Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Renley]

Thanks for the hard work Effin! <3

Any idea on timeline for trinket sims?

[BendakWoW]

If you have noticed something strange like this, please help us compile a list that we can present to the Simcraft developers. I can modify first post with known problems and poke the simc IRC until changes are in. Reia, Collision or someone else has historically helped us out with fixes if we can give them a checklist and what the correct values/interactions are.

Well, here's the BM ones I am aware of:

- Titanstrike secondary stats are inflated. I checked several other artifacts and it only seems to be affecting this one.
- Qa'pla legendary boots (137227) don't work with Dire Frenzy. It should work with both Dire Beast and Dire Frenzy.
- 2p and 4p set bonuses aren't updated. The 2p and 4p have switched places, and the new 2p should be noted that it increases ALL Dire Beast damage (includes melee attacks, Stomp, and Titan's Thunder) for the full duration of Bestial Wrath -- the "currently summoned" wording is not how it works.
- The Mantle of Command (144326) legendary shoulders don't work.

[Jayeazy]

Collision told me it should be in the nightly, but I remember he did say he assumed it was coded to look at spell dump. If it's hardcoded at 50% then the differences I was seeing must have been other spell dump changes. Is the module referencing the new 15%? Is it ok to use latest nightly?

It was not looking at spell data but they merged the request I made to do it a few hours ago so it will be in the next up to date build. Newest one at this exact moment does not have it.

[Effinhunter]

It was not looking at spell data but they merged the request I made to do it a few hours ago so it will be in the next up to date build. Newest one at this exact moment does not have it.

Great. Thanks!

Do you know if any of the BM issues pointed out by Bendak are going in too? From the history on sc_hunter.cpp, it looks like SV and MM changes have been applied but doesn't look like BM is in there.


Would be nice to be able to at least try out the BM tier changes for 2p and 4p to see if we can tweak that profile upward. The Qa'pla legendary boots bug with Dire Frenzy is also something that I would think would be low hanging fruit (doesn't seem too complicated). Mantle of Command is also something that was expected to be a nice BM upgrade.

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Thanks for the hard work Effin! <3

Any idea on timeline for trinket sims?

As soon as everything gets settled in the module, I will need to add in all the new trinkets and rethink how I'm doing this.

Is it safe to move the horizon to 870+ trinkets for 7.1.5? The list gets harder and harder for people to look through as I add more item levels for each trinket. I need to get back on this problem and figure out how best to stratify the list so people can find what they need to know quickly (preferably without having to make a database-driven website which I really don't feel like hosting/maintaining).

[gixxpunk]

Do you know if any of the BM issues pointed out by Bendak are going in too? From the history on sc_hunter.cpp, it looks like SV and MM changes have been applied but doesn't look like BM is in there.

I just merged patches from Jayeazy and ported SV stuff from issue report.
@Jayeazy
I highly suggest that you should get write access to simc.

[Effinhunter]

I've added a "Known Hunter-related Simcraft Bugs" to the bottom of the first post so we can keep track of what still needs addressing in the Simcraft hunter module. If you have found other errata, please let me or the Simcraft team know.

[Renley]

Great. Thanks!

Do you know if any of the BM issues pointed out by Bendak are going in too? From the history on sc_hunter.cpp, it looks like SV and MM changes have been applied but doesn't look like BM is in there.


Would be nice to be able to at least try out the BM tier changes for 2p and 4p to see if we can tweak that profile upward. The Qa'pla legendary boots bug with Dire Frenzy is also something that I would think would be low hanging fruit (doesn't seem too complicated). Mantle of Command is also something that was expected to be a nice BM upgrade.

- - - Updated - - -



As soon as everything gets settled in the module, I will need to add in all the new trinkets and rethink how I'm doing this.

Is it safe to move the horizon to 870+ trinkets for 7.1.5? The list gets harder and harder for people to look through as I add more item levels for each trinket. I need to get back on this problem and figure out how best to stratify the list so people can find what they need to know quickly (preferably without having to make a database-driven website which I really don't feel like hosting/maintaining).

I'd assume 880+ is safe, esp with H NH being that.

[Effinhunter]

I'd assume 880+ is safe, esp with H NH being that.

Well, I was planning on including pre-NH trinkets to help people understand when to phase out previous trinkets and at what ilvl NH trinkets get better than say an 875 Ethereal Urn. Too high ilvl and it's probably only useful to a few hundred or so hunters who have all 880+ trinkets already. Too low and it gets unwieldy quickly.

The other issue is just the overload that came with the old trinket list (e.g. MM). For my own purposes, I like to have all possible options ranked like this, but I think there may be a more accessible way to stratify this so people can do trinket comparisons. I mean, most of the questions I get about trinkets in game are someone whispering me say 3 trinkets at specific ilvls and asking which two they should put on. I believe this may be primarily due to people being overwhelmed by trying to find all three items in the list (and of course, some laziness because I'm very approachable in game). So, I'm kind of thinking about making a massive list, as previously at EJ and here but also maybe a stratified list that organizes trinkets into ilvl buckets (e.g., 840s, 850s, 860s). So, there might be a mm_st_trinkets_buckets.html that would rank the trinkets from best to worst at the 840 and 845 ilvl, 850 and 855 ilvl, etc. and list the trinkets in the appropriate ilvl range buckets.

