I never expected Vanilla WoW to be that good

[deniter]

Sorry, but which are the other two? You can send me a PM cuz I dont have enough posts

I shall name three (in no specific order):

- Dungeon Master (1987)
- Sid Meier's Civilization (1991)
- Doom (1993)

[SL1200]

You know what I remember about my time in Vanilla? Raptors, kill raptors, more raptors, even more raptors just in a different zone. Then when you're done with that we got more raptors that need to die in the next zone.

The other thing I remember about it was 2 manning all the dungeons, downing all of them but the black rock mountain one.

[Kallisto]

I shall name three (in no specific order):

- Dungeon Master (1987)
- Sid Meier's Civilization (1991)
- Doom (1993)

My friend this is off topic but I must ask if I can give you a high 5 for having Dungeon Master as a top game? (Also ask if you ever played Chaos Strikes Back)

[VinylScratch]

Vanilla was fun for it's time but is incredibly mediocre in comparison to say MoP or Legion. Community was the best part of Vanilla and TBC, the core gameplay was actually pretty Meh.

It's fun to see uneducated opinions such as this honestly. Tell me, if "for its time" is such a valid argument, why is it that there's a decent amount of people still playing that iteration of the game upwards of 10 years later? Couldn't possibly be that there are people who just prefer how the game was back then, nah that couldn't be it at all. Everyone HAS to love the flashy mechanics and the free items the game basically tube feeds you. Nobody likes taking pride in their accomplishments and feeling they legitimately earned things.

In case it wasn't apparent, the italics were meant to indicate sarcasm. Your argument has about as much substance as people who write off preference of the old game as nothing more than nostalgia. How about instead of thinking of buzzwords and spitting debunked canned arguments, you actually sit down and think on WHY people liked the older game and understand that the reasons they loved the older game, no longer exist in the current game. Nor will they ever be allowed to exist in the current game with the current playerbase.

Just because something is more flashy doesn't mean it's better at all. Hell, if newer automatically meant better then the recent Ghostbusters remake wouldn't have done so poorly.

Also, your "incredibly mediocre" statement, is that why the game before Blizzard quit announcing their subscriber numbers was on a downward trend and beginning to see numbers they hadn't seen since the release of the game since very late Cataclysm? If you want to pull the "end of expansion" card, look at the first three versions of the game. They only saw increases as the game pushed ahead. Clearly the game has been doing, and still is doing something utterly wrong.

[Kallisto]

Also, your "incredibly mediocre" statement, is that why the game before Blizzard quit announcing their subscriber numbers was on a downward trend and beginning to see numbers they hadn't seen since the release of the game since very late Cataclysm? If you want to pull the "end of expansion" card, look at the first three versions of the game. They only saw increases as the game pushed ahead. Clearly the game has been doing, and still is doing something utterly wrong.

It was also living off the back of Warcraft 3 in which Vanilla, BC and Wrath all ended with fighting a major villain from that game. Vanilla you had Kel'Thuzad, BC you had Kil'Jaeden and in Wrath you had Arthas. Once he was gone that pull was over. Kil'Jaeden was pushed back through the Sunwell, Kael'thas, Illidan, Vashj, Kel'thuzad and Arthas were all dealt with. Leading essentially to the end of the story.

Not saying you're wrong with groups of people preferring that era as people love different things. But I don't think we should discount the end of WC3 story arc as a reason for it either.

[VinylScratch]

You know what I remember about my time in Vanilla? Raptors, kill raptors, more raptors, even more raptors just in a different zone. Then when you're done with that we got more raptors that need to die in the next zone.

The other thing I remember about it was 2 manning all the dungeons, downing all of them but the black rock mountain one.

What a coincidence, all I remember about my time in Legion was being sent to random areas in the world with some brainless objective like saving squirrels in Val'sharah and being rewarded gear pieces that where comparable to raid gear if they forged up which was quite common.

