AoE : Frostscythe vs Runic Attenuation

[boz0]

Hey guys,

I've read in a thread recently that RA wasn't a major dps loss in AoE situations in M+. I'd assume that comes from more Icy Talons uptime (so more Frozen Pulse) and Rime procs since you use Obliterate instead of FrostScythe.

Does anyone have solid numbers on that?

Also, I've got Perserverance of the Ebon Martyr (lucky me). It feels like this should skew the numbers in favor of RA, since more Obliterates = more Rime procs = more dps during RW effect (at least after 7.1.5). Does that sound correct?

Overall I love FrostScythe's burstiness on packs, but RA is the clear winner on bosses, so if it's competitive on AoE, I'll switch without looking back.

[Deleted]

Dungeons like Kara (speed run for Nightbane), or M+ where you have teeming, Fsc all the way. Dungeons like Arcway or if your tank pulls small packs RA.

I have personally found the difference on total dps to be around 50-150k when I compare, but then again the grps I run with are never the same.

[Piz813]

Hey guys,

I've read in a thread recently that RA wasn't a major dps loss in AoE situations in M+. I'd assume that comes from more Icy Talons uptime (so more Frozen Pulse) and Rime procs since you use Obliterate instead of FrostScythe.

Does anyone have solid numbers on that?

Also, I've got Perserverance of the Ebon Martyr (lucky me). It feels like this should skew the numbers in favor of RA, since more Obliterates = more Rime procs = more dps during RW effect (at least after 7.1.5). Does that sound correct?

Overall I love FrostScythe's burstiness on packs, but RA is the clear winner on bosses, so if it's competitive on AoE, I'll switch without looking back.

I gave up on Scythe completely in all situations... even this week with Teeming and last week with Bolstering. RA is just fine for everything, even Nightbane runs.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I personally get worse results without it in heavy aoe situations. That it spreads RI alone is hard to make up...

[Nayami]

With RA you will still have some pretty good AoE DPS and your ST DPS will definitely gain a nice boost, but if you're rushing the dungeon and pulling multiple trash packs then Frostscythe is definitely the go-to talent imo.

Also, you can still have pretty good Icy Talons uptime without RA specced, just make sure to use Frost Strike only when Icy Talons is about to fall off and you will be fine. You could also try to end the current fight against a trash pack with a fresh duration on Icy Talons and enough RP for Frost Strike so you can instantly Frost Strike the next trash pack and keep all of your stacks (if your tank is fast enough of course).

[Schizoide]

RA is definitely fine, but FsC is definitely better for heavy AE. Two reasons to bring a frost DK, AE damage and the low-cooldown AE stun. Nobody brings a FDK for his single-target damage.

[Deleted]

RA is definitely fine, but FsC is definitely better for heavy AE. Two reasons to bring a frost DK, AE damage and the low-cooldown AE stun. Nobody brings a FDK for his single-target damage.

This is so wrong yet so true. people do believe FDK cant do single target dps. But an RA build with the right stats and build will do real competitive single target dps. I can promise you now that if you go FsC you will fall into that category of AOE >> single which gives us this image.

Drop FsC and you will still match/beat others with aoe DPS but your single target will be competitive as well.


The bottom line is this:
FsC when you are in a guild run, this is because you can build a group around the instance you are about to run and the AOE dps from a FDK when specced with FsC will be unmatched by most/all. you can then balance out single target with your other dps choices.

RA (correct stats needed) with pugs when you don't have the option to build a perfect group.

the ONLY time I choose FsC now is with Teeming AND Fortified. any other setup I am RA build. (I don't have a hardcore guild with the ability to pick my own Group)

/Lecs

[Akusa202]

There is always a thread asking this question and it is always full of people giving incorrect opinions. Yes, opinions can be wrong. Sure, aoe can be "fine" without frostscythe, even very good, if RNG is on your side. But it still won't be better than frostscythe's high, constant, reliable aoe damage. I keep seeing people say this and I really don't get why so many think that frostscythe is only good in low level runs where multiple groups are pulled, Literally every dungeon has trash packs big enough for regular, standard single pulls for frostscythe to come out ahead.

