Burning Crusade is now 10 years old

[Triks]

Northrend still has much more cohesion than Outland does. just because a jungle was there, doesnt mean there wasnt reason. the other southern zones gave belief that the entire continent wasnt a frozen wasteland. the snow falling down into the zone from the north helped it to blend better.

the devs can and have done a much better job at making zones fit together better since. the only problem is Draenor with the desert line drawn high in the mountains of frostfire. i get that Southern California was the inspiration here, but allowing the snow to lay on the other side of the mountains a bit would have been better. it was still a drastic improvement from Outland.

you can be alien looking and feeling, but still fit together more realistically. while we've no idea what could be on other far away planets, i think they would still follow the blending concepts in real life better, Outland missed that entirely. i feel like im playing on a mixed up Rubik's Cube, the way nothing blends.

quest hubs might be another tiny improvement, but not one i fancy too much. there is room for both concepts to exist in WoW, quest hubs (and linearity) and random player driven quest paths. the latter of which they still need to work on.

still, the quests of TBC were really bland and boring. but the devs had very little experience and player feedback to go off of. TBC could be much better if made today, with new understandings and experience.

i dont think you really get to take a portion of another expac and claim it to be something else just to make your numbers look better. Wrath was Wrath and TBC was TBC.. and by your numbers 20% is a pretty sad number and proof they were moving away from that design and on to something better. it might have taken time to full move away.. but move away they did, for the better.

Northrend still has much more cohesion than Outland does. just because a jungle was there, doesnt mean there wasnt reason. the other southern zones gave belief that the entire continent wasnt a frozen wasteland. the snow falling down into the zone from the north helped it to blend better.

the devs can and have done a much better job at making zones fit together better since. the only problem is Draenor with the desert line drawn high in the mountains of frostfire. i get that Southern California was the inspiration here, but allowing the snow to lay on the other side of the mountains a bit would have been better. it was still adrastic improvement from Outland.

you can be alien looking and feeling, but still fit together more realistically. while we've no idea what could be on other far away planets, i think they would still follow the blending concepts in real life better, outland missed that entirely. i feel like im playing on a mixed up rubik's cube, the way nothing blends.

quest hubs might be another tiny improvement, but not one i fancy too much. there is room for both concepts to exist in WoW, quest hubs (and linearity) and random player driven quest paths. the latter of which they still need to work on.

still, the quests of TBC were really bland and boring. but the devs had very little experience and player feedback to go off of. TBC could be much better if made today, with new understandings and experience.

i dont think you really get to take a portion of another expac and claim it to be something else just to make your numbers look better. wrath was wrath and tbc was tbc.. and by your numbers 20% is a pretty sad number and proof they were moving away from that design and on to something better. it might have taken time to full move away.. but move away they did, for the better.

>Northrend had more cohesion that Outland
Yes it was very cohesive going from a frozen wasteland to a resort to a ruined city to a jungle to a frozen wasteland. WoW's geography is a lot of things, "cohesive" isn't one of them. If you are going to compare cohesion at least compare it to Pandaria or something. Or how about the masterful cohesion of Cataclysm where you went from killing fishes at the bottom of the ocean to helping Indiana Jones to the land of rocks to the Scottish highlands. Truly "cohesive". Oh wait.

>the devs can and have done a much better job at making zones fit together better since.
lol

>you can be alien looking and feeling, but still fit together more realistically.
You must know something I don't. Trolling aside, you are talking about the remnants of a planet that are floating in space. This is as far away from "realistic" as you can get.

>quests hubs are a tiny improvement
They were a MASSIVE improvement. A quest in Honor Hold didn't send me to kill boars in Blade's Edge. If this was Vanilla, this is exactly what would have happened.

>random player driven quests
We had shitty quest design. We never had "random player driven quests" in this theme park MMO.

>TBC could be much better if made today, with new understandings and experience.
"TBC could be better today with the understanding and experience gained in TBC."

