Wellp, my opinion of VDH have changed.

[Saverem]

So I'm a tank guy, have a BrM, Prot P, BDK, and VDH and before a few days ago I wasn't really digging VDH because I thought the rotation and the CS mechanic to be just a shittier version of the BDK's DS.


Well, that was before I tried out Fracture, Spirit Bomb, and Soul Barrier. Those abilities, especially Fracture, really made the spec fun. It went from my least favorite tank to play out of all my tanks to the most fun. I went from using CS a lot (I hate the fact that it saps all of my Pain if I have 30-60) to barely using it at all, instead I just use Fracture and use the souls to power my Barrier and Spirit Bomb.

It sort of turns the souls into a Combo Point or Monk Chi system, very cool.


Now my VDH isn't very geared, he had about 800 ilvl on Saturday and by Sunday night I got him up in the 845s (also because I unlocked his 3rd relic and lucked out and got 2 860 pieces from the world boss) so I don't know if those talents are valid for actual hard content (M+ or raiding), I did use them to single tank Guarm and Helya, but that was LFR.


Are those 3 talents valid for high end tanking? Because if not, then I will be very sad as they are what took VDH from my least favorite to easily my favorite.

[Sock]

They're all valid for high end tanking, though I'd say they tend to be a little more situational. Fracture is fine if you're specifically running Spirit Bomb or Soul Barrier, otherwise Feed the Demon tends to be better for overall survivability. Spirit Bomb is also fine and typically picked for smoother overall healing, whereas Fel Devastation is burst healing (and still the preferred talent for that tier).

Soul Barrier is currently fairly solid though, and I can see it being picked the majority of the time once folks start running Nighthold.

[pay928]

I used those 3 in NB run this week and then Fracture/Fel Dev/Soul Barrier for Arcway+10. I'll probably try out a 3212233 build next time do a raid on DH. Not sure about Mythics as only tank guild's Casual/Alt raid but Soul Barrier & Fracture both seem very strong for EN & ToV. Fracturing when not tanking especially.

[Saverem]

They're all valid for high end tanking, though I'd say they tend to be a little more situational. Fracture is fine if you're specifically running Spirit Bomb or Soul Barrier, otherwise Feed the Demon tends to be better for overall survivability. Spirit Bomb is also fine and typically picked for smoother overall healing, whereas Fel Devastation is burst healing (and still the preferred talent for that tier).

Soul Barrier is currently fairly solid though, and I can see it being picked the majority of the time once folks start running Nighthold.

I can see Spirit Bomb being good for M+ runs on trash packs but not as valuable for single target fights, like raid boss fights.

Although, depending on your DPS it could potentially add another 50k+ or so HPS to yourself, which is not bad.

[Deleted]

Spirit bomb is not that great in raids. Otherwise I use fracture and soul barrier like you do.

[Deleted]

Is better on 2 or more targets to spirit bomb x5 instead of soul cleave?

[Absintheminded]

They're all valid for high end tanking, though I'd say they tend to be a little more situational. Fracture is fine if you're specifically running Spirit Bomb or Soul Barrier, otherwise Feed the Demon tends to be better for overall survivability. Spirit Bomb is also fine and typically picked for smoother overall healing, whereas Fel Devastation is burst healing (and still the preferred talent for that tier).

Soul Barrier is currently fairly solid though, and I can see it being picked the majority of the time once folks start running Nighthold.

I just don't see the value in Feed the Demon when, with a small amount of haste, you can achieve practically 100% uptime. Furthermore, you lose the additional parry if you overlap DS.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I'm having a lot of fun with my DH too atm. Can't really progress on my pally until NH (looking forward to tomorrow!), so I've spent most of the last week tanking on my DH. Tanked his first 12 key tonight, just missed the timer but it was overall derps not limitations of the spec by any means. 876 atm and looking forward to opening that chest in the morning.

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I just don't see the value in Feed the Demon when, with a small amount of haste, you can achieve practically 100% uptime. Furthermore, you lose the additional parry if you overlap DS.

I find myself timing spikes as a DPS cd as much as DR. With Razor Spikes I'm using it right before I Shear/Sever/Soul Cleave. Razor-spiked Soul Cleaves on skittish mobs works wonders.

Not saying this is what everyone should do, as I'm still learning the spec, but this is what I've been playing with.

[Delimit]

Fel Devastation is burst healing (and still the preferred talent for that tier).

It's a bit of a misnomer to call it "burst healing", when it's a fraction of your HP pool. It heals for less than a Soul Cleave crit, and roughly half the value of a single melee hit from some bosses.

[Veiled Shadow]

It's a bit of a misnomer to call it "burst healing", when it's a fraction of your HP pool. It heals for less than a Soul Cleave crit, and roughly half the value of a single melee hit from some bosses.

The healing has been fixed to be able to crit now, so it does do considerably more than pre-7.1.5. In my gear it does roughly 1,3-1,5M raw healing on average which is more than a single boss autoattack, let alone half of one. You are correct in that it is not much of a burst heal, but saying that it heals for less than a Soul Cleave crit is a bit misleading.