You are going to do less single target damage on bosses, not going to argue that. But you need to take a step back and ask yourself what is more important, a small dps loss on bosses, which make up a small amount of the instance, or a big overall damage loss on trash which is the majority of the dungeon. And yes, even in a high mythic +, even on tyrannical, the damage you gain on bosses does not make up the damage you lose on trash. When you're racing the clock of a mythic + you need to look at overall damage done.

And wtf, someone said Arcway was a bad fsc dungeon? that place is full of huge trash packs. Maybe, you could make an argument for Court of Stars.

So, you can settle for "okay", or "fine" aoe, that is completely RNG dependent (and let me tell you, not getting a single rime proc after like 5 obliterates feels horrible) or you can have good aoe, with fine single target (yes, even with fsc your boss damage is still fine because boss fights in dungeons aren't that long, not like we are discussing a raid here) But, no matter what you do you are never going to have good single target damage, that goes to the rets, rogues, warriors, enhancements, etc, all of which also do "fine" aoe damage, so if you're going that route, why should a group even take you when they can have another class that does it better. Play to your classes strengths, destroy trash. People make this big deal about fsc, thinking they are going to drop like 100k dps on bosses with it in dungeons, which that isn't the case at all, but you can be sure you'll drop more than that in overall damage. If you don't believe me, go try it for yourself, do a couple of runs of the same dungeon, different ones, with both specs and compare.

Btw, this is all coming from someone that has completed a mythic + 15 in time. Not to sound elitist or anything, but I do have quite a bit of experience in many dungeons, unlike some of the people who haven't even completed a 10 in time who just post here saying no no you're wrong, fsc sucks, with out much experience with it.

[boz0]

There is always a thread asking this question and it is always full of people giving incorrect opinions. Yes, opinions can be wrong. Sure, aoe can be "fine" without frostscythe, even very good, if RNG is on your side. But it still won't be better than frostscythe's high, constant, reliable aoe damage.

But you need to take a step back and ask yourself what is more important, a small dps loss on bosses, which make up a small amount of the instance, or a big overall damage loss on trash which is the majority of the dungeon.

I know well enough what's important to me, which is why I was asking for solid numbers - or, barring that, solid experience.
I know the ST difference is small enough (simmed 20k at my gear level), though my IT uptime needs some work without RA, so the actual difference is probably a bit larger.

Any idea how the legendary helm fits in there with Rime procs? I'm not sure if simc takes it into account, as HB goes only from 6% to 7% of my dps when switching from FsC to RA.

[Deleted]

Honestly you just don't see the issue with that 'opinion' do you?

if you are completing a +15 in time you are clearly running it with optimal group setup. As I said before if you can do this then FDK FsC will clearly be the ideal dps. But if you cant and you are pugging +10 - 12 then RA will be a better setup.

The main reason RA works in a pug better is although the aoe dps is still lower its the way you can handle the target you are targeting aswell as doing aoe dps, what that means is the Mob you are targeting Whilst doing aoe dmg WILL drop quicker and its noticeable. FsC just does constant dmg to ALL with very little extra dps to the one your targeting. In a PuG you often survive better when one or two go does quicker than having an overall dps increase.

if people don't understand that its because in PuG's people just look at the dps output and say 'im doing my job' in an ideal setup you will have good communication and great crowd controll skills.

and I want to be quite clear on Single target dps. its NOT small the difference, it is quite a lot when you are comparing the right stats with an RA build to the right stats with FsC build. if you just switched out FsC for RA talents WIHTOUT changing ur stats around then the difference in single target dps is still greater for RA but by a smaller margin.

People too often just switch talents and go test out the difference... This does not work.

[boz0]

and I want to be quite clear on Single target dps. its NOT small the difference, it is quite a lot when you are comparing the right stats with an RA build to the right stats with FsC build. if you just switched out FsC for RA talents WIHTOUT changing ur stats around then the difference in single target dps is still greater for RA but by a smaller margin.