>wrath was wrath
Wrath added nothing to the core gameplay until Ulduar and it was solidified in ToC. When Wrath launched it was TBC but easier. Wrath is modern WoW and it was built on the foundations that were laid by TBC.

>and by your numbers 20% is a pretty sad number and proof they were moving away from that design and on to something better. it might have taken time to full move away.. but move away they did, for the better.
Heroic dungeons, arenas, flying, catch-up gear, the honor system, badges from raids/dungeons, daily quests, 10/25-man raiding, specs that weren't complete garbage (some where garbage) and more are part of the legacy of TBC. If you have logged in today, you probably played some form of TBC. Whether or not it is good for them to move away from the TBC model is debatable and that's not the point of this thread.

I could go on and on but the point is this, TBC improved on a lot of the ideas that Vanilla had to offer. Every expansion after it has included it in some way, shape or form. Like it or not, it is the foundation of modern WoW.

[chooi]

TBC was the best expansion until before patch 2.4 (excluding SWP raid)

Isle of Quel'danas started all the Daily Quest bullshit and catch-up mechanics that devaluated previous content completely.

I would not want to play it again today because you had to no-life it to get past T5. Was totally worth it back then, though.

[Granyala]

Man. 10 years of playing WoW.

Insane.

[THEORACLE64]

In comparison to now, I find it's the worst. I also dread Outland; I always choose the quickest way to level through it. For me, the design of levelling is too close to how actually horrible Classic levelling was. After the 1-60 zones were redone, Outland stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

[DesoPL]

I still have no idea, why people hate TBC? For me was the best.

[Santti]

TBC was the best expansion until before patch 2.4 (excluding SWP raid)

Isle of Quel'danas started all the Daily Quest bullshit and catch-up mechanics that devaluated previous content completely.

Catch-up mechanics are one of the best things to happen to wow. While previous content became mostly useless, it patched the shittiest thing WoW had to offer before that: Guild Poaching. Decent geared recruits were a rarity, and gearing a new one more or less from scratch was a pain in the ass, as well as a gamble.

So guilds had to resort to recruiting from other guilds doing same or close to same content.

[Sinndra]

>Northrend had more cohesion that Outland
Yes it was very cohesive going from a frozen wasteland to a resort to a ruined city to a jungle to a frozen wasteland. WoW's geography is a lot of things, "cohesive" isn't one of them. If you are going to compare cohesion at least compare it to Pandaria or something. Or how about the masterful cohesion of Cataclysm where you went from killing fishes at the bottom of the ocean to helping Indiana Jones to the land of rocks to the Scottish highlands. Truly "cohesive". Oh wait.

ok firstly, you made the mention of a jungle at the north pole. im using your example. i could VERY EASILY use BETTER examples of how the dev team has done a much better job since TBC.

and Cata isnt even relevant since the zones are in no way connected, hence they couldnt blend and feel cohesive in any way.

>the devs can and have done a much better job at making zones fit together better since.
lol

since you pointed out above that i should use other expansions to compare cohesion, this is just an absurd statement on your part.

>you can be alien looking and feeling, but still fit together more realistically.
You must know something I don't. Trolling aside, you are talking about the remnants of a planet that are floating in space. This is as far away from "realistic" as you can get.

alien or not, there are laws in place that dictate better blending of environments regardless of what planet its on. so yes, an alien planet will blend more realistically than Rubik's Cube, aka Outland.

>random player driven quests
We had shitty quest design. We never had "random player driven quests" in this theme park MMO.

agreed, thats why i stated this might make a 3rd, tiny improvement over vanilla, yet still far from perfect. however complete eradication of quest hubs isnt the answer. rather a better blending of the 2. how this is clearly obvious to us, and unrecognizable to the devs... i cant figure out.

since the thread topic is about opinion, this isnt one of the bigger reasons for my opinion to dislike TBC.

