Watcher knew about Legion issues, did nothing about it

[Deleted]

My biggest gripe with these Bis legendaries dosnt come from a power increase pov, but tge fact that some of them alters your rotation in such a way that the specc might be more fun and engaging to play, the ring of DH makes your less resources starves so it gives less down time which some people enjoy, the warrior ring gives you back something that was baseline for arms before which i know i personally enjoyed Alot. To me id much rather have a booring legendary that increases people damage by a flat modifier than a legendary that slightly or greatly alters the specc.

It was much the same with the HFC tier sets my MM hunter felt alot snoother with instant aimed shots because this is ehat i was used to from previously.

[Deleted]

My biggest gripe with these Bis legendaries dosnt come from a power increase pov, but tge fact that some of them alters your rotation in such a way that the specc might be more fun and engaging to play, the ring of DH makes your less resources starves so it gives less down time which some people enjoy, the warrior ring gives you back something that was baseline for arms before which i know i personally enjoyed Alot. To me id much rather have a booring legendary that increases people damage by a flat modifier than a legendary that slightly or greatly alters the specc.

It was much the same with the HFC tier sets my MM hunter felt alot snoother with instant aimed shots because this is ehat i was used to from previously.

This is actually a very valid and reasonable feedback (and well presented!) and I agree - effects that change your playstyle should really become baseline.

[Saiona]

We're 7/7 m and I've never sat anyone based on their legendaries. That's all made up bullshit. Maybe a bleeding edge guild sat people on helya for that reason but my condolences for those few few people

[psyquest]

Uh, ok, sure, you're fucking hardcore man.

I dont think you can compare your outlook of the game (normal raid, leveling) with the feedback of someone that play on mythic raiding at the most competitive.

Sure for a casual he/she does not care about the RNG of legendaries. Suffice to say that for a casual even getting an 880 to proc is excitement enough.

This difference in play and outlook should not be a reason or an excuse for you to denigrate or anyhow diminish the explanation as to why hardcore players dislike the current legendary system.

Sure you can disagree with it since it does not concern you at all,being casual and what not, but it does not mean that the reason in invalid.

[Deleted]

In what context? Do you mean DH's and DK's are unable to complete 100-110 leveling without them? They're unable to do dungeons? They're somehow detriment to their Normal Raid? We're talking about a world outside the mythic 5% bubble after all. I don't see them being unviable without the legendaries. Certainly they become much better with them, but from a standpoint of a heroic raid leader, what does it really matter? There are thousand other things to improve the overall raid performance - whether the DK has the legendary or a not, doesn't really affect the raid success very much.

The fact you can't understand this simple notion shows you've never done progression raiding in your life. It has nothing to do with the "5% mythic bubble". Imagine you are a raid leader at any level and you are wiping on a boss. You have to chose the best setup possible. Let's assume you got 2 equally skilled guys, one with the BiS legendary and one with the worst one. Which one do you chose?

If you think that only happens at "the very top guilds" you're either delusional or miss-informed. Stop throwing around words like "viable" and "detriment" when you don't know what they mean in a raiding environment. Raiding has always been about finding the path of least resistance to overcome a challenge.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Let us get this on the table. The legendary system is bad. They knew it would be bad. Feedback said it was going to be bad. From the start it was going to be bad. For some reason super casual people fought hardcore for it because they thought it was going to be their ticket to BiS gear and poop on raiders for some stupid reason.

But what Watcher said in the QAs really was the truth. The problem was some legendaries were just super powerful output changers while most of them were basiclly stat sticks with utility. So people that got those outliners that were proformance boosting got a big edge. How they are changing everything is a huge step in the right direction.

So in conclusion while I do agree the system is shit. That they should have done something sooner (aka alpha/beta) the fact is I do see them taking the correct steps. I am willing to see where the chips land after this and if its a major shift towards correcting the problem then I will be WAY ok with it. I doubt it will be a 100% fix because you are always going to have some items that are better than others and bitches will be bitches in the playerbase. But a big step in the right direction is all I ask.

[Bumbac]

What is the point of making this thread exactly? To throw shit on developers? Do you think OP wil make a positive change for the game by making this?
Be the change you wanna see in wow and stop making shitposts.

[Eon Drache]

People get worked up if you dont use 375 food over 300 food. A difference so small that it is literally retarded unless you're in a top 10 guild. But God forbid you're not using that 375 food for that .2% dps boost.

