DH Broke PvP-Fun

[Christonya]

world pvp without the templates stats is the ONLY fun pvp.

Cuz one shotting people is fun...

[Krusza]

Rake, shred, shred, rip, tab, repeat.

Corruption, siphon, agony, tab, repeat.

No class is truly complex any more.

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Wpvp needs the stat template, plain and simple. They refused to do it, and now I refuse to do wpvp because it isn't fun. Wpvp is literally, who sees who firsts and pops all CDs.

lol spread bleeds is hard ?

You missed out bloodtalons, that's the most complicated part of it. Managing utility for your team is also something it shares with ret. If you don't even know how to play your own spec, don't pretend you know how others work. All other melee specs have a 123 rotation they can just sit on someone and tunnel them to death with.

Am I saying it's complex? No, but it's more complex than most specs at the minute, which is funny. I just don't like people who pretend to know what they're talking about.

[Christonya]

You missed out bloodtalons, that's the most complicated part of it. Managing utility for your team is also something it shares with ret. If you don't even know how to play your own spec, don't pretend you know how others work. All other melee specs have a 123 rotation they can just sit on someone and tunnel them to death with.

Am I saying it's complex? No, but it's more complex than most specs at the minute, which is funny. I just don't like people who pretend to know what they're talking about.

Given that they're just using an instant heal and then reapplying rake... blood talons isnt even complicated. But if you wana have some fun, what "Other melee" specs are you talking about that just tunnel 123 into some one, OTHER then DHs.

[judgementofantonidas]

yeh a DH sees you, the class has most mobility than just about any class, so you can't escape, once the DH is on you, meta dead.

sounds fun to me lets bring back wotlk ret as well, at least it would counter DH, can't meta+leech while pala is immune hoj wings RIP.

I beat demonhunters on my prot paladin all the time.
but only in world pvp where apperantly all my decent abilities are not nurfed to the ground.
in instanced pvp the "assigned stats" and removed talents are unbearable.

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Cuz one shotting people is fun...

only thing I have ever been one shot by in world pvp is a boomkin. and that is of course only if he has a rock to hide behind while he winds up to drop whatever that terribly op spell is they use on me.

[serenka]

yeah. I am a caster too and stopped with pvp in LEGION simply because it has become way too annoying.

And instance pvp isn't even that bad, but oh boy World PvP. You don't stand a chance against a melee, they jump you and even if you activate all your damage reduction you are dead within 5 seconds

lol on my DK yesterday i got 3 hit by a WW monk, i should have screenshotted the combat log, he stunned me, did his artifact thing, rising sun kick and a blackout kick and i was dead, i popped ibf during the stun, but still 3 hit. ilvl 560 frost dk world pvp is absolutely dreadful, somehow worse than instanced pvp which is also shit.

i only engage in any world pvp these days because i try and quickly do the pvp wqs for the honor. in the past ive not minded world pvp, its usually been quite fun, but now its just stunned, and you're dead before you can even activate your trinket most of the time, and even if you did trinket, you'd die a second later anyway.

edit: not complaining frost dks are weak, they certainly arn't, just giving my experience on world pvp, usually i just get jumped by someone, stunned and im dead a second later

[Sliske]

Arcane Mage, Frost Mage, Spriest, Destro Lock, Havoc DH, Frost DK

Purge them ffs

[serenka]

I beat demonhunters on my prot paladin all the time.
but only in world pvp where apperantly all my decent abilities are not nurfed to the ground.
in instanced pvp the "assigned stats" and removed talents are unbearable.

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only thing I have ever been one shot by in world pvp is a boomkin. and that is of course only if he has a rock to hide behind while he winds up to drop whatever that terribly op spell is they use on me.

i dont think ive ever been actually 1 shot in pvp, ive been 2 hit before, so far no 1 shots :P

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Arcane Mage, Frost Mage, Spriest, Destro Lock, Havoc DH, Frost DK

Purge them ffs

they just need to lower the damage everyone deals in world pvp, enable templates or something once you engage in wpvp, or at least engage the templates in the arena world quests

[Sliske]

i dont think ive ever been actually 1 shot in pvp, ive been 2 hit before, so far no 1 shots :P

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they just need to lower the damage everyone deals in world pvp, enable templates or something once you engage in wpvp, or at least engage the templates in the arena world quests

world pvp? who gives a shit about that

talking about BGs and arena

also 1 shot has been twisted over the years - it basically means globalled now. I.e, dying in 1.5 seconds or less

[Critical92]

The wod gear system was the best. PvP gear for pvp content and upsclaled when pvp in open world.