I also remember when I got my legendary pants on my rogue I solo'd Halls of Valor or whatever Odyn's instance was called despite it scaling to 110. Real fun gameplay right? Oh! And let's not forget that the raid on its release was a joke on not only Normal, but Heroic difficulty and I had that done in the first week with Pick Ups. WHEW! Honestly, I think if people weren't as bad as they tend to be, they'd see Legion as the walk in the park it really is. About the only challenge you'll see is that one or two raid bosses on Mythic each raid that aren't loot pinatas. However Mythic raiding was aimed at people like me who wanted a challenge so Blizzard could make Normal and Heroic difficulties cakewalks for people who chug glue at their keyboard and still somehow can't figure out things like Ursoc's charge mechanic or the Cenarius stacking debuff which required you to stand on the green spots. Then don't get me started on the quality of players in the difficulty below Normal who think that's remotely close to raiding. . .

Yeah, I'd rather go back to Vanilla. At least there when someone says "We downed C'thun!" I don't have to ask "On what difficulty?" to figure out if they actually did something meaningful.

- - - Updated - - -

It was also living off the back of Warcraft 3 in which Vanilla, BC and Wrath all ended with fighting a major villain from that game. Vanilla you had Kel'Thuzad, BC you had Kil'Jaeden and in Wrath you had Arthas. Once he was gone that pull was over. Kil'Jaeden was pushed back through the Sunwell, Kael'thas, Illidan, Vashj, Kel'thuzad and Arthas were all dealt with. Leading essentially to the end of the story.

Not saying you're wrong with groups of people preferring that era as people love different things. But I don't think we should discount the end of WC3 story arc as a reason for it either.

Oh I'm not discounting Warcraft 3's contributions to WoW's success. However a lot of people also need to go a step further and realizing that WoW since Wrath has been piggybacking on the success the game's best years. Does anyone honestly think MoP/WoD/Legion could have been released by any other company without the World of Warcraft name attached to it and them succeed?

If WoW was not released as being part of Warcraft the story would have been a lot different which was a selling point however I'm talking strictly on game systems/mechanics/etc aside from characters. Basically MMO to MMO, not RTS to MMO. For the sake of discussion let's remove all Warcraft names and links and just rebrand them as different names. WoW would have contended with Everquest and probably won. A lot of the MMO portion to WoW's success was it hit a good balance, it didn't take your firstborn for dying, it didn't require lifelessness to play (yeah anyone who tells you that you had to play 8 hours a day is a moron, that only applied if you were doing the honor grind which a lot of servers cheated with their top rankers so they could play less anyway) among other things. I think WoW compared to Everquest without the Warcraft brand would have done just fine, not as good but it wouldn't have tanked. WoW was the revitalization that MMOs needed and the much necessary revision of the wheel.

I promise you if a company released Legion as a standalone, everything the same just now "World of Warcraft" attached to it, the game would have sank in a month. Blizzard on the other hand gets away with it because people hear "World of Warcraft" and think back to around Wrath when the game was at its peak. That awesome game with 12 million subscribers. Hardly anyone thinks of WoD, the game that dropped down to sub 6 million from 10 million within a year.

[Pull My Finger]

Such a ridiculous discussion. Current WoW is of course a LOT better than it used to be and it's completely natural too. I know it's hard when you're completely absorbed in this bubble, but get real please! Start looking at things like a normal, impartial person.

[Shadow Fox]

I can sum it all up for you ... the game was new and no one knew anything about what was coming or even what to expect. in todays game.. you can practically experience the new expansion without playing it through streams/youtube and fan sites. wow is in need of a major shake up.. we dont need 5 -6 new zones.. we need a new world and potentially a huge reset button if it wants to stay relevant.

WoW really does need a complete overhaul, like what Square Enix did with FF-XIV. Pretty much recreated the game from scratch, and even altered the story to be apart of the story through a massive cataclysmic event and massive battle.