>TBC could be much better if made today, with new understandings and experience.
"TBC could be better today with the understanding and experience gained in TBC."

it was the experiences gained in the creation of other expansions that makes the idea of TBC created today better than it being created 10 years ago. however we cant change history, i just feel their design understanding at least in the art department to be better than it was in TBC.

Whether or not it is good for them to move away from the TBC model is debatable and that's not the point of this thread.

you kinda didnt really give a point of the thread, unless you simply wanted an echo chamber. your OP just stated TBC was your favorite. i actually gave elaboration as to why i dont like TBC.

i appreciate reasons for opinions more than hollow statements.

I could go on and on but the point is this, TBC improved on a lot of the ideas that Vanilla had to offer. Every expansion after it has included it in some way, shape or form. Like it or not, it is the foundation of modern WoW.

TBC was an experiment of bad ideas that the devs have been moving away from, one by one. i still think their decision to do so is for the better, and i have enjoyed every other expansion since then, more than i enjoyed TBC.

[Granyala]

Catch-up mechanics are one of the best things to happen to wow. While previous content became mostly useless, it patched the shittiest thing WoW had to offer before that: Guild Poaching. Decent geared recruits were a rarity, and gearing a new one more or less from scratch was a pain in the ass, as well as a gamble.

100% agreed. At times, it felt as if our guild was some sort of recruit bootcamp. >.<

Outland will always have soft spot in my heart. I like the bold colors and the memories attached to the zones.

[chooi]

Catch-up mechanics are one of the best things to happen to wow. While previous content became mostly useless, it patched the shittiest thing WoW had to offer before that: Guild Poaching. Decent geared recruits were a rarity, and gearing a new one more or less from scratch was a pain in the ass, as well as a gamble.

So guilds had to resort to recruiting from other guilds doing same or close to same content.

Guild poaching has never stopped. Top guilds have always recruited from the semi-progression guilds and will continue to do so. It just changed its focus from 'geared' recruits to 'skilled' recruits. I would argue that x-realm transfers fueled that 'problem' even more.

[McNeil]

TBC was the first version of WoW that I fully experienced, I started pretty late in vanilla and just barely didn't make it to max level when it launched. Entering Outland for the first time was an amazing experience, such a huge zone that you know from WC3 where a huge battle occurs with the Alliance and Horde combining their forces again the Legion. The questing improved from vanilla, where you can pick up like 10 quests at once and do them all before going back to turn them all in.

The 2 downsides of TBC is Outland itself and the story. I think Outland as a planet is pretty bland, with a lot of empty space and very little life to it. Its supposed to feel that way I suppose, but I prefer the more beautiful zones that WotLK gave me. And the story is literally all over the place while at the same time they don't really tell much or anything at all, at one point you are believed that Illidan is the villain while at another point it goes to Kael. Not to mention how they handled both characters.

But the 2 upsides of TBC are the heroic dungeons and raiding. I'd say TBC had 5-man dungeon difficulty about right, with mobs hitting VERY hard against cloth to the point that you need to coordinate almost every thrash pack and very carefully CC them. Not everyone likes that but it adds up to the challenge, but what I didn't like is that it meant that certain classes would not be invited into groups if they had no CC (RIP shamans). Raiding was just awesome, every raid had 1 difficulty and you knew which raid was supposed to be the entry raid or the mid-tier raid. Karazhan, Black Temple, Sunwell, hell I even loved Battle for Mount Hyjal to re-experience that epic WC3 piece of history.

TBC as a whole is probably my 2nd favorite expansion, only behind WotLK. I'd rate it a 8.5/10.

[Sentynel]

Never liked TBC, visually... All the zones were boring, with the exception of Nagrand, and somewhat Zangamarsh. Just hate the Fel theme.

