Am I supposed to be taking ~35% more damage than the War/Pally tank?

[Raugnaut]

BrM takes smooth damage, I know, but is the price of taking smooth damage (which is about 25-35% more over all damage than the mitigation tanks) worth the smoothness on say a progression Guarm fight where healers have to heal the raid like crazy to keep up with the amount of damage coming in while trying to conserve their mana so they don't go OOM?

On Guarm, 25% more damage taken is equivalent to about 25M extra healing needed, that's a lot of extra mana that needs to be spent healing that BrM over say a Pally/War/Dru.

To be honest, that 25% more damage taken isn't really a problem, as its taken more smoothly, allowing healers to heal using their efficient heals (In my case, Rejuve, Lifebloom, with some polish from HT) to heal the BrM, saving them mana in the longer run. A DK requires a much more judicial use of Regrowth to "safely" keep up (Curse blizz for nerfing the shit out of DKs, used to, good DKs were also a pleasure to heal due to the powerful nature of their AM. Now? Not so much - At max, a DK can heal themselves for 60% of damage from a spike, which requires significant pooling of resources to do so. Pitiful.

[Saverem]

The off-tank actually takes less damage because he doesn't need to stand in flashing fangs but other than that it's indeed a decent fight to compare damage intake.

Wait, what? You don't have to take flashing fangs as OT? I always just stand right with the MT during Guarm. Am I supposed to move to its side before it does flashing fangs?

[GT4]

Wait, what? You don't have to take flashing fangs as OT? I always just stand right with the MT during Guarm. Am I supposed to move to its side before it does flashing fangs?

Depends on your strategy. Since they forced us to two tank it on mythic by increasing the multi-headed range to 30 yards, I simply tank the boss as if I was solo-tanking (turn right for most of the fight, only turn to raid for breath) and our second tank is standing just right to the position I turn Guarm to for breaths most of the fight. That way he's closer to me than our melees (left side of the boss) and our range DPS and he can act as a soaker for red debuffs. The only time he stands inside of me is when Guarm jumps (so he isn't kicked too far away from me) and after the charge before the first jump. That way I'm the only one in the raid taking flashing fangs (just checked our last log and there was indeed nobody else taking any damage from it).

In theory, you could also just move away during the cast but you have to pay attention that you'll still be the closest player to the main tank then.

[PinDrop]

I knew it would work now but I wasn't sure the orbs would be enough in lower gear. That was after the brewmaster buffs though, wasn't it?

As for the spears: The issue with taking spears isn't to survive them, it's to take as low damage as possible so the AoE doesn't become huge. Since it's magic damage, some other tanks should have stronger mitigation for it ready every time. Having said that, by now it wouldn't make much of a difference since P3 has become so short by now.

Just by the way, the poster was also claiming that another log showed a brewmaster taking less healing solo-tanking than most tanks do now dual-tanking. That's outlandish at best. He took 400k HPS from his healers compared to e.g. the 280k I took on our first kill in basically full DPS gear with 31 traits (he had 36 already in the log provided).

Cenarius spears are Physical. BrMs can mitigate 80-90% of those hits without even changing anything in their play, most other tanks have to pop a cooldown or get an external, or do some resource planning/pooling.

And how much did healing did your Guarm co-tank take? Did the both of you combined take less than 400k hps? That was sort of the point of that post, I think.

[stross01]

I´m not some delusional tank who thinks that i can judge the effort for the healers with some flawed logic like you guys. I´m playing healer on three different classes. Holy Priest, Holy Pala, Mistweaver. While yes as Pala i put a beacon on the tank and thats that. But that goes for every tank. Ever took the effort and compared the damage income with a Brewmaster with Ironbrew up against (lets say a Pala) with Shield of the Righteous up? No you didnt? Then do it and come back and tell me how SMOOTH the damage income of Brewmaster is.
And threw some hots on the tank? Like Renew as Priest or Renewing Mist as Mistweaver? If you think that is enough to keep a Brewmaster up you are terrible wrong. I would even say, if you think that is the case, you have some serious issues.