Feel like that WoW is in need of something similar in purpose; A overhaul of the game, and the engine.

Crystal Engine is far different from the Warcraft engine though...

For what WoW is, a MMORPG designed on a Game Engine designed for RTS games, It did an AMAZING job. But it's quickly coming to it's limitations... They're fix to engine as a overhaul with Cataclysm and Mists, while made the game interesting and designed to improve the quality of life, felt like it degraded the engine performance, stability. Down the line, crippling what you can add, and do with the game content.

It was really just a matter of time, using a Game Engine made and designed in.... I think the 90's? like 1994 or something? Might be wrong...

[VinylScratch]

Such a ridiculous discussion. Current WoW is of course a LOT better than it used to be and it's completely natural too. I know it's hard when you're completely absorbed in this bubble, but get real please! Start looking at things like a normal, impartial person.

Sad thing is, on almost any other topic I'd see this as parody. However it's so similar to what I've seen of people being absolutely serious that I actually think this isn't a joke.

Too bad the anti-Legacy crowd can't offer people with educated stances to discuss the topic. We always get people who instead of entertaining discussion just scream buzzphrases like "NOSTALGIA!" "NEW WOW IS BETTER HANDS DOWN!" "ROSE-TINTED!". Figured I'd point this out so people aren't confused as to why we see the Legion crowd negatively.

[Relapses]

Too bad the anti-Legacy crowd can't offer people with educated stances to discuss the topic. We always get people who instead of entertaining discussion just scream buzzphrases like "NOSTALGIA!" "NEW WOW IS BETTER HANDS DOWN!" "ROSE-TINTED!". Figured I'd point this out so people aren't confused as to why we see the Legion crowd negatively.

Yeah, because at no point during the nearly 2,000 page megathread was a single intelligent anti-Legacy argument brought up.

[VinylScratch]

WoW really does need a complete overhaul, like what Square Enix did with FF-XIV. Pretty much recreated the game from scratch, and even altered the story to be apart of the story through a massive cataclysmic event and massive battle.

Feel like that WoW is in need of something similar in purpose; A overhaul of the game, and the engine.

Crystal Engine is far different from the Warcraft engine though...

For what WoW is, a MMORPG designed on a Game Engine designed for RTS games, It did an AMAZING job. But it's quickly coming to it's limitations... They're fix to engine as a overhaul with Cataclysm and Mists, while made the game interesting and designed to improve the quality of life, felt like it degraded the engine performance, stability. Down the line, crippling what you can add, and do with the game content.

It was really just a matter of time, using a Game Engine made and designed in.... I think the 90's? like 1994 or something? Might be wrong...

The game does need an absolute overhaul but it doesn't need it due to the engine. It needs the overhaul because the direction they're going and have been going for about seven years isn't healthy for the longevity of the game yet removing it would destroy the game anyway. It's like having a cancer that you ignored for too long and it's so widespread in your system that you're pretty much done for.

I will give the game definitely needs to be rebuilt from scratch but before that happens Blizzard NEEDS to understand where they went wrong and avoid it the second time around. Revamping your game will be absolutely pointless if the first thing you do is put back in the systems that destroyed the game in the first place.

[Pull My Finger]

Too bad the anti-Legacy crowd can't offer people with educated stances to discuss the topic.

Can there be a more ironic statement than this?

Get real please.

[VinylScratch]

Yeah, because at no point during the nearly 2,000 page megathread was a single intelligent anti-Legacy argument brought up.

Oh I'm sure one was, in fact we have a giant thread on the WoW general discussion about this very topic and it hits a point where it becomes a circle. Eventually a reasonable discussion is brought up, someone derails it with some idiotic argument because nobody likes to read before posting, and it circles from there. Namely in the form of Aehl who instead of contributing to the discussion will pop in every 20 pages, reiterate the same brainless argument of "lol that server is illegal" even though we're discussing whether Blizzard should host their own servers, the merits and drawbacks to doing so, etc.