You could choose your stats like full mastery/crit subtlety rogue. Even the OP pve trinkets were easy accessible. I started hfc hc with full pvp gear
and got the archimonde trinket after the 2nd kill. In bgs/arena you couldn't use it but in wpvp against the mythraider it was usefull.

Who says that you got rekt by a myth raider while you had max pvp gear, has no idea how to counter your opponent.
I never was instantly rekt by myth raiders. Sometimes it was close, but never a freekill, for me or my opponent.
Myth tanks were another story, but tanks in general are hard to kill in wpvp.

[Krusza]

Given that they're just using an instant heal and then reapplying rake... blood talons isnt even complicated. But if you wana have some fun, what "Other melee" specs are you talking about that just tunnel 123 into some one, OTHER then DHs.

Not really, managing bloodtalons dots on multiple targets isn't particularly easy unless you run Rip and Tear / Elune's Guidance, but then you lose out on DPS overall. The base DPS rotation for feral is undeniably more complicated than any other spec due to how dumbed down they are.

You have to make sure you're using the finishers at the right time so you have enough energy to get to 4 combo points again before the proc runs out or gets dispelled, as you're only using it on 5 CP rips. Predatory Swiftness can be dispelled, so you can't hold the proc for long. If you used your last finisher at a point of low energy, you're going to lose it, whether it runs out of it's fairly short duration, you get randomly stunned, or it gets dispelled. It's this mechanic that made feral that hardest spec to play in PvE in WoD and even more so in Legion. If you fuck this up, which isn't hard to do, you're going to lose out on 50% of your dot DPS. It's hard to explain to someone that doesn't play it. I think it's the lack of general knowledge on how the spec works that makes it seem so "OP", it always seems to be the spec no one knows anything about, yet is always called "OP" since every patch ever.

[Christonya]

Not really, managing bloodtalons dots on multiple targets isn't particularly easy unless you run Rip and Tear / Elune's Guidance, but then you lose out on DPS overall. The base DPS rotation for feral is undeniably more complicated than any other spec due to how dumbed down they are.

You have to make sure you're using the finishers at the right time so you have enough energy to get to 4 combo points again before the proc runs out or gets dispelled, as you're only using it on 5 CP rips. Predatory Swiftness can be dispelled, so you can't hold the proc for long. If you used your last finisher at a point of low energy, you're going to lose it, whether it runs out of it's fairly short duration, you get randomly stunned, or it gets dispelled. It's this mechanic that made feral that hardest spec to play in PvE in WoD and even more so in Legion. If you fuck this up, which isn't hard to do, you're going to lose out on 50% of your dot DPS. It's hard to explain to someone that doesn't play it. I think it's the lack of general knowledge on how the spec works that makes it seem so "OP", it always seems to be the spec no one knows anything about, yet is always called "OP" since every patch ever.

But I am well aware of how it works, I am also well aware of the following:

In WOD feral was energy starved out the ass, because of that it was nearly impossible to mess up the blood talon rotation in a patchwerk fight out side of BL because your energy pooled so slowly that you had all the time in the world to plan ahead mean while other much faster paced specs were spending resources left and right -- The caveat is other specs could make small cumulative mistakes where as a mistake as feral was huge and costly... but again, feral had time to plan ahead while waiting on the painfully slow energy regen (At least for me it was painfully slow).

Now, its also worth noting that in pvp, you cant always work towards the perfect 'pve target dummy' scenario (of waiting to get the best possible blood talons and getting rips off them). Because of this often times, you wana heal an ally, and just use talons on your rakes instead taking a dps hit but helping to keep your allys alive. Probably the most challenging decision any feral has to make is: Do I stop hard cast a regrowth for blood talons RIGHT NOW? Or just keep doing damage?

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I beat demonhunters on my prot paladin all the time.
but only in world pvp where apperantly all my decent abilities are not nurfed to the ground.
in instanced pvp the "assigned stats" and removed talents are unbearable.

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only thing I have ever been one shot by in world pvp is a boomkin. and that is of course only if he has a rock to hide behind while he winds up to drop whatever that terribly op spell is they use on me.

So you havnt had a DH pop meta on you and kill you in a global? Or a warrior? Or any other class? Wpvp is about who sees who first and pops all their CDs.

[Krusza]

But I am well aware of how it works, I am also well aware of the following:

In WOD feral was energy starved out the ass, because of that it was nearly impossible to mess up the blood talon rotation in a patchwerk fight out side of BL because your energy pooled so slowly that you had all the time in the world to plan ahead mean while other much faster paced specs were spending resources left and right -- The caveat is other specs could make small cumulative mistakes where as a mistake as feral was huge and costly... but again, feral had time to plan ahead while waiting on the painfully slow energy regen (At least for me it was painfully slow).

