Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

[Paulosio]

lol yes because a ranged class that can attack well moving like melee should be top dps

Should all 3 hunter specs be dead bottom ? P.S MM doesn't have particularly good movement while dpsing (it's worse in 7.15 than in 7.1) and survival IS a melee spec... Only BM has the movement and even on movement heavy fights it's impossible to compete on raid bosses.

Also it's not about being top DPS... It's about not being miles behind (WITH EVERY SPEC)... even if bottom nobody should be THAT far behind but that is the state hunters find themselves in.

If it was the class you main i'm sure you'd be delighted by not having a single spec that is even close to middle of the pack.

- - - Updated - - -

Part of me wants to say "Well someone has to be at the bottom". It still does not feel right to go from near top to dead last. Ftr I play BM and an enhance shaman, but the changes to MM are very noticeable.

Someone does have to be bottom but no class should find all 3 of their specs at the bottom and whoever is bottom shouldn't be that far off the middle of the pack in dps.

[God Save The King]

No spec is 100k above you on any fight except Affliction on Renferal, Fury on Helya, Ret on Guarm and Spriests on Cenarius/Xavius (which don't really count since they're 100k above several specs). All of those above are outliers as well, 100k above more specs than just hunters.

#SkyIsFalling

[Paulosio]

MM can't do that.

And further to that Survival IS a melee class... His argument is nonsense. Only BM has free movement but then you can argue it loses something over other ranged dps classes due to relying on a pet with travel time.

[Gilthandir]

Here's the truth. Hunters are bad, they're not as bad as the OP is trying to claim. BM and MM are the lowest single target in game, MM has great cleave and AoE potential. Its no where near the top, but its there and its something. There will always be a class at the bottom, there will always be a class at the top. There will always be people complaining that they're at the bottom. MM isn't fun, that's a new viable complaint, but spouting random garbage like "We're 150k dps lower than other classes" isn't going to get problems solved. Here's some statistics from last night just to prove my point:

Mythic Guarm: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...on=2&boss=1962
Mythic Helya: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#boss=2008

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10/ <----Take a look at that one a MM hunter is #1 for all stars in mythic EN. 4 Hunters in the top 10.


So I'm sorry that there's just more bad hunters around now, but the facts are right in front of you. Sorry that you can be gods doing everything anymore, now you're decent at AoE and bad at ST. With arguably the best mobility in the game for a ranged class.

Bold to make an argument with out knowing what you are talking about. All-star points have nothing to do with cross class competition

[Dracodraco]

No spec is 100k above you on any fight except Affliction on Renferal, Fury on Helya, Ret on Guarm and Spriests on Cenarius/Xavius (which don't really count since they're 100k above several specs). All of those above are outliers as well, 100k above more specs than just hunters.

#SkyIsFalling

Good yoke mate.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1853 - Nythendra, 7 classes 100K above hunters (10 above MM).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1876 - Elerethe, 5 classes 100K above hunters.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1841 - Ursoc, 8 specs 100K above hunters (7 classes - frost and fire same class).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1854 - Dragons, 3 classes 100K above hunters.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1877 - Cenarius, 13 specs 100K above hunters (10 classes - only mages and windwalkers are not 100K above hunters, and WW are just BARELY not).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1864 - Xavius, 11 specs 100K above hunters (8 classes).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=1958 - Odyn, 1 class 100K above hunters.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=1962 - Guarm, 6 classes 100K above hunters.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=100&boss=2008 - Helya, 5 classes 100K above hunters.

The only fight that hunters still do moderately well on is Ilgynoth, where only shadow priests are 100K ahead of hunters (and hunters aren't dead-last, like on Odyn, where they're also only beat by one class).

Note that these logs are the maximum percentiles we have right now - that means the best players getting the best RNG over the past two days. Hunters are one of THE most played classes (total recorded hunters in EN over the past 2 days is https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...gregate=amount 7365, only beat by fire mages at 7531, and over 500 ahead of third highest at 6851 for shadow priests. Numbers for TOV are much smaller as it's a harder raid, but similiar - hunters, mages, shadow priests top 3 represented again).

This means you can't use the strawman of "OH BUT MAYBE THEY'RE JUST BAD/UNLUCKY COMPARED TO XYZ CLASS IN THEIR RAID!" - these are literally the best and luckiest of the best and lucky for all specs.

Truth is you could apply a blanket +15% buff to all hunter specs *right now*, and we still wouldn't be top 3 for most fights.

[Traveler Voltin]

Sigh.
Heartbreaking

[Zaydin]

This is ridiculous. Last week, I was regularly in the top half of the DPS in my guilds raids. Tonight, I was scraping the bottom of the pile.