There's also the possibility of coloring trinket results so they are easier to find. Before, I had played around with generating yellow, green, and orange when EN was about to be released to show in game, near term and long term. But maybe it will be helpful to color-code according to source. Green might be EN. Blue might be ToV. Purple for Nighthold. White for world quests/heroic dungeons. Yellow for Mythic+. That may help people find things more easily.

I don't know. I'll probably just program something this weekend if I get time, post the results, and wait for the yelling to start.

[Arrol]

The most concise while also still giving the information needed way of doing trinket sims i've personally seen is to sim each trinket at whatever ilvl gives all of them the same dps result.

So an 880 BTI at 200 dps

a 895 Mastery Statstick at 198 dps
a 860 arans with chest at 202 dps etc.

(made up numbers and examples)

You'd probably want the target dps to equalize the results at to be the minimum ilvl for the best performing trinket. and then boost the ilvl of worse trinkets until they roughly equalize with the best trinket. This allows you to see that oh, i need a +20 ilvl BTI to beat arans etc. because a 15 higher BTI is equal to arans in the list etc.



This requires the reader to be able to do some common sense working in their head, and probably wont change the amount of people who just want to whisper withouy doing any work looking for information themself.

Edit: This system also is tricky to compare for 2 trinkets that are both titanforged, for example an 880 arans vs an 895 BTI etc. And the issue is compounded more by some trinkets having a large base stat budget like arcanocrystal, but scaling comparatively lower with increasing ilvl. Something akin to the mage bar graphs is also a great way to do it and nicely visually presented.

[Renley]

Well, I was planning on including pre-NH trinkets to help people understand when to phase out previous trinkets and at what ilvl NH trinkets get better than say an 875 Ethereal Urn. Too high ilvl and it's probably only useful to a few hundred or so hunters who have all 880+ trinkets already. Too low and it gets unwieldy quickly.

The other issue is just the overload that came with the old trinket list (e.g. MM). For my own purposes, I like to have all possible options ranked like this, but I think there may be a more accessible way to stratify this so people can do trinket comparisons. I mean, most of the questions I get about trinkets in game are someone whispering me say 3 trinkets at specific ilvls and asking which two they should put on. I believe this may be primarily due to people being overwhelmed by trying to find all three items in the list (and of course, some laziness because I'm very approachable in game). So, I'm kind of thinking about making a massive list, as previously at EJ and here but also maybe a stratified list that organizes trinkets into ilvl buckets (e.g., 840s, 850s, 860s). So, there might be a mm_st_trinkets_buckets.html that would rank the trinkets from best to worst at the 840 and 845 ilvl, 850 and 855 ilvl, etc. and list the trinkets in the appropriate ilvl range buckets.

There's also the possibility of coloring trinket results so they are easier to find. Before, I had played around with generating yellow, green, and orange when EN was about to be released to show in game, near term and long term. But maybe it will be helpful to color-code according to source. Green might be EN. Blue might be ToV. Purple for Nighthold. White for world quests/heroic dungeons. Yellow for Mythic+. That may help people find things more easily.

I don't know. I'll probably just program something this weekend if I get time, post the results, and wait for the yelling to start.

Maybe a naive question, but do weights heavily swing with increased/decreased ilvl? By this I mean, wouldn't comparing 850 Trinket 1 to 850 Trinket 2 would be more or less the same as 875 Trinket 1 to 875 Trinket 2? Obviously it wouldn't solve all issues, as you'd have scenarios like 850 Trinket 1 vs 855 Trinket 2 vs 870 Trinket 3, but it'd be at least a general guideline to follow.

Alternatively, it'd be neat to have something a little cleaner than just a 'list'. Not sure how much work t would be, or if even possible, but to have the sims/list separated by trinket. Could allow for slightly easier comparisons.

[xvshanevx]

SV: a spec where all secondaries are viable and you can play how you like... until gear with special effects comes into play and it becomes one of the worst performing specs?

I don't even understand these days...

Great post and work btw!

[Effinhunter]

The most concise while also still giving the information needed way of doing trinket sims i've personally seen is to sim each trinket at whatever ilvl gives all of them the same dps result.

So an 880 BTI at 200 dps

a 895 Mastery Statstick at 198 dps
a 860 arans with chest at 202 dps etc.

(made up numbers and examples)

You'd probably want the target dps to equalize the results at to be the minimum ilvl for the best performing trinket. and then boost the ilvl of worse trinkets until they roughly equalize with the best trinket. This allows you to see that oh, i need a +20 ilvl BTI to beat arans etc. because a 15 higher BTI is equal to arans in the list etc.