[Deleted]

I dont think you can compare your outlook of the game (normal raid, leveling) with the feedback of someone that play on mythic raiding at the most competitive.

Yeah, that was the whole point.
It's a huge thing for someone in the 5% mythic bubble. But for the rest of the 95% it's really not.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact you can't understand this simple notion shows you've never done progression raiding in your life. It has nothing to do with the "5% mythic bubble". Imagine you are a raid leader at any level and you are wiping on a boss. You have to chose the best setup possible. Let's assume you got 2 equally skilled guys, one with the BiS legendary and one with the worst one. Which one do you chose?

If you think that only happens at "the very top guilds" you're either delusional or miss-informed. Stop throwing around words like "viable" and "detriment" when you don't know what they mean in a raiding environment. Raiding has always been about finding the path of least resistance to overcome a challenge.

Don't assume what I've done and haven't done, please. It has nothing to do with the argument.
Your use-case where you have two equally skilled people applying is hypotechnical at best. Progression recruitment, especially at the top end really does not work like that.

You would do well to read the whole thread before trying to start insulting others.

We're talking about why Blizzard didn't do anything about the legendary system, if they got feedback/knew it was "bad".
I'm saying it's deliberate, because they know it's only "bad" for the people in the mythic progression bubble. And those people are outliers.

The rest - the 95% of the players who never do any mythic raiding at all - are largely happy about it or it really doesn't matter at all.

[Myztikrice]

I definitely hope this is sarcasm. I feel like it is.

Even the top guilds in the world said they didn't bench anyone due to bad legendaries. I've never seen a single pug even require a legendary and most of the top US 20 guilds I've seen recruit don't require one either. They don't even ask how many you've got.

Considering the top guild didn't even sub people out because of legendaries, Any person that missed out on raiding was either a bad player or only tried to raid with bad players.

They switched mains to those that got their BIS legendaries. They sat their classes themselves.

[Shirofune]

In what context? Do you mean DH's and DK's are unable to complete 100-110 leveling without them? They're unable to do dungeons? They're somehow detriment to their Normal Raid? We're talking about a world outside the mythic 5% bubble after all. I don't see them being unviable without the legendaries. Certainly they become much better with them, but from a standpoint of a heroic raid leader, what does it really matter? There are thousand other things to improve the overall raid performance - whether the DK has the legendary or a not, doesn't really affect the raid success very much.



Well I don't remember that particular "promise". But as we all know, things they say in Blizzcon aren't promises (remember the “GC Promised Me A Pony”?), it's just a snapshot of where they are and what they're thinking at that particular moment. Bottom line - we asked for more "vanilla"-like system. We got it.



Uh, ok, sure, you're fucking hardcore man.

But if you're so "determined", then you've decided to grind for them. So how is that a problem that Blizzard should solve? It doesn't even sound like a problem, you seem proud of 'doing more M+ than I've ever done in my life'. That's cool, keep grinding them.

If you've decided to be the crème de la crop, then go for it man, the more power to you. But again, why are you complaining?
If you don't like it or if you think it's "too much" then ease up or don't do it?

I don't really see why individual player decisions to grind stuff should somehow be Blizzard's problem to solve.

For DHs for instance, having the ring means being fury starved or not. Aside from the damage boost (which is huge) the QoL changes in the rotation are night and day. I'm a Mythic raider and at least, in the current version of the game, that ring means something between 50-60k DPS for my class. We're talking about 450k~ DPS ST up to 500k. It is huge. And I'm talking about everything. The same bonus applies to normal raiding unless the player behind the character sucks, which wouldn't matter anyway 'cause he will suck no matter the gear he/she has.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but personal performance matters, specially in bosses like Guarm pre-nerf, where DPS matters a lot. Of course you're going to look for ways to increase it. Of course it's going to suck if the only way to do it is getting an orange item.

This is their particular promise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMCF...tu.be&t=53m54s

To the last part of your topic, I don't know if you're a troll or not anymore. I will try again anyway.

I would grind my way through the system IF the system was fair. It is NOT. Everytime you get a legendary, the chance to get the next roughly DOUBLES. That means if you fail getting your BiS legendaries withing the first 4, your chances to get them plummet into the ground, instead of increasing as one would think since the loot table lowers. If you somehow fail to see how a system that punishes the guy that farms is fair, then I don't know what to do anymore.

