Making destruction warlock fun again

[Eleriol]

And you... uh... might want to read what was quoted, I see no reason to be gracious to a random poster who tries to get his point across with insults.

But I guess when you see my name, it instantly puts you into tunnel vision mode.

What i said wasnt meant as an insult as i was trying to point out bad behavior on your part since you kept ignoring that part of the post, it was a bit rude yes but it seems i finnaly got the point across.

Normally i wouldnt bother even responding to posts like this but your are posting on these forums alot and you give other people shit for making unprodictive posts all the time and youre very arrogant in the way you deal with people just makes repsoning irresistable.

Im actully starting wonder if your not simply a sophisticated troll. Either that or you really lack the ability to recognize your own double standards.

[Deleted]

There are not many mechanical changes that I would like to see for Destruction. Overall, it plays actually quite ok. What I would like to have is
- Burning Rush back to baseline because a) Don't want to feel like the fat kid in Gym class during m+ and b) it's costly enough with the 4% health loss that it's a joke to also occupy a talent that competes against our defensive shields.
- Cataclysm on a shorter cooldown. With the current 45 seconds it's very frustrating in m+ again. Most will use FnB anyway because it's easier.

For next addon, I would like less (or ideally none) ground targeted stuff. With stairs/hills/uneven terrain it's an absolute pain to do and especially on our dps cooldown there are few less frustrating things than not getting it to cast because the ground doesn't allow it (hello, Helya in the 5-man).

Personally, I don't care about shards. More consistent generation might be fine, but knowing Blizzard, they will use this change to nerf it so I don't really want it. Overall, it won't make much of a difference. If we want the generation time exactly the same, then it can still happen that we suddenly gain 4 complete shards / embers, making us overcap.

[Deleted]

Also increase Chaos Bolt damage by 500% and everyone who touches you dies.

I mean, if you want to make things OP as fuck, why stop there?

Why is it op as fuck? Its basically everything we had in wod

[Abie78]

Shadowfury without cast time was a bad idea in the first place and a lot of people complained about it in mop for example.
Pretty much like Deep Freeze.

If you want to make it instant again, increase the cooldown or reduce the stun duration.

[Tabrotar]

What also would be great (also that would be for all warlock specs) is if our dear good battlerezz would be instant instead of having a casttime.
More than once i was the only one with a rezz available and i couldn´t get it through because i had to move or got interrupted.

[Deleted]

Shadowfury without cast time was a bad idea in the first place and a lot of people complained about it in mop for example.
Pretty much like Deep Freeze.

If you want to make it instant again, increase the cooldown or reduce the stun duration.

So it would be actually like any stun / aoe stun that melees have. That would be unacceptable of course for a warlock.

I would be OK with a reduction of the stun duration to 3 seconds if I got it back instant.

Same for baseline movement speed increase.

[Turturin the Warlock]

So it would be actually like any stun / aoe stun that melees have. That would be unacceptable of course for a warlock.

I would be OK with a reduction of the stun duration to 3 seconds if I got it back instant.

Same for baseline movement speed increase.

I wouldn't. I like having 4 secs of actions during my stun instead of 1.5

[Deleted]

It is quite a lot.

I would be shocked to see even one thing being added to Destruction Warlocks with LEGION.

I have to ask you. What is your obession about warlocks and thier state now?

And what is your progression?

I wanted to ask you, because I literaly see you post everywhere and it just seems for the sake of being salty.

[Bullettime]

Maybe unpopular opinion but I really don't think Destruction is THAT bad right now, design wise anyways. I would just argue they need to hammer on what makes Destruction awesome, thematically, and drop some of the unnecessary things like the RNG heavy Mastery and the whole Dimensional Rift thing which is at least going away with the next expansion.

I'd love to see Destruction get something like the D2 Druid's Firestorm, the Infernal to be the DPS pet with Supremacy, and thus more emphasis on scorching the earth. Design wise, it has clear strengths and weaknesses which is perfectly fine and its mechanics work well together. Havoc is just the elephant in the room but that's a tricky beast to try to tackle.

[Deleted]

I have to ask you. What is your obession about warlocks and thier state now?

And what is your progression?

I wanted to ask you, because I literaly see you post everywhere and it just seems for the sake of being salty.

did you quote the wrong person or are completely misinterpreting/misreading what I am writing?

I am probably one of the lesser salty people here, but do have a healthy view of the pros and cons.

[Deleted]

Also increase Chaos Bolt damage by 500% and everyone who touches you dies.

I mean, if you want to make things OP as fuck, why stop there?

Honestly, half the stuff he's asking for wouldn't be that bad - though I agree the other half would be better of remaining dead - KJC being the biggest offender.