Only SMV had the Fel theme. The rest of the zones were all distinct in terms of visuals. (One of the best IMHO)

[Triks]

ok firstly, you made the mention of a jungle at the north pole. im using your example. i could VERY EASILY use BETTER examples of how the dev team has done a much better job since TBC.

and Cata isnt even relevant since the zones are in no way connected, hence they couldnt blend and feel cohesive in any way.

since you pointed out above that i should use other expansions to compare cohesion, this is just an absurd statement on your part.

alien or not, there are laws in place that dictate better blending of environments regardless of what planet its on. so yes, an alien planet will blend more realistically than Rubik's Cube, aka Outland.


agreed, thats why i stated this might make a 3rd, tiny improvement over vanilla, yet still far from perfect. however complete eradication of quest hubs isnt the answer. rather a better blending of the 2. how this is clearly obvious to us, and unrecognizable to the devs... i cant figure out.

since the thread topic is about opinion, this isnt one of the bigger reasons for my opinion to dislike TBC.

it was the experiences gained in the creation of other expansions that makes the idea of TBC created today better than it being created 10 years ago. however we cant change history, i just feel their design understanding at least in the art department to be better than it was in TBC.


you kinda didnt really give a point of the thread, unless you simply wanted an echo chamber. your OP just stated TBC was your favorite. i actually gave elaboration as to why i dont like TBC.

TBC was an experiment of bad ideas that the devs have been moving away from, one by one. i still think their decision to do so is for the better, and i have enjoyed every other expansion since then, more than i enjoyed TBC.

>ok firstly, you made the mention of a jungle at the north pole. im using your example. i could VERY EASILY use BETTER examples of how the dev team has done a much better job since TBC.
>and Cata isnt even relevant since the zones are in no way connected, hence they couldnt blend and feel cohesive in any way.
>better cohesion
The only cohesive continent is Pandaria. Even base Azeroth is insane (desert next to the flooded swamp).

>alien or not, there are laws in place that dictate better blending of environments regardless of what planet its on. so yes, an alien planet will blend more realistically than Rubik's Cube, aka Outland
If we go by laws, Outland wouldn't even be a thing. It's just a bunch of remnants from Draenor that EXPLODED.

>it was the experiences gained in the creation of other expansions that makes the idea of TBC created today better than it being created 10 years ago. however we cant change history, i just feel their design understanding at least in the art department to be better than it was in TBC.
They have better tech. TBC started development in 2005/2006. HD textures weren't a thing back then (and that's the least of it).

>you kinda didnt really give a point of the thread
Because I didn't think it needed one except a peace of trivia.

>TBC was an experiment of bad ideas
I take it you want them to remove flying, catch-up gear, arenas, revert back to 40-man, bring back the old honor system, make pallies and shammies faction exclusives (that's not bad actually), heroic and mythic dungeons and daily quests? They already tried to remove the first on the list and that ended well...

[Relapses]

I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to derail into a flame war over whose opinion of the best expansion is superior?

...oh.

OT: TBC was my first expansion but hardly my favorite. Raid attunements were a stupid fucking idea and anybody who thought they were good for the game should be checked for sociopathy by their local physician.

[Triks]

I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to derail into a flame war over whose opinion of the best expansion is superior?

...oh.

OT: TBC was my first expansion but hardly my favorite. Raid attunements were a stupid fucking idea and anybody who thought they were good for the game should be checked for sociopathy by their local physician.

Oh God, anything but that.

[ComputerNerd]

BE's were the worst thing to ever happen to WoW. They attract the worst people, they're always fucking bouncy impatient SPEDs in dungeons, they dilute the cool "monster races" element of the Horde and now they barely make any sense still being attached to it.

Everything arguably gimmicky can attract the worst players.
Demon Hunters, Monks/Pandaren etc.
But that is not the only sort of player they can attract.

So I think it is rather narrow-minded to pick just them out with such an attack.

I have seen that same behavior from many players.
Of many races and class, and from both factions.

[Deleted]

TBC laid so much improvement over vanilla. Hybrid class doing something else than healing. Summon stones. Mount as collection...

