. My spider sense is tingling.

[Thadorix]

The real problem with Legion as a whole is certain classes, specs, and builds are garbage unless you have a specific legendary set-up, but the content isn't fun enough to keep grinding like a wanna-be Diablo MMO. My future with this expansion is going to be short if this continues to be the trend in 7.2. What does it matter which is better Unholy or Frost when my only legendarys are Sephuz's Sucky Secret and the AMS cloak? Fuck my luck!

dude bro the AMS cloak is soooooooo good. not for damge but from a utility perspective its amazing. and Sephuz's is actually super good if you can get it to proc. on PTR right now death grip procs it even if the target is immune. so DK's can proc it literally on CD.