Shadowfury really doesn't need a cast time.
Circle being baseline wouldn't even begin to address melee's dominance and how much destruction struggles against them in pvp - in pve I really don't think it's going to have much impact if it was changed with the old talent layout, let alone now you're competing against completely non-raid worthy ones most of the time - replacing it with blood horror would be an easy replacement to get circle back in the baseline kit with minimal impact on balance.
Backlash I've still never managed to figure out why it was removed - it was one of the least impactful little bits in destructions toolkit, certainly wouldn't hurt to have it back.

KJC, ember tap, soul shatter and focused chaos cleaving are all either too potentially strong or downright broken to have back.

The other stuff is a mixed bag - I'd like to see Shadowburn back in the base toolkit, but it'd be a bigger change than circle going baseline. I certainly miss the role SB filled though. Probably the 3rd biggest gameplay change I'd love to see for destruction.

Second and first biggest would be the two main problems I have with destruction though
1) I'd really love to see the AOE revamped, I think the current system is pretty bland compared to what we had - and I'm not just talking about going from the king of sustained AOE to shit tier, we seem to have regressed to classic / TBC level class design with a targeting reticule AOE in a world that feels increasingly less designed around that working, ontop of having a pretty large upfront investment in terms of resources and zero AOE filler as baseline.
Old FnB felt a lot more engaging with the synergy between ROF for embers if you didn't have the gear / targets to sustain your AOE without it, the ability to toggle between AOE filler back to ST spenders for more economic damage on a priority target - it had interesting things you could do with it. I'd take that with significantly reduced numbers if people are so terrified of being strong again after MOP. Mechanically I found it far more interesting than the boring ass AOE we have now, and I say that as someone who spent most of WOD championing ROF remaining a part of the destruction toolkit.

2) I'd be happy to see embers returning. Incinerate feels completely desynced from the core rotation and, like with the AOE, we seem to have regressed from an interesting system to a tangibly less interesting system for no real reason other than uniformity across the specs. There's a lot more you can do with a 25bit (or whatever number they chose an ember to be broken into) resource system over a 5bit one.

I don't think Destruction is in a particularly dreadful place design-wise though, just worse in some areas than it has in the past, which makes it all the more noticeable and less excusable.

[Deleted]

Destruction just needs some procc to make the gameplay less rotation-like (which it is pretty much right now, even if you "follow a list of priorities" I'm sure destro could be played by a very basic bot). Soul Fire again and I'd be happy

Edit: And of course the other changes I said, but those were QoL, not rotation-like changes.

In fact, this goes to every class in wow: less spells in talents, more "improve base spells" with talents. I like the HotS system, which not counting minor exceptions (piano Uther comes to mind) talents upgrade your basic spells instead of giving you more - but of course then we'll need more spells base-line.

Cataclysm baseline: only applies Immolate (damage with talent, maybe more radius too)
Demonic portal baseline (I don't think this would be broken... man I was so happy when they gave it to us in ICC) (cd reduction with talent, or maybe something else, like damage reduction during 3 sec after using it or w/e)
Soul Fire: long ass cast time hard hitting spell which leaves a minor dot (basically Pyro, because we should get to steal something from mages now >:C), insta with some proc, like Immo crits or maybe something else like "spending 4 shards in 4 seconds" or something like that.

[Bullettime]

Honestly, half the stuff he's asking for wouldn't be that bad - though I agree the other half would be better of remaining dead - KJC being the biggest offender.

Shadowfury really doesn't need a cast time.
Circle being baseline wouldn't even begin to address melee's dominance and how much destruction struggles against them in pvp - in pve I really don't think it's going to have much impact if it was changed with the old talent layout, let alone now you're competing against completely non-raid worthy ones most of the time - replacing it with blood horror would be an easy replacement to get circle back in the baseline kit with minimal impact on balance.
Backlash I've still never managed to figure out why it was removed - it was one of the least impactful little bits in destructions toolkit, certainly wouldn't hurt to have it back.

KJC, ember tap, soul shatter and focused chaos cleaving are all either too potentially strong or downright broken to have back.

The other stuff is a mixed bag - I'd like to see Shadowburn back in the base toolkit, but it'd be a bigger change than circle going baseline. I certainly miss the role SB filled though. Probably the 3rd biggest gameplay change I'd love to see for destruction.

Second and first biggest would be the two main problems I have with destruction though
1) I'd really love to see the AOE revamped, I think the current system is pretty bland compared to what we had - and I'm not just talking about going from the king of sustained AOE to shit tier, we seem to have regressed to classic / TBC level class design with a targeting reticule AOE in a world that feels increasingly less designed around that working, ontop of having a pretty large upfront investment in terms of resources and zero AOE filler as baseline.
Old FnB felt a lot more engaging with the synergy between ROF for embers if you didn't have the gear / targets to sustain your AOE without it, the ability to toggle between AOE filler back to ST spenders for more economic damage on a priority target - it had interesting things you could do with it. I'd take that with significantly reduced numbers if people are so terrified of being strong again after MOP. Mechanically I found it far more interesting than the boring ass AOE we have now, and I say that as someone who spent most of WOD championing ROF remaining a part of the destruction toolkit.