Now, its also worth noting that in pvp, you cant always work towards the perfect 'pve target dummy' scenario (of waiting to get the best possible blood talons and getting rips off them). Because of this often times, you wana heal an ally, and just use talons on your rakes instead taking a dps hit but helping to keep your allys alive. Probably the most challenging decision any feral has to make is: Do I stop hard cast a regrowth for blood talons RIGHT NOW? Or just keep doing damage?

You're making my EXACT point. I can't think of any other melee spec that has to deal with those sort of situations, hence my original response to you saying "all you do as feral is put bleeds on people" yet you clearly understand that's not the case, so why go into that much hyperbole? You sort of just contradicted yourself.

[Christonya]

You're making my EXACT point. I can't think of any other melee spec that has to deal with those sort of situations, hence my original response to you saying "all you do as feral is put bleeds on people" yet you clearly understand that's not the case, so why go into that much hyperbole? You sort of just contradicted yourself.

Because enhance wants to align burst. Frost DKs want to time grips with their snares / disorient, rogues want to time CDs with their CC chains. Every class has that sort of nuance, its just no where near as nuanced as it once was, and feral is certainly not the one that has the most nuance to it. Feral is as simple as applying bleeds to the target, a bad player will get similar mileage out of the class as a good player mean while a bad DK vs a god DK is stifling due to the effectiveness around dark simulacrum and pet micromanagement.

[Krusza]

Because enhance wants to align burst. Frost DKs want to time grips with their snares / disorient, rogues want to time CDs with their CC chains. Every class has that sort of nuance, its just no where near as nuanced as it once was, and feral is certainly not the one that has the most nuance to it. Feral is as simple as applying bleeds to the target, a bad player will get similar mileage out of the class as a good player mean while a bad DK vs a god DK is stifling due to the effectiveness around dark simulacrum and pet micromanagement.

Timing CDs with CC chains is something spec specific? Never knew that.

Frost DKs need to time grips with snares? Damn, that's insane.

You've even just said it in your previous post that it's NOT as simple as "just as applying bleeds", but now you're saying it is again. The difference between a bad feral and good feral is enormous, when it comes down to straight damage and utility usage. There's a reason why I can 1v2 2 bad ferals whereas a DK trying to 1v2 two DKs will just get mongoed by damage, the skillcap is much higher between bad and good. Speaking from experience of queueing many 1v2 sessions with other people. Any DK can do damage, a lot of bad ferals have trouble even getting that down (and the rotation is extremely punishing compared to a DK if you fuck it up), which is the basic core gameplay, with the other stuff coming later.

This is confusing, do you have a dual personality?

[purebalance]

The straw that broke the camels back sort of thing .. PvP has been heading in a direction some did not like, season after season changes that reduce fun for many players.

Well DH is THE best representation of how PvP design has been heading ... DH (Havoc) would have many empty key bind slots on the action bar, its almost scripted how one would do damage, design has been heading away from a 'must think really hard' what to do next towards 'less thinking and more zerging' play style which DH exactly is ..

/sad

PVP has been just as scripted as PVE if not more scripted for a very long time.

[Christonya]

Timing CDs with CC chains is something spec specific? Never knew that.

Frost DKs need to time grips with snares? Damn, that's insane.

You've even just said it in your previous post that it's NOT as simple as "just as applying bleeds", but now you're saying it is again. The difference between a bad feral and good feral is enormous, when it comes down to straight damage and utility usage. There's a reason why I can 1v2 2 bad ferals whereas a DK trying to 1v2 two DKs will just get mongoed by damage, the skillcap is much higher between bad and good. Speaking from experience of queueing many 1v2 sessions with other people. Any DK can do damage, a lot of bad ferals have trouble even getting that down (and the rotation is extremely punishing compared to a DK if you fuck it up), which is the basic core gameplay, with the other stuff coming later.

This is confusing, do you have a dual personality?

No, do you have trouble comprehending ? I keep saying, its not difficult, and that each class has minor nuances that they need to care about. AKA any idiot feral will apply bleeds and rot a team, any good feral will apply better bleeds and rot them faster. Just like any idiot DK can tunnel damage, but any good DK can be incredibly disruptive and steal key spells such as cyclone / divine shield / poly which ultimately can win a game on the spot.

My point with CC chains is that some classes use them, ferals for example don't as they lost cyclone, their form of a "CC chain" is raking from stealth.... and DRing stuns. Compare that with rogues who want to line up several dance charges with blind + sap while the healers trinket is on CD.

[judgementofantonidas]

So you havnt had a DH pop meta on you and kill you in a global? Or a warrior? Or any other class? Wpvp is about who sees who first and pops all their CDs.

nope. but I have seen cloth wearers take completely too much damage from a melee and survive to be even remotely realistic.