I myself argued quite a lot in that megathread on this site and that's where a majority of my post count comes from. However the sheer amount of people who will have a reasonable discussion on the other side of the fence is dwarfed tremendously by people who basically pop in, read nothing, spout some idiotic buzzword like "Rose-tinted!" and leave.

I.E on the first page of this thread once of the first responses was literally "Nostalgia." If you want I can start a tally system of "Reasonable Argument" vs "Buzzword" and you'll see precisely what I'm talking about. Actually if you just bother to click on almost any page you'll see what I mean.

Now, if YOU want to have a reasonable discussion about the topic I'm all ears for the next five hours about. I'll show you precisely where I stand, and why with a well written post about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Can there be a more ironic statement than this?

Get real please.

"Such a ridiculous discussion. Current WoW is of course a LOT better than it used to be and it's completely natural too. I know it's hard when you're completely absorbed in this bubble, but get real please! Start looking at things like a normal, impartial person."

Now, why should I take anything seriously from someone who posts senseless babble like this?

[Pull My Finger]

Now, why should I take anything seriously from someone who posts senseless babble like this?

You don't have to. It's not like you could get helped or get some real perspective, so who cares?

Current WoW is a lot better than it used to be. Visuals, aesthetics, mechanics, design, QoL improvements, variety, everything. I don't know how detached one must be from reality to negate all of that in their own head, but you're definitely achieving that feat, so why would anyone try and poke your thick, impervious bubble with the thin needle of reason?

That's the crux of society. Reason is a precious little object, but stupor is a monolith.

[Deleted]

The only thing i miss from vanila is few days long AV. those massive battles on bridge near alliance base. priceless

But thats all

[Reivur]

What I always found amusing about this debate is its almost an identical parallel to the Resident Evil 0-3 to 4-6 crowd. In particular 3 vs 4 transition.

You will have the same die-hard passion about how great the genre was and how fresh and new it was, with nostalgia completely overpowering the subject or at the very least supplementing it.

You will have people talk about the puzzles, atmosphere and plot and how survival mattered, but then when the developers go to do a shift change and the game becomes more popular, bam, they go on about how it needs to go back to the RE Legacy because that isn't what its about.

Frankly, RE4 was what is Wrath to WoW. It made mana no longer confining to non-healers (and it wasn't that confining to healers either due to borked scaling, but at least that part was an accident according to developers) It removed the majority of the attunements and gating that was crippling guilds for over a year. It made reputations not vital other than a head enchant at best; it tried to provide multiple difficulties so people outside of 25 mans could potentially get to see the content for a change, and when 10 mans had some modest success it later lead to Raid Finder in future expansions so more people could be let into the fold.

Similarly, Resident Evil kept most of its story and themes, removed tank controls that absolutely no one has sincerely been able to justify as good game design, and instead made it more action based to try to draw in a new crowd to mix with the old. They alienated some of the old crowd but frankly 4 was more successful than any of the originals because a good portion of the old fan base still liked it, and it gained a ton of new blood. Wrath did the same with similar costs.

The game is frankly generational. A lot of the people who grew up 'hardcore' don't have the same time they had now. How many times have you seen posts of people whining about how they've played at least ten years and they're disappointed with x or pissed off that they feel pressured into doing y? How many times have people accused newbies as being entitled give it now-now-now types? And suddenly catering to both of these would be a bad thing? I'm not saying its right, but I can see why they'd make things quick and easily accessible-- its because its in demand. And I can agree that sometimes it feels like there's a lack of achievement or 'hard stuff' to do outside of Mythic Raids, but I don't think Vanilla is the solution at all in attaining this.

Similarly, I don't think Tank controls with fucked up camera angles is the solution for RE either. Expectations have shifted for both games.