2) I'd be happy to see embers returning. Incinerate feels completely desynced from the core rotation and, like with the AOE, we seem to have regressed from an interesting system to a tangibly less interesting system for no real reason other than uniformity across the specs. There's a lot more you can do with a 25bit (or whatever number they chose an ember to be broken into) resource system over a 5bit one.

I don't think Destruction is in a particularly dreadful place design-wise though, just worse in some areas than it has in the past, which makes it all the more noticeable and less excusable.

The problem with relinking Incinerate to resource generation is that it further makes you into a turret. I don't understand why this keeps getting asked for despite so many complaints about Demonology's lack of movement created by the same problem. Embers is nothing more than a reskinned Balance Druid power bar in functionality. The current generation model with shards tied to Immolate and Conflag is actually awesome because it allows resources to continue while moving.

[Dnusha]

First of all I would like them to bring back Ember mechanics (soul shards whatever). Essentially it means you gather your power and then you unleash it. (mop 5.4)

I want them to bring back mastery that benefits Shard/ember spenders more, than ember generators. (so yeah i want them to redistribute damage back to CB, SB) They should also bring back 4 embers = 4 chaos bolts ratio that we used to have in mop/wod to outline destro explosive nature.

I really don't want that unreliable 7.0 random ass mastery to stay. It's random nature is a core of numerous problems with destro in 7.0.
I would also like to see 5.0/6.0 Shadowburn as a powerful baseline execute shard spender (7.1.5 shadowburn is a fucking joke - essentially they removed SB because they failed to find a proper place for it)

About AoE shard spenders: RoF and FnB. I would like to see MoP FnB baseline instead of RoF. It was so smooth and relaxing to AoE in MoP/wod and it's so annoying to do that now. I don't know what to do with RoF. Maybe it should be a talent? Mannoroth fury 5.2/phanthom singularity(25yards) style - for primordius like fight and world pvp(lel). Probably it will work since RoF will be a shard spender and it's damage will be greatly increased by mastery and people won't be able to spam it on RBGs. It actually makes perfect sense: You can use FnB and when you have more targets than you need to maintain FnB you can cast a powerful AoE spender. (there are two more aoe spells blizzard should find a place for - cata and cdm)

GoSac - i personally would gladly trade GoSac for Synergy. Because fuck that mindless passive talent and because synergy would be so fitting for destro(mechanics).

Wreak Havoc - i don't mind it but I feel like it takes away too much from a spec and restricts it's potential (chaos bolt damage, shard cap, shadowburn spam)

[Deleted]

Shadowfury without cast time was a bad idea in the first place and a lot of people complained about it in mop for example.
Pretty much like Deep Freeze.

If you want to make it instant again, increase the cooldown or reduce the stun duration.

yeah demonhunters fel nova or warrior shockwave are so fun to deal with, right?

- - - Updated - - -

First of all I would like them to bring back Ember mechanics (soul shards whatever). Essentially it means you gather your power and then you unleash it. (mop 5.4)

I want them to bring back mastery that benefits Shard/ember spenders more, than ember generators. (so yeah i want them to redistribute damage back to CB, SB) They should also bring back 4 embers = 4 chaos bolts ratio that we used to have in mop/wod to outline destro explosive nature.

I really don't want that unreliable 7.0 random ass mastery to stay. It's random nature is a core of numerous problems with destro in 7.0.
I would also like to see 5.0/6.0 Shadowburn as a powerful baseline execute shard spender (7.1.5 shadowburn is a fucking joke - essentially they removed SB because they failed to find a proper place for it)

About AoE shard spenders: RoF and FnB. I would like to see MoP FnB baseline instead of RoF. It was so smooth and relaxing to AoE in MoP/wod and it's so annoying to do that now. I don't know what to do with RoF. Maybe it should be a talent? Mannoroth fury 5.2/phanthom singularity(25yards) style - for primordius like fight and world pvp(lel). Probably it will work since RoF will be a shard spender and it's damage will be greatly increased by mastery and people won't be able to spam it on RBGs. It actually makes perfect sense: You can use FnB and when you have more targets than you need to maintain FnB you can cast a powerful AoE spender. (there are two more aoe spells blizzard should find a place for - cata and cdm)

GoSac - i personally would gladly trade GoSac for Synergy. Because fuck that mindless passive talent and because synergy would be so fitting for destro(mechanics).