[God Save The King]

snip

All that shows is that classes have a higher maximum deviation from their average.

I assumed this was a discussion of average damage, not maximum deviation. Apologies, I stand corrected. The statement "literally every class 100k dps higher on single target" is still false though, so my original point is still true.

[Magnagarde]

Fact is that this change was unnecessary. They could've lowered the AoE damage if it bothered them/they could've boosted ST damage if it bothered them or could've left it unchanged while buffing some other classes, forcing even good hunters to mid-table.

Instead, they change the entire rotation one week before the next raid release, they make it less mobile(MM), more tiresome and far less rewarding.

[Kwaai]

The statement "literally every class 100k dps higher on single target" is still false though, so my original point is still true.

Oh man, the "lets point out he hyperbole rather than underlying message" argument. Obviously hunters aren't healing bosses, and obviously Hunters can contribute, especially to the vast majority of guilds that aren't pushing for world or even server firsts. Even if the literal statement "literally ever class 100k dps higher on single target" isn't true, what's the point in dismissing it when it's clearly the case that hunters are undertuned? Do you think Blizzard is going to look at this thread and say "literally 100k dps short, lets hit em with the 17.81% buff?" Obviously not.

[Zeth Hawkins]

I think the Martians are in charge of Hunter balancing...

[Charge me Doctor]

Oh man, the "lets point out he hyperbole rather than underlying message" argument. Obviously hunters aren't healing bosses, and obviously Hunters can contribute, especially to the vast majority of guilds that aren't pushing for world or even server firsts. Even if the literal statement "literally ever class 100k dps higher on single target" isn't true, what's the point in dismissing it when it's clearly the case that hunters are undertuned? Do you think Blizzard is going to look at this thread and say "literally 100k dps short, lets hit em with the 17.81% buff?" Obviously not.

Because hyperboles do not contribute to a discussion but contribute to shitposting. If you want your thread to have less shitposting - you shouldn't use hyperboles.

A lot of specs have been changed, without changing your gear/talents whatever according to these changes you'll get poor results. People are still arguing about which trinkets should be used after all. Also comparing WCL and saying "see? everything's shit now!" is at least dumb. I don't recall seeing any mythic helya raid without at least one hunter. They are great at soaking multiple tentacles and do great AoE damage. Comparing DPS on EN encounters is tricky, since gear often allows your to cheese the encounter.
After all you can reroll to a shadow priest (which is popular thing right now for some reason) and compete with 7 more shadow priests (who probably have 50+ traits already) for a raid spot and bitch about AP system being shit or something.

Until NH raid is released i wouldn't judge hunters performance

[Kirbypro]

Because hyperboles do not contribute to a discussion but contribute to shitposting. If you want your thread to have less shitposting - you shouldn't use hyperboles.

A lot of specs have been changed, without changing your gear/talents whatever according to these changes you'll get poor results. People are still arguing about which trinkets should be used after all. Also comparing WCL and saying "see? everything's shit now!" is at least dumb. I don't recall seeing any mythic helya raid without at least one hunter. They are great at soaking multiple tentacles and do great AoE damage. Comparing DPS on EN encounters is tricky, since gear often allows your to cheese the encounter.
After all you can reroll to a shadow priest (which is popular thing right now for some reason) and compete with 7 more shadow priests (who probably have 50+ traits already) for a raid spot and bitch about AP system being shit or something.

Until NH raid is released i wouldn't judge hunters performance

Ok dude, I don't know what planet you live on but hunters have been in the shitter for months now. We were hoping 7.1.5 would change things, things didn't change, so we're getting out our pitchforks and torches. There's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't matter if hunters get brought to raids, we're doing bottom dps. Its unacceptable. Tier isn't going to change anything. Trinkets aren't going to change anything. Nighthold isn't going to change anything.

The only thing that can change hunters is Blizzard fixing the class. That's it.

Hunter dps is like a rock that just sinks to the bottom. We just do dmg, just a number on a chart, we don't do anything cool. We are good at nothing. We do everything a little, a bit of burst, a bit of cleave, a bit of single target, but terrible in general at everything. The one saving grace used to be TS > SW + MS spam for marksman hunter but other classes QQ'ed that it was too op.

There still are way more op dps mechanics in the game. Is it fair that Spriests can cleave the entire world on Cenarius and do 800k dps? No, its not. Is it fair that affliction warlock can cleave both dragons on Dragons of Nightmare at the same time? No its not.