The healers I run with do it all the time. With ease. EASE.

If you're taking more than a small percentage of your health per stagger tick, you're not playing correctly. Your comparison couldn't be any more awful, though. ISB isn't active mitigation in the same way Shield of the Righteous is. ISB is 100% uptime. And yes, damage is SMOOTH with ISB. Much smoother than Shield.

If you aren't good at balancing your Stagger Budget™, you should probably seek an easier tank like guardian or warrior.

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They dont have the same uptime and i never said that. But tanks are not getting big hits all the time, most of the times it´s a special mechanic that does the most damage. It is possible to time shield of the righteous for those. And it´s not like other tanks are dropping to 50% every hit and Brewmasters are staying at 90%+ all the time. That is why i´m getting annoyed with "the damage income of Brewmasters is sooooo smooth". It´s simply not a big difference compared to Druids, Palas and even Warriors. Only DH´s and DK´s fall a bit off with that, but to compensate that they have insane self healing.
And Renewing Mist is a garbage hot? You sure you know about Mistweavers at all?

Melee is 99.9999999% of the damage you're going to take in a standard fight.

This point isn't even up for debate. You CANNOT disagree. It's supported by data. Empirical data.

Rejuv and Lifebloom outheal stagger in most M+ I do. Cenarian Ward + Rejuv + Lifebloom outheal even the thickest damage I take. Renewing Mist does not. SO comparatively, yes, it is garbage.

- - - Updated - - -

And that is only true on a few rare occasions. If you leave a Warrior, Paladin and Brewmaster alone for 10 seconds without some special cooldowns up, Brewmasters will take the most damage with the lowest selfheal/absorb. Why are people keep forgetting about that? That 10 second time that you set is BAD for Brewmasters. If you wanted to keep that "smooth" damage in mind you are completely off track. And as i said before, other tanks are not getting some crazy unpredictable hits in raid settings. If they do, they messed up. People are way off with their thinking that smooth damage is easier for healers when it´s actually way more damage at the end of the day. More damage = more healing needed. If you think more healing needed = less attention, well... And that hot argument is the same thing. If the Hots are enough to keep the Brewmaster from dying, that is true for the other tanks too under normal conditions. Yes in your mind dot damage = hot heal = good isnt entirely wrong. But that doesnt mean that it doesnt work out for the other tanks too. That smooth damage is only a excuse from bad Brewmasters who want to keep thinking that they are the best tanks.

What are you doing for 10 seconds where you're not healing?

If you're running out of mana in a non-cutting-edge mythic raiding scenario, you're probably not skilled enough for the instance you're in, negating the "more damage=more healing" thing. Most of the hots will end up as overhealing on other tanks, whereas almost none of the hot ends up as overheal on a brewmaster, further negating your theory.

Two things that may be skewing your judgement are the specs you're playing. Holy priest is genuinely awful and has no synergy with a brewmaster at all. Mistweaver is pretty garbo outside of a raid setting with Innervates flying everywhere and ultra bad in M+ unless you're just doing carries. As for holy paladin, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but it's gotta be something fairly substantial.

Could you post some logs of you healing some brewmasters? We can probably help them, and you, out.

[Raiz]

The healers I run with do it all the time. With ease. EASE.

That's what I'm trying to understand since when the thread started : let's assume for the sake of simplicity, there are no overheals and no purifies. Does that mean it takes less mana usage for "topping" the tank ?

If that's the case why wouldn't the other tank get the same benefit ? I mean, all the others tanks have (close to) 100% active mitigation uptime.

e.g : Blood dk, after taking let's say X damage that can be topped by mitigation (boneshield) + self heal (death strike) + hots (rejuv). On the other hand the monk, if he takes exactly the same damage but with no purifies, there's still 15-20% damage taken left to heal (because they don't have a boneshield). How is that "easier" for the healer ? All I can see is, it makes the healer's life easier to heal the other group members because they know the monk won't die as easily as the DK. But there's still this mana problem.

Unless I'm missing something ?