[Myztikrice]

People get worked up if you dont use 375 food over 300 food. A difference so small that it is literally retarded unless you're in a top 10 guild. But God forbid you're not using that 375 food for that .2% dps boost.

.2% dps boost is 2.8% dps for your raid group which can be the difference between a phase push (cenarius) or wipe (guarm). I know you're trying to be smart but actually say something smart when you do it next time.

[Shirofune]

Let us get this on the table. The legendary system is bad. They knew it would be bad. Feedback said it was going to be bad. From the start it was going to be bad. For some reason super casual people fought hardcore for it because they thought it was going to be their ticket to BiS gear and poop on raiders for some stupid reason.

But what Watcher said in the QAs really was the truth. The problem was some legendaries were just super powerful output changers while most of them were basiclly stat sticks with utility. So people that got those outliners that were proformance boosting got a big edge. How they are changing everything is a huge step in the right direction.

So in conclusion while I do agree the system is shit. That they should have done something sooner (aka alpha/beta) the fact is I do see them taking the correct steps. I am willing to see where the chips land after this and if its a major shift towards correcting the problem then I will be WAY ok with it. I doubt it will be a 100% fix because you are always going to have some items that are better than others and bitches will be bitches in the playerbase. But a big step in the right direction is all I ask.

The trouble is, no matter how much they nerf the legendaries, BiS will still exist. The only solution is deleting all performance enhancement legendaries and only remain utility ones (Lock portal legendary, Haste-speed boots for plates, etc).

Only then people won't care which one they get, 'cause all of them add literally nothing to the character progression.

But, as it stands, it's going to matter, no matter how much they nerf them.

[micwini]

They should have just made one for each spec and be done with it. This way, when you get the legendary, it's always the best.

[kamuimac]

I don't need to get benched to feel shitty about being the last of my class on the DPS meter because I got the shittiest legendaries.

"You probably suck and would be last anyways" - very mature argument. No I don't. I'm very very well within the variance of what DPS simcraft tells me to do with my gear.

well you should specify in which variance - the 35th one or 90th percentiles .

either way this problem is non existen for anyone besides 0,01% of most hardcore playerbase - majoirty doesnt give a single f... besides "few dozens" whiners here on forums.

- - - Updated - - -

People get worked up if you dont use 375 food over 300 food. A difference so small that it is literally retarded unless you're in a top 10 guild. But God forbid you're not using that 375 food for that .2% dps boost.

and then they are people who dont use food , dont use pots , maybe use flask and clear hc raids without and problem and dont give flying f... about mythic raids - and are perfeckly happy with the system

mythic raiding participation is negligible in bigger picture - tuning anything around it end up with garbage expansion like wod. i have a feeling that blizzard is really feed up with mythic crybabies and thus such comments like from Lore.

[Deleted]

For DHs for instance, having the ring means being fury starved or not. Aside from the damage boost (which is huge) the QoL changes in the rotation are night and day.

You're right. Effects that change the playstyle of the spec shouldn't be in the legendaries. That is detrimental design. But the feedback to devs should concern that - the 'fun and feel' of the spec playstyle - now it's mixed in constant whining about 'losing raidspots due to not having BiS'.

I'm a Mythic raider and at least, in the current version of the game, that ring means something between 50-60k DPS for my class. We're talking about 450k~ DPS ST up to 500k. It is huge. And I'm talking about everything. The same bonus applies to normal raiding unless the player behind the character sucks, which wouldn't matter anyway 'cause he will suck no matter the gear he/she has.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but personal performance matters, specially in bosses like Guarm pre-nerf, where DPS matters a lot. Of course you're going to look for ways to increase it. Of course it's going to suck if the only way to do it is getting an orange item.

You're not bursting any bubbles.
You're a mythic raider. You are part of the 5% outlier crowd where this potentially matters and your playstyle *demands* you to min/max and get better. I get it, I've been in "top guild" up to midway through EN progression. But for people who are not and never raid mythics, i.e. the majority, 50-60K more DPS on Guarm heroic just doesn't really change the outcome of that fight very drastically. You can kill it with the legendary or without it. The "need" for it dissipates even further if you look at Guram Normal. Or Guarm in LFR.

I get it. Mythic players must minmax. And it sucks to be you, playing in the current system. Many top players have voiced their discontent (Treckie's thread with Lore on twitter yesteday was the latest of long complaints).