Wreak Havoc - i don't mind it but I feel like it takes away too much from a spec and restrict it's potential (chaos bolt damage, shard cap, shadowburn spam)

i actually dont want embers back now that i think about it, just give incinerate a nightfall proc making our next incin/Cb whatever instant. That would make me really happy. Generating shards with conflag/immo crits is fine for me. Remove Soul Conduit and give us focused chaos from the pvp talent tree (not havocable ofc because that would be insanely op).

[PickleballAce]

Getting rid of Embers was one of the most baffling design decisions I've ever seen them make, in this era of "spec/class flavor". To start, they should come back.

KJC is probably best left dead, or at least the ridiculously OP early iterations. I'd rather see Fel Flame return, and given back the DoT-refresh mechanic now that we don't have to worry about snapshotting.

Speaking of snapshotting, those of you who are complaining (mostly-correctly) about MoP Warlocks being OP mechanically are probably forgetting how much snapshotting contributed to that, especially combined with now-dead stuff like Soul Swap. Without snapshotting, some of the shit we had is not quite as egregiously overpowered.

I absolutely hated the fnb toggle. Hated it with a passion. It severely limited aoe when there weren't enough mobs generate embers. It also relied on the cancer that was charred remains to be useful.

We had Fire and Brimstone in MoP, Pre-Charred Remains, and it was quite useful. Do you really prefer tab-targeting immolates and hoping the tank doesn't drag everything out of your pathetically small Rain of Fire?

[Deleted]

The problem with relinking Incinerate to resource generation is that it further makes you into a turret. I don't understand why this keeps getting asked for despite so many complaints about Demonology's lack of movement created by the same problem. Embers is nothing more than a reskinned Balance Druid power bar in functionality. The current generation model with shards tied to Immolate and Conflag is actually awesome because it allows resources to continue while moving.

That isn't a problem with incinerate, it's a problem with warlock mobility, something that I don't find too obnoxious right now but it isn't because of Conflag generating entire embers.

How you can call the current model better because it causes shards to generate while moving is beyond me unless you have zero interest in how the spec feels to play and only care about output, which is literally a case of number tuning, our current model is more limiting than the old one in terms.
Immolate being able to generate embers is nothing new.
Conflag being able to generate embers is nothing new.
Conflag generating such a large portion of our embers hinders our movement if anything, since now we're punished far more for banking conflag charges for movement, since it's throttling our resource generation. One of the old complaints about having to use Conflag to pad out movement was that you were letting your backdraft charges potentially go to waste, that's even worse now with backdraft since it's a timer as opposed to a charge system and ontop of that your Conflags are way too responsible for embers that you can't use it while moving if you'd cap, you can't bank them if you'd cap on charges etc - it's far more limited than when Conflag was a much less important part of the core rotation that you could afford to save.
Besides that, I think our artifact ability has gone a pretty long way towards helping destructions mobility out, a few charge ability to use on the move like it was exactly what the spec needed.

Mobility, while I'd adore a Fel Flame button to press while moving even if it's output was pathetic, isn't really that big of a gripe for me lately. I'd much rather have a more engaging experience when I'm executing my core rotation that makes up 95% of my actual, useful activity time when stood still and able to play the game, rather than having that marred by filler being almost completely decoupled from the rest of the spec just so that, when I'm crippled by movement, I can pretend it's not so bad because hey - immolate is still ticking away and I might have some conflag charges to use! You know, exactly the same thing that was going on when we DID have embers.

All that aside - I really don't see why they can't exist in tandem to some extent.
Immolate, Conflag, Incinerate and ROF all generated ember bits in the old system - I really don't think the new system is even remotely more mobile bar the artifact ability helping alleviate movement.

[Gaidax]

The problem with relinking Incinerate to resource generation is that it further makes you into a turret. I don't understand why this keeps getting asked for despite so many complaints about Demonology's lack of movement created by the same problem. Embers is nothing more than a reskinned Balance Druid power bar in functionality. The current generation model with shards tied to Immolate and Conflag is actually awesome because it allows resources to continue while moving.

This, for the life of me I do not understand how people do not realize this simple thing and literally keep asking for what will amount to a nerf.

One of the better things about Destruction in Legion is how resource generation is not hampered by movement.

[Dnusha]

I would gladly have a slower paced resourse generation (even if it will be vulnerable to movement) if spending it would feel meaningful. Now it's just meh.

[Fabinas]

This is a thread full of wishful thinking which will never be implemented. Except the Ember parts (cause already announced) and the incinerate to generate them (because it's a nerf, fits with the ember parts and this way you'll be careful for what you wish the next time... or the next... or the next). Some people never learn.