[Tanthalas]

BrMs are good in a raid environment, where even those shitty hots from holy priest and mistweaver add up to hots from druid and are enough to heal the monk tank.
It's another story in high mythic+ content for some healers – wish I could share the unforgettable experience as a disc priest of spamming 500k hit/1kk crit dark mendings into brm tank who ran out of brews to purify and being unable to make his HP go up while the rest of the party is also taking damage.

[Deleted]

It's another story in high mythic+ content for some healers

I think that's the point really. For higher m+ content you make dedicated setups according to affixes. My guild's mythic raider holy pala was swearing a lot during overflowing, while a pug drood said it was his easiest tank-heal-job so far. Restodroods go well with BMonks. "Some (other) healers" during some affixes just have it harder with us.

[keqe]

I knew it would work now but I wasn't sure the orbs would be enough in lower gear. That was after the brewmaster buffs though, wasn't it?

I pretty much tanked the drakes without taking heals until 4 drakes as brewmaster back in october. Possibly the first monk tank to do so. The holy paladin just shocked me if I happened to drop below 35% for some reason and spammed heals while I went for stack reset. Otherwise I handled myself.

Here is the log from it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0&type=healing

[Deleted]

I pretty much tanked the drakes without taking heals until 4 drakes as brewmaster back in october. Possibly the first monk tank to do so. The holy paladin just shocked me if I happened to drop below 35% for some reason and spammed heals while I went for stack reset. Otherwise I handled myself.

Here is the log from it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0&type=healing

You, sir, are not in line with the complainers/whiners/can't be done'rs in this forum. You must be doing something fundamentally wrong

[TeleriaX]

That's what I'm trying to understand since when the thread started : let's assume for the sake of simplicity, there are no overheals and no purifies. Does that mean it takes less mana usage for "topping" the tank ?

If that's the case why wouldn't the other tank get the same benefit ? I mean, all the others tanks have (close to) 100% active mitigation uptime.

e.g : Blood dk, after taking let's say X damage that can be topped by mitigation (boneshield) + self heal (death strike) + hots (rejuv). On the other hand the monk, if he takes exactly the same damage but with no purifies, there's still 15-20% damage taken left to heal (because they don't have a boneshield). How is that "easier" for the healer ? All I can see is, it makes the healer's life easier to heal the other group members because they know the monk won't die as easily as the DK. But there's still this mana problem.

Unless I'm missing something ?

They are thinking that healers can use their "mana cost effective heals" then. Which is off course bullshit in a raid setting most of the time because the "more mana effective heals" are mostly slower casts (you rarely use in raid) or something you try to use on cooldown anyways, so it´s a full in their mind thing trying to justify the more damage income.

[Deleted]

the "more mana effective heals" are mostly slower casts (you rarely use in raid)

Uuuk? I loved my main drood wrath-based healing in WoD (until it was removed). I love how I can stop healing as MW when it's not needed and go DPS some (to recover mana too) in my guild's "fun runs" (aka up to EN HC alts, casuals, etc. runs) with MW being my second OS. Granted I am not raiding mythic, but BM tanking M+'es, I think my healing experience is on the same level as yours (in Legion) as we seem to heal similar content, while at the same time having much more tanking experience. Having said that, your assumption (the one I bolded out in your statement) is so fundamentally wrong it hurts.

it´s a full in their mind thing trying to justify the more damage income

Ok. Discussion done on this topic. I get it. If you are trying to "win" an argument by throwing in "truths" and "assumptions" and topping them up with "accusations" here, then I'm sorry - it's pointless. Numerous people pointed out you are doing something wrong (by assuming wrong things or misunderstandings concepts) or have a flawed perception. It is hopeless.

[TeleriaX]

Uuuk? I loved my main drood wrath-based healing in WoD (until it was removed). I love how I can stop healing as MW when it's not needed and go DPS some (to recover mana too) in my guild's "fun runs" (aka up to EN HC alts, casuals, etc. runs) with MW being my second OS. Granted I am not raiding mythic, but BM tanking M+'es, I think my healing experience is on the same level as yours (in Legion) as we seem to heal similar content, while at the same time having much more tanking experience. Having said that, your assumption (the one I bolded out in your statement) is so fundamentally wrong it hurts.