It is one of the main reasons I stopped and stepped down from Mythic progression. I'm much happier with Legion now that I don't have to do endless Maw runs.

I would grind my way through the system IF the system was fair. It is NOT. Everytime you get a legendary, the chance to get the next roughly DOUBLES. That means if you fail getting your BiS legendaries withing the first 4, your chances to get them plummet into the ground, instead of increasing as one would think since the loot table lowers. If you somehow fail to see how a system that punishes the guy that farms is fair, then I don't know what to do anymore.

Yes, you must grind it endlessly. If you want it.
But that's a choice you can make. Anecdotally I thought it fucking sucked and stepped down from progression raiding. At that point (we were at Cenarius) I had 3 legendaries - and I just couldn't make myself do any more Maw keystones. And shortly after that, I lost the interest to signup for raids - because the social pressure is what it is - you must. If you don't you're not "dedicated" to your team.

I'll probably get back to progression raiding at next expac - depending on how it looks, but for now, I'm much happier rolling with the 95% 'casual' crowd than being constantly miserable Mythic progression raider.

It's a choice. Your choice.

[Deleted]

Makes me wonder how many dozens of people didn't get to raid because they had the wrong legendary.

I'm not raiding by my own choice and I have 3 good legendaries.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The trouble is, no matter how much they nerf the legendaries, BiS will still exist. The only solution is deleting all performance enhancement legendaries and only remain utility ones (Lock portal legendary, Haste-speed boots for plates, etc).

Only then people won't care which one they get, 'cause all of them add literally nothing to the character progression.

But, as it stands, it's going to matter, no matter how much they nerf them.

I don't have a problem with some being better than others. To expect absolute equality across them all is to really want a very boring ass system that truth be told has never existed. Luck of the draw has always existed. I mean did some guy get a mythic war-forged socketed BiS weapon in HFC have gear that would net a pretty serious advantage? Yes, a clear one. It can even be drawn back to classic days with people that got certain trinkets that were extremely rare drops (2-3 items drop from a loot table of 15 items to gear 40 man raids).

The problem lies in when people have certain items and it automatically makes them 20-30% better. When that drops to like 3-6% it falls within the margin of a better player can still beat a player that just mashes one key in some gnome sequencer macro for example.

Like I said in the VERY post you quoted I know for a fact it will not be a 100% fix. But what matters is that they take a big step in the right direction. I mean I like playing WoW beyond my damage chart. If you don't than this might be a reason you quit or something. But I will still be around as long as it isn't as totally fucked as it currently is and from what I have seen that is how it is going to be.

[kamuimac]

Let us get this on the table. The legendary system is bad. .

lets get it on the table . its bad in your opinion - one that is not shared by more then 500 people on this forum.

for majority of other players the legendary system in legion is good.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, you must grind it endlessly. If you want it.
But that's a choice you can make. Anecdotally I thought it fucking sucked and stepped down from progression raiding. At that point (we were at Cenarius) I had 3 legendaries - and I just couldn't make myself do any more Maw keystones. And shortly after that, I lost the interest to signup for raids - because the social pressure is what it is - you must. If you don't you're not "dedicated" to your team.

did even 1 person in your guild told you to grind ? or the whole problem was in your head only ?

dont raid with douchebags and problems liek this would be non existent.

[Deleted]

Blizzard *had* quality, but now it seems they have no QA at all. I mean bugs are not fixed even after 2 years (tot video before tortos, panda blue gem goes to enchanting bag), jc bag does not working with legion gems, specs are badly undertuned, etc.

Blizzard's QA team is much bigger than 2-3 years ago, but also has less quality/control. Since QA is such a starting position at Blizzard, and your point is to advance, you're never going to disagree with a developer or insist something has to be changed (specially not a class/spec/design/etc).
Additionally, many of the game bugs you see today are reported to devs(including effects, how to reproduce them, etc), but there's no rush to fix bugs instead of working on new stuff(7.2/new expansion/etc).

Regarding the original issue with the legendaries - many of them were nerfed by at least 50% after their original implementation anyway. The original design was that people would be happy to get a 895(/925 in Nighthold) item drop, whichever it was so it wouldn't be that much of a problem. It wasn't until Mythic+ rewards were implemented(specially when 1 chest dropped 5 items), that it became obvious people will max out really fast in most slots and this will be a problem.