[God Save The King]

Oh man, the "lets point out he hyperbole rather than underlying message" argument. Obviously hunters aren't healing bosses, and obviously Hunters can contribute, especially to the vast majority of guilds that aren't pushing for world or even server firsts. Even if the literal statement "literally ever class 100k dps higher on single target" isn't true, what's the point in dismissing it when it's clearly the case that hunters are undertuned? Do you think Blizzard is going to look at this thread and say "literally 100k dps short, lets hit em with the 17.81% buff?" Obviously not.

No real discussion can come from hyperbole. Case in point this thread. I agree hunters are under tuned. Hyperbole and whining is not how you get good intelligent discussion and solutions however. That's all I was trying to point out

[Millie]

lol yes because a ranged class that can attack well moving like melee should be top dps

Ok and then what do they bring?

"Hey guys can I come to the raid, I can do DPS while moving. It's bad DPS but I can move during it!"

That's not a niche when you're also bad during it, it's a wasted raid slot.

[Charge me Doctor]

Ok and then what do they bring?

"Hey guys can I come to the raid, I can do DPS while moving. It's bad DPS but I can move during it!"

That's not a niche when you're also bad during it, it's a wasted raid slot.

Lets look at very first boss of a nighthold then?
There are numberous amount of low-health adds every 20 seconds. Guess what also just happen to have 20 seconds cooldown? Barrage and Windburst. Also what happen to be the best talent for this encounter? Sidewinders. What else hunters can do to help in this part of an encounter? A tar trap. All of it looks like great tools to me. Way better than, say, having melee-range Dragons Breath, Frost Nova scorpions to kill some melee players, miss a meteor, miss cinders or have your fireball hit a dead body stopping your flow completely.

Also every 25% of lost health boss will amp damage taken, i don't play MM hunter, so correct me if i'm wrong, but they have only a 150 second cooldown that you probably will want to hold to (depending on raid DPS) until boss is weakened. But hey, this DPS cooldown lasts exactly as much as you need - 15 seconds, allowing you to use all your short AoE cooldowns and very long DPS cooldown at max efficiency.

So, yeah, some encounters are great for some classes/specs, i doubt that any guild will dump their hunters in NH, their on demand ranged AoE and AotT are too important to pass on.

But speaking of "attacking while moving" - hunters by far the best ranged "on move" damage dealer, simply because they retain their autoshot and pet (lol) damage, while also spamming their filler.

[twelvethirty]

what a mess

[Kirbypro]

Lets look at very first boss of a nighthold then?
There are numberous amount of low-health adds every 20 seconds. Guess what also just happen to have 20 seconds cooldown? Barrage and Windburst. Also what happen to be the best talent for this encounter? Sidewinders. What else hunters can do to help in this part of an encounter? A tar trap. All of it looks like great tools to me. Way better than, say, having melee-range Dragons Breath, Frost Nova scorpions to kill some melee players, miss a meteor, miss cinders or have your fireball hit a dead body stopping your flow completely.

Also every 25% of lost health boss will amp damage taken, i don't play MM hunter, so correct me if i'm wrong, but they have only a 150 second cooldown that you probably will want to hold to (depending on raid DPS) until boss is weakened. But hey, this DPS cooldown lasts exactly as much as you need - 15 seconds, allowing you to use all your short AoE cooldowns and very long DPS cooldown at max efficiency.

So, yeah, some encounters are great for some classes/specs, i doubt that any guild will dump their hunters in NH, their on demand ranged AoE and AotT are too important to pass on

Doesn't matter if we "CAN" do dps. Every spec has some spell that can do some cleave, some single target. some target switching. The fact is hunters can do ALL of that and still be bottom dps.

[Charge me Doctor]

Doesn't matter if we "CAN" do dps. Every spec has some spell that can do some cleave, some single target. some target switching. The fact is hunters can do ALL of that and still be bottom dps.

So.. you are trying to say that on encounter with hectic movement and low health adds, say, Arcane mage or Destruction warlock will do more DPS than a hunter?
Hunters are by far the best class to deal with damage on the move, their powerful AoE cooldowns are very short, so that's your thing. If a lot of stacked something needs to go down very quickly - hunters are great at doing that. I'm ready to be that first kill of guldan will have at least two hunters to deal with the eyes.

If you are trying to spin the "we can do everything but suck at everything" - that's simply wrong. Hunters do have their clear strong sides and weak sides. I can't see any overlapping strengths with other classes who happen to have less weak points

[Rekuja]

I don't understand why people come here and post shit like "shame you deserve it" "easy class should be at the bottom" blah blah blah

when I see a class get completely butchered I actually feel sorry for them and hope Blizz does something, it's like you guys are forgetting you have hunters in your damn raid composition and if those hunters are nerfed to oblivion it's actually a problem for your guild in general.

People should be supportive instead of bantering over dumb shit.