Then tell me what kind of heal you use for tank healing when there is no damage income and has low mana usage?`Soothing Mist? Sure. Then your whole post would be full of lies again. Because you cant channel it while attacking. But i guess you didnt get it again. No one spoke about low damage raid incoming like you did. At least i was speaking about normal conditions. Same story again: Learn to read. You seem to have serious issues with it.

[stross01]

I pretty much tanked the drakes without taking heals until 4 drakes as brewmaster back in october. Possibly the first monk tank to do so. The holy paladin just shocked me if I happened to drop below 35% for some reason and spammed heals while I went for stack reset. Otherwise I handled myself.

Here is the log from it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0&type=healing

I'm not sure this counts as skill as much it does as a colorful use of game mechanics. And I certainly wouldn't brag about it as "the first monk tank to do so."

If people are curious as to how this is possible, which I don't think it is anymore on Cenarius, it's because of the Gift of the Ox orb placement. If you stand in a position where an orb cannot spawn in the normal areas, it will spawn directly under you and you will instantly pick it up, like in a 90 degree corner or on top of an object like a pillar (or egg lol).

I did the quite a bit in pvp and in certain M+ runs during the beta. It's incredibly potent in arenas (Dalaran Sewers is the best) against opponents that are strictly physical or deal damage in very small, rapid increments, as you'll heal over 35% the instant you drop below it and you'll be unkillable. Eventually, the 100% hp-taken Orb will spawn in conjunction with the Obstinate Determination one, they'll be Overflowed, and proc Celestial Fortune and bam, back to full hp.

Your log shows you didn't move, you didn't Expel, and you barely removed your stacks, which means you stood in place on top of one of the eggs, milking Obstinate Determination as fast as your latency permitted.

I'm pretty sure this is nerfed now because the drakes will just summon you the instant you move up the ledges or jump on certain eggs, though.

All in all, your post and the logs within, are not at all relevant to the conversation.

That's what I'm trying to understand since when the thread started : let's assume for the sake of simplicity, there are no overheals and no purifies. Does that mean it takes less mana usage for "topping" the tank ?

If that's the case why wouldn't the other tank get the same benefit ? I mean, all the others tanks have (close to) 100% active mitigation uptime.

e.g : Blood dk, after taking let's say X damage that can be topped by mitigation (boneshield) + self heal (death strike) + hots (rejuv). On the other hand the monk, if he takes exactly the same damage but with no purifies, there's still 15-20% damage taken left to heal (because they don't have a boneshield). How is that "easier" for the healer ? All I can see is, it makes the healer's life easier to heal the other group members because they know the monk won't die as easily as the DK. But there's still this mana problem.

Unless I'm missing something ?

Basically, imagine this:

If you're running High Tolerance with the coming 2-set, you've got 95% stagger. For simplicity's sake, lets just assume that you now take no up front damage. You take all damage as stagger damage. A skilled brewmaster has the ability to eliminate all surprises from all physical damage encounters. They're able to equal the coming value of stagger with the coming value of hots, negating the stagger completely. There will be very few to no spikes in incoming damage, as they would have to take incredible damage to even be close to the HP variances of the other tank specs.

If a non-brewmaster is hit for 1,000,000, barring absorbs, their life immediately goes from current to 1,000,000 lower, creating a spike. For a brewmaster to go from the same current to the same lower, they'd need to be hit for 20,000,000, which isn't going to happen unless you're cheesing some mechanic or the boss has enraged. This creates the 'smoothness', because stagger damage is extremely predictable. It's always going to be ticking, it will never quadruple or more in an instant, and there's a lot of time to plan ahead for both you and your healer. If you're running Blackout Combo, you can create small portions of time, consecutively or not, where you take almost zero damage, by pausing your stagger.