This requires the reader to be able to do some common sense working in their head, and probably wont change the amount of people who just want to whisper withouy doing any work looking for information themself.

Edit: This system also is tricky to compare for 2 trinkets that are both titanforged, for example an 880 arans vs an 895 BTI etc. And the issue is compounded more by some trinkets having a large base stat budget like arcanocrystal, but scaling comparatively lower with increasing ilvl. Something akin to the mage bar graphs is also a great way to do it and nicely visually presented.

This is basically the kind of thing I was thinking with a database-driven version. The only way to do this is forensically, after running all sims because you won't know beforehand which trinket levels are equivalent and how the trinkets will scale can and does change between patches.

Consequently, the only way I could think of doing this was to run a huge sim of all ilvls, make them selectable, and then take the user to specific breakdowns for each trinket that show the ilvls of other trinkets that are similar.

[Deleted]

@Effinhunter

First of all, ty for all your hardwork towards the hunter community.

Any ETA on when the new sims will be available with the nerfed/buffed set bonus? Cheers.

[Deleted]

This is basically the kind of thing I was thinking with a database-driven version. The only way to do this is forensically, after running all sims because you won't know beforehand which trinket levels are equivalent and how the trinkets will scale can and does change between patches.

Consequently, the only way I could think of doing this was to run a huge sim of all ilvls, make them selectable, and then take the user to specific breakdowns for each trinket that show the ilvls of other trinkets that are similar.

Why not run it similar to how ret paladins have their list?

I have a link to the google doc but haven't posted enough: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11XP8PlopNANrIH7CUJSiOrLEvU3OwokIq9XwaPcU22g/htmlview?sle=true#

[Renley]

Why not run it similar to how ret paladins have their list?

I have a link to the google doc but haven't posted enough: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11XP8PlopNANrIH7CUJSiOrLEvU3OwokIq9XwaPcU22g/htmlview?sle=true#

That's a nifty chart, would love to see that for hunters :O

[Makro]

Why not run it similar to how ret paladins have their list?

I have a link to the google doc but haven't posted enough: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11XP8PlopNANrIH7CUJSiOrLEvU3OwokIq9XwaPcU22g/htmlview?sle=true#

I was going to post the same link since I recently started gearing a ret paladin and found it extremely easy to read.

Also, based on this ptr feedback post and the importance of the lowered focus pool, I've taken Effin's simcraft source from 1st page MM talents breakdown, replaced the item in the neck slot with this, and rerun some of the top performing talents combination to see if there was any difference (using SimC version published @ 2017-01-07 15:54, 10k iter, 5m), with the following results:

Source


This is apparently an 11k dps increase on the best talent setup. I don't know if anything relevant changed in the APL with the latest release or if I messed up somewhere but maybe it could be worth looking into it.

[Effinhunter]

BM tier (Simcraft Source)


MM tier (Simcraft Source)


SV tier (Simcraft Source)


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I was going to post the same link since I recently started gearing a ret paladin and found it extremely easy to read.

Also, based on this ptr feedback post and the importance of the lowered focus pool, I've taken Effin's simcraft source from 1st page MM talents breakdown, replaced the item in the neck slot with this, and rerun some of the top performing talents combination to see if there was any difference (using SimC version published @ 2017-01-07 15:54, 10k iter, 5m), with the following results:

Source


This is apparently an 11k dps increase on the best talent setup. I don't know if anything relevant changed in the APL with the latest release or if I messed up somewhere but maybe it could be worth looking into it.

I haven't run these in 2 days. We had some major changes to tier. Was this a rerun of the tier sim or the non-tier talent sim? Either way, I'll rerun, and check out the neck.

BTW, Mantle and other legendaries appear to have fixes in sims, so I'll try to post some legendary sims today as well.

[Makro]

BM tier (Simcraft Source)


MM tier (Simcraft Source)


SV tier (Simcraft Source)


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I haven't run these in 2 days. We had some major changes to tier. Was this a rerun of the tier sim or the non-tier talent sim? Either way, I'll rerun, and check out the neck.

BTW, Mantle and other legendaries appear to have fixes in sims, so I'll try to post some legendary sims today as well.

No tier included.

[Deleted]

BM tier (Simcraft Source)


MM tier (Simcraft Source)


SV tier (Simcraft Source)


- - - Updated - - -



I haven't run these in 2 days. We had some major changes to tier. Was this a rerun of the tier sim or the non-tier talent sim? Either way, I'll rerun, and check out the neck.

BTW, Mantle and other legendaries appear to have fixes in sims, so I'll try to post some legendary sims today as well.

Which trinkets were used for these sims?

[BendakWoW]

Most of the BM issues I brought up earlier seem to be fixed now (thanks Jayeazy!) with two exceptions:

1. The new Dire Beast 2-piece bonus is not affecting Stomp damage
2. Titanstrike's crit and mastery is still wrong