People too often just switch talents and go test out the difference... This does not work.

What are the right stats for RA, then?

My scaling with a RA build looks like this :
Haste: 7.36
Crit: 7.18
Vers: 7.18
Mastery: 6.68

Simming with a FsC build gives :
Vers: 6.79
Crit: 6.65
Haste: 6.54
Mastery: 6.34

Versatility is slightly more valuable and haste noticeably less valuable, but they still remain pretty close in both case, so I can't see that making such a huge difference.

[Deleted]

How about GA vs Obliteration in m+? GA feels somewhat redundant with FS, though it doesn't have to crit to do decent dmg.

[Deleted]

When I run RA I have Haste at around 19 - 20%. 8% vers and try to get my crit up as much as possible whilst maintaining Mastery.

I don't drop my mastery as much as others because I pref to have my Frost Strike do more dmg. This helps maintain dps higher when I have to move out of range for various reasons. FS with RA becomes my single highest dps skill in % of dmg.

when I run FsC I push my haste to 25% and drop my vers down to about 4%. now the reason I do this is because FS cant be spammed as much and Icy Talons becomes harder to keep up. on a dummy you can mange alot lower but in many bosses at higher levels you spend alot more attention to the mechanics and if you don't push your haste up to these limits it will drop off which really hurts our dps.

so all in all its a difference of 5% haste and 4% vers. that might not sound alot but for me it makes a noticeable difference. If you had the gear to play about with lowering that Vers and putting it into crit/mastery then my guess is it could push this even higher? but I cant try these out as I don not have the gear to do this.

p.s. Sim this Sim that.. I do that and yes I can tell you results on that but as we all know Sims are GREAT for giving you a strong indication but it cant play as you play which means you might not skill out as high as others (including me) to make use of that extra dps. Ive done this many times and I have to reduce my numbers in some stats to compensate my lower skill than an ideal Sim!

[Piz813]

How about GA vs Obliteration in m+? GA feels somewhat redundant with FS, though it doesn't have to crit to do decent dmg.

I gave up on GA too. Used to love it and use on CD on everything. Now it feels weird playing without Obliteration and doing my little counting game. 9 key strokes in all situations I do when its popped.

[boz0]

p.s. Sim this Sim that.. I do that and yes I can tell you results on that but as we all know Sims are GREAT for giving you a strong indication but it cant play as you play which means you might not skill out as high as others (including me) to make use of that extra dps. Ive done this many times and I have to reduce my numbers in some stats to compensate my lower skill than an ideal Sim!

I always set SimC to average skill
But yeah, I'll fool around once 7.1.5 hits, missing too many traits on my weapons at this point, only dinged 110 a couple weeks ago on that toon.

Thanks for the detailed input.

[Khain]

Never do M+ with RA, such a waste of AoE, sure you can do decent AoE and decent single with that, but I'm a big believer in double down strengths rather than being meh at everything. Also if RA only benefits if the boss fights are dragging for too long if you're in a good group just saving ERW for the bosses is enough to avoid bad rng and do decent dps.

[Piz813]

Never do M+ with RA, such a waste of AoE, sure you can do decent AoE and decent single with that, but I'm a big believer in double down strengths rather than being meh at everything. Also if RA only benefits if the boss fights are dragging for too long if you're in a good group just saving ERW for the bosses is enough to avoid bad rng and do decent dps.

Not really. Even with Bolstering, everything goes down fast these days with 880+ gear all around in a 13+.

[bubbadubba]

I have the Obliterate legendary, I prefer Frostscythe in all AoE situations because it is easier to keep Frozen Pulse up. The difference I have found is frostscythe is around 1.3m+ dps well RA is around 800k.

[skitzin]

I don't think it's a matter of which does better AoE - obviously FsC does the highest. I think it's a matter of do you need more AoE or ST damage in your group. Personally, I found that the higher you go in mythic+ you get better benefit from increased ST damage than AoE.

[Deleted]

rime hits way harder than scythe
scythe is shit
ga is also shit
people underestimate single target dps importance in m+
these are facts