The mana problem you're talking about has never existed for me for any healer I play with. In a raid setting, if everyone is OOM, if it's progression, you need more gear or a better strat. If it's farm, scumbags will be scumbags. If it's M+, I have no idea; even at very high M+ with any affixes, I've never run into a healer with mana problems. A lot of my healers spend a lot of time dps'ing.

"Easier" does not mean "I have more mana left after healing tank A as opposed to tank B therefore tank A is easier". It's not that binary.

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Then tell me what kind of heal you use for tank healing when there is no damage income and has low mana usage?`Soothing Mist? Sure. Then your whole post would be full of lies again. Because you cant channel it while attacking. But i guess you didnt get it again. No one spoke about low damage raid incoming like you did. At least i was speaking about normal conditions. Same story again: Learn to read. You seem to have serious issues with it.

Are you able to post some logs or something to give us an idea of what you're talking about?

I've run m2-m7 with nothing but Soothing Mist and the Effuse it put it on, both as the brewmaster and mistweaver (13 traits in weapon).

[keqe]

I'm not sure this counts as skill as much it does as a colorful use of game mechanics. And I certainly wouldn't brag about it as "the first monk tank to do so."

If people are curious as to how this is possible, which I don't think it is anymore on Cenarius, it's because of the Gift of the Ox orb placement. If you stand in a position where an orb cannot spawn in the normal areas, it will spawn directly under you and you will instantly pick it up, like in a 90 degree corner or on top of an object like a pillar (or egg lol).

I did the quite a bit in pvp and in certain M+ runs during the beta. It's incredibly potent in arenas (Dalaran Sewers is the best) against opponents that are strictly physical or deal damage in very small, rapid increments, as you'll heal over 35% the instant you drop below it and you'll be unkillable. Eventually, the 100% hp-taken Orb will spawn in conjunction with the Obstinate Determination one, they'll be Overflowed, and proc Celestial Fortune and bam, back to full hp.

Your log shows you didn't move, you didn't Expel, and you barely removed your stacks, which means you stood in place on top of one of the eggs, milking Obstinate Determination as fast as your latency permitted.

I'm pretty sure this is nerfed now because the drakes will just summon you the instant you move up the ledges or jump on certain eggs, though.

All in all, your post and the logs within, are not at all relevant to the conversation.

It was relevant to the off topic discussion some people had. And I didn't mean to brag. Just to show that even at low gear the orbs were enough to heal in cenarius. And the drakes did teleport you away even back then. You had an extremely small spot to stay and if you moved even slightly wrong you got teleported away. Not to mention you had to do some trickery with the drakes as the drakes hit you from farther you could actually hit them. So you had to go around a bit so the drakes got closer to the spot.

But the point wasn't about that being "skilled". It was a math thing now and back then. I thought with HT stagger+cenarius DoT won't hit more than what orbs heal so I could just cheese it that way. With we having just 2 warriors as other tank possibilities (and them just getting nerfed) we thought this was the best thing to try to do it.

[GT4]

Cenarius spears are Physical. BrMs can mitigate 80-90% of those hits without even changing anything in their play, most other tanks have to pop a cooldown or get an external, or do some resource planning/pooling.

Oh... I thought it was magic damage. Being the drake tank I never really bothered to check. That means brewmaster would've been fine pretty much all along then.

And how much did healing did your Guarm co-tank take? Did the both of you combined take less than 400k hps? That was sort of the point of that post, I think.

Co-tank? I took our solo tank kills (the first one with the worst gear and only 31 traits to be precise) as a reference because he was also solo-tanking. Comparing one tank tactic and 2 tank tactic honestly doesn't make much sense given how there's still *some* damage that isn't just melee + multi-headed and tanks playing 2 tank tactic typically went full DPS back then.

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I pretty much tanked the drakes without taking heals until 4 drakes as brewmaster back in october. Possibly the first monk tank to do so. The holy paladin just shocked me if I happened to drop below 35% for some reason and spammed heals while I went for stack reset. Otherwise I handled myself.

Here is the log from it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0&type=healing

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...en&options=130

Might not have been necessary but you took quite a bit of healing from your healers over the course of the fight.