Too bad one patch introduce achievment and dailies

[Santti]

Guild poaching has never stopped. Top guilds have always recruited from the semi-progression guilds and will continue to do so. It just changed its focus from 'geared' recruits to 'skilled' recruits. I would argue that x-realm transfers fueled that 'problem' even more.

What? It never stopped, that's a given, but it's no longer the blight it used to be. And how on earth would x-realm make it worse? Recruits are not limited to your own realm anymore, and a guild needs only so many to fill it's roster. There are always decently geared/skilled people available now, thanks to x-realm. That wasn't the case back then.

[DaGhostDS]

achievment

That's WOTLK not TBC.

I wonder how long it'll take for this thread to derail into a flame war over whose opinion of the best expansion is superior?

...oh.

OT: TBC was my first expansion but hardly my favorite. Raid attunements were a stupid fucking idea and anybody who thought they were good for the game should be checked for sociopathy by their local physician.

I agree.. Get attuned for Heroic Dungeon, to farm for Attunement for Raid T4 to get your attunement for t5 and farm t4/t5 again for your T6 attunement..

Now imagine trying to do 25 man content and getting replacement players, big fat nope we lasted from release to until 2 weeks of Zulaman (not to say that was a joke for anyone geared in t6) and i had enough.

[chooi]

What? It never stopped, that's a given, but it's no longer the blight it used to be. And how on earth would x-realm make it worse? Recruits are not limited to your own realm anymore, and a guild needs only so many to fill it's roster. There are always decently geared/skilled people available now, thanks to x-realm. That wasn't the case back then.

I honestly don't see the problem. Hardcore guilds poached from semi-hardcore guilds. Semi-hardcore guilds poached from casual guilds. Casual guilds recruited from the 'noob' base. At least, it secured that there was a constant stream of new players for all types of raid guilds.

Today, thanks to wowprogress and warcraftlogs, players just poach themselves into better guilds.

X-realm transfer obviously brought both positive and negative effects.

Though, basically nothing has changed. Neither for worse nor better. The concept is still the same. Doesn't really matter if you had to replace one of your top-geared players back then or have to replace one of your top-skilled players today.

Not to forget that, Tanks excluded, gear wasn't even that important up to T6 anyway.

[Raptar]

I was a little shocked to read this; time flies by so fast. I remember when it came out, everything was way different back then, also my private life. I'm just saying this because it's a huge deal for me (don't think you guys are open to/for(?) it). I was in the last years of highschool and I was really insecure, like really. I started to play WoW and meet people like me and people that already have been to where I was at that point. My guild and friends felt like family back then (no cliché, really). I learned much from them (really easy to say in one sentence, but it was one amazing and beautiful ride), it unintentional boosted my private life. A thing I never asked for, but to this day I can say it's (WoW) one of the foundations of my life. I'm doing good in the salesmarket and I'm the opposite of what I was 10 years ago, thanks to TBC/WoW. When I think back of it I sometimes get emotional and want to go back to that time and place. The solidarity in WoW was way better back then, something I really miss. It's impossible to explain to people how it was. It was unique, if you experienced it you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong, I still play the game and really love it, but those times were magic.

This game gave me more than I ever could have imagined, it gave me life. I don't want to exaggerate, but it really was one fantastic rollercoaster. One I really never wanted to miss and one that I will remember my whole life. I'm really thankfull to the guys at Blizzard what they have done all those years (and what they made possible) for us and that I could participate in it.

Everyone (maybe even me) is salty these days, but in the end everyone is like this because we care so much (maybe too much) about this game/world. Our characters feel like family members. I never imagined or thought to say the following sentence: but I can't imagine a world where WoW isn't a part of it. I probaly will play this game till they shut the world servers down, with tears in my eye.

WoW gave me so much relaxation and things to look out for, its unexplainable. I don't want to be too sentimental, but the feeling I want to describe is impossible to put in a "verbal jacket".

I hope the WoW community will stay as strong as it is and that we will support eachother no matter what. This game changed lives, and it still does. TBC really is one of the pearls of the WoW universe.