[Relapses]

Oh I'm sure one was, in fact we have a giant thread on the WoW general discussion about this very topic and it hits a point where it becomes a circle. Eventually a reasonable discussion is brought up, someone derails it with some idiotic argument because nobody likes to read before posting, and it circles from there. Namely in the form of Aehl who instead of contributing to the discussion will pop in every 20 pages, reiterate the same brainless argument of "lol that server is illegal" even though we're discussing whether Blizzard should host their own servers, the merits and drawbacks to doing so, etc.

I myself argued quite a lot in that megathread on this site and that's where a majority of my post count comes from. However the sheer amount of people who will have a reasonable discussion on the other side of the fence is dwarfed tremendously by people who basically pop in, read nothing, spout some idiotic buzzword like "Rose-tinted!" and leave.

I.E on the first page of this thread once of the first responses was literally "Nostalgia." If you want I can start a tally system of "Reasonable Argument" vs "Buzzword" and you'll see precisely what I'm talking about. Actually if you just bother to click on almost any page you'll see what I mean.

I was referencing this thread which has since been locked. I was one of the main contributors in that thread so I have a bit of agency in the argument since my views tend to skew into the "anti-Legacy" territory and I dislike having my views summarized by some of the weakest bulletpoints of the discussion.

Now, if YOU want to have a reasonable discussion about the topic I'm all ears for the next five hours about. I'll show you precisely where I stand, and why with a well written post about it.

The tl,dr of how I see it is that Legacy absolutely has a place in WoW's history and I would love to see it realized again. But I'd rather they do so after they've already decided to stop production on the current retail WoW business model and are either working on its replacement or a completely new MMO project. There's obviously a bit more to it but the simple fact that I don't particularly see the pressing need for Blizzard to be developing Legacy in the short term puts me into the "anti-Legacy" camp. I'd go further into this (in fact, I'd written up quite a bit before deciding against it) but I'm frankly kind of burnt out of the discussion due to the circular, repetitive nature of it.

[Akka]

Vanilla was fun for it's time but is incredibly mediocre in comparison to say MoP or Legion.

That's your opinion, which is subjective (and wrong).

[Relapses]

That's your opinion, which is subjective (and wrong).

...I can only hope you're attempting to be ironic by mentioning that something is both subjective and wrong.

[Akka]

It's fun to see uneducated opinions such as this honestly. Tell me, if "for its time" is such a valid argument, why is it that there's a decent amount of people still playing that iteration of the game upwards of 10 years later? Couldn't possibly be that there are people who just prefer how the game was back then, nah that couldn't be it at all. Everyone HAS to love the flashy mechanics and the free items the game basically tube feeds you. Nobody likes taking pride in their accomplishments and feeling they legitimately earned things.

In case it wasn't apparent, the italics were meant to indicate sarcasm. Your argument has about as much substance as people who write off preference of the old game as nothing more than nostalgia. How about instead of thinking of buzzwords and spitting debunked canned arguments, you actually sit down and think on WHY people liked the older game and understand that the reasons they loved the older game, no longer exist in the current game. Nor will they ever be allowed to exist in the current game with the current playerbase.

Just because something is more flashy doesn't mean it's better at all. Hell, if newer automatically meant better then the recent Ghostbusters remake wouldn't have done so poorly.

Also, your "incredibly mediocre" statement, is that why the game before Blizzard quit announcing their subscriber numbers was on a downward trend and beginning to see numbers they hadn't seen since the release of the game since very late Cataclysm? If you want to pull the "end of expansion" card, look at the first three versions of the game. They only saw increases as the game pushed ahead. Clearly the game has been doing, and still is doing something utterly wrong.

Couldn't agree more (and it saves me the effort of typing the same ).

- - - Updated - - -

...I can only hope you're attempting to be ironic by mentioning that something is both subjective and wrong.

I'm offering the Schrodinger's Morton fork : either tastes are subjective and his affirmation is wrong, or they are objective and his claim that Legion is better is wrong.
Either way he's wrong and Vanilla wins against Legion !