Either way, this just reinforces my initial argument that brewmasters honestly were fine for all bosses so far. Even helya with the healing taken debuff can easily be played around if the second tank takes all debuffs in P3.

[stross01]

It was relevant to the off topic discussion some people had. And I didn't mean to brag. Just to show that even at low gear the orbs were enough to heal in cenarius. And the drakes did teleport you away even back then. You had an extremely small spot to stay and if you moved even slightly wrong you got teleported away. Not to mention you had to do some trickery with the drakes as the drakes hit you from farther you could actually hit them. So you had to go around a bit so the drakes got closer to the spot.

But the point wasn't about that being "skilled". It was a math thing now and back then. I thought with HT stagger+cenarius DoT won't hit more than what orbs heal so I could just cheese it that way. With we having just 2 warriors as other tank possibilities (and them just getting nerfed) we thought this was the best thing to try to do it.

In what way is this repeatable on any other fight without cheesing a spot? Your old ass, irrelevant encounter isn't useful anymore. The orbs could've healed for less than half and still have yielded the same result.

Transcending to the same spot and replacing the Transcend isn't difficult, especially if you set it up before the fight even begins.

Your log is should be voided. It's no different than people that scummed things up with HFC tier.

[keqe]

In what way is this repeatable on any other fight without cheesing a spot? Your old ass, irrelevant encounter isn't useful anymore. The orbs could've healed for less than half and still have yielded the same result.

Transcending to the same spot and replacing the Transcend isn't difficult, especially if you set it up before the fight even begins.

Your log is should be voided. It's no different than people that scummed things up with HFC tier.

Why the sudden aggression? My post was a directed to the quote which was discussing cenarius. I didn't mean that this prooves monk is a healing god. Chill.

Also, transcending to the place directly would just put the drakes out of melee range from you. Unable to TP would have killed me in the last phase for lack of brews.

It was stupidly more risky than what I originally thought to be.(because of placement issues/teleports/random health drops) A warrior in the corner would have ended up better probably. But it died so w/e.

[stross01]

Why the sudden aggression? My post was a directed to the quote which was discussing cenarius. I didn't mean that this prooves monk is a healing god. Chill.

Also, transcending to the place directly would just put the drakes out of melee range from you. Unable to TP would have killed me in the last phase for lack of brews.

It doesn't prove anything and isn't conducive at all; that's what I'm saying. The conversation was about mitigating spear damage. You offered up a cheese log showing an impossible-to-be-legit healing result where you didn't offer a how it was done or why it was cheesed.

Also, I've never experienced what you're talking about.

[keqe]

It doesn't prove anything and isn't conducive at all; that's what I'm saying. The conversation was about mitigating spear damage. You offered up a cheese log showing an impossible-to-be-legit healing result where you didn't offer a how it was done or why it was cheesed.

Also, I've never experienced what you're talking about.

But drake tanking and orb healing was discussed.

Realistically speaking, the only fight so far where I'd say brewmaster actually has a real disadvantage from its mechanics is cenarius. As our guild's drake tank, I can survive without a healer for the majority of the fight, typically taking no more than around 100k HPS from healers over the course of the fight and surviving P3 without any heals. I doubt a brewmaster would've been able to do so shortly after EN release. Just like blood, they wouldn't be great at tanking cenarius either.

And that was where my post was pointed at. I just said it was possible. Cheesy, but possible but I thought corner tanking was obvious. It was recommended on this very forum for a long time (until people got gear and forgot).


About cenarius problems. If I ever touched the wall I got teleported to drakes. Sometimes without moving I got teleported to cenarius (very rare, happened maybe 3 times). If I went to reset stacks and teleported to my "spot" directly, the drakes would come to hit me, and action bar would show the mobs are in range, but I couldn't tiger palm or blackout strike them. Thus I had to move close to wall over my spot and when they were on place I teleported to the spot.

It was cheesy, and stupid considering warriors could have done it better (we were too shocked by the nerfs). Can't brag about something stupid and cheesy. That wasn't my point and I hope you understand.