[pay928]

I just don't see the value in Feed the Demon when, with a small amount of haste, you can achieve practically 100% uptime. Furthermore, you lose the additional parry if you overlap DS.

This isn't true at all. You have 2 charges. This doesn't mean you have 12s of constant DS with 12s cooldown. After 20-30s of constant physical damage, it'll get closer to 50% uptime. It would need to be a 6s cooldown from 15 to be 100% uptime. In most situations, you can have it down and cover it with other abilities but 100% uptime isn't feasible until 4piece.

[Delimit]

The healing has been fixed to be able to crit now, so it does do considerably more than pre-7.1.5. In my gear it does roughly 1,3-1,5M raw healing on average which is more than a single boss autoattack, let alone half of one. You are correct in that it is not much of a burst heal, but saying that it heals for less than a Soul Cleave crit is a bit misleading.

It's not misleading at all. Raw healing != effective healing. Do you have a log example of a kill where you're regularly healing 1.5m of effective health per channeled FD? I can show you hundreds of examples of getting 1.2m-1.3m effective Soul Cleave heals.

Helya can melee for over 2m. Average effective FD heal is generally less than 1m on average.

[Tinary]

Soul Cleave is kinda the bread and butter of this spec so its ill advised not to use it. It heals alot and it does sweet damage, specially aoe. Tho, if you have fun, play like you want, glad you be enjoying the VDH.

[Saverem]

Soul Cleave is kinda the bread and butter of this spec so its ill advised not to use it. It heals alot and it does sweet damage, specially aoe. Tho, if you have fun, play like you want, glad you be enjoying the VDH.

Yes, I use the 30ish Pain version of it to AoE. I usually pull by leaping into a pack with Flame Crash talent which applies the Flame Sigil, then I use D.Spikes and Immo. Then I Shear once or twice until I have enough Pain for a CS, and I'll use that.


Question: Does Fiery Brand work with ALL damage? (physical and magical) or just physical? Also, if I put it on say a Warlock as he puts UA on me, will that UA DoT ticks be affected even after Fiery Brand wears off? Also guessing this is a great ability to use on Odyn's spear chuck.

[Absintheminded]

This isn't true at all. You have 2 charges. This doesn't mean you have 12s of constant DS with 12s cooldown. After 20-30s of constant physical damage, it'll get closer to 50% uptime. It would need to be a 6s cooldown from 15 to be 100% uptime. In most situations, you can have it down and cover it with other abilities but 100% uptime isn't feasible until 4piece.

You're right, I wasn't thinking clearly. >.<

[Tinary]

Question: Does Fiery Brand work with ALL damage? (physical and magical) or just physical? Also, if I put it on say a Warlock as he puts UA on me, will that UA DoT ticks be affected even after Fiery Brand wears off? Also guessing this is a great ability to use on Odyn's spear chuck.

Fiery brand only reduces the damage the target of the debuff does. For example, it does reduce the UA and Odyn's spear but it does not reduce the UA after the debuff is gone and Odyn's spear Aoe hit (the magic one). It works on all damage except the enviroment ones (Area of effect), not directly targeting you (Raidwide damage) and certain spells that ignore the damage reduction. Mostly with FB, I've just wasted it few times to test it out on if it works on sthing or not. From what I saw, it does not work on Guarms flashing fangs/multiheaded if you are not holding the threat. Could have been just me but I did not see any damage reduction from it while I OT'd.

[Saverem]

Fiery brand only reduces the damage the target of the debuff does. For example, it does reduce the UA and Odyn's spear but it does not reduce the UA after the debuff is gone and Odyn's spear Aoe hit (the magic one). It works on all damage except the enviroment ones (Area of effect), not directly targeting you (Raidwide damage) and certain spells that ignore the damage reduction. Mostly with FB, I've just wasted it few times to test it out on if it works on sthing or not. From what I saw, it does not work on Guarms flashing fangs/multiheaded if you are not holding the threat. Could have been just me but I did not see any damage reduction from it while I OT'd.

Good to know, thanks. So if I'm ever tanking Guarm, I'll ask to be the one holding threat. Seems like it's a bug though, if I have the FB debuff on him, it should effect ALL of his abilities on me regardless of whether I'm holding threat or not.

[pay928]

Good to know, thanks. So if I'm ever tanking Guarm, I'll ask to be the one holding threat. Seems like it's a bug though, if I have the FB debuff on him, it should effect ALL of his abilities on me regardless of whether I'm holding threat or not.

FB is designed to be targeted damage, which is annoying. If you're not the one Guarm has targeted, then it behaves similar to a prot paladin's Avenger's shield as it just picks a secondary target within range so tt does not reduce that damage. I find it stupid as I don't believe Prot Paladin's Artifact ability works like this and it's AE but I could be wrong about that.

[Saverem]

FB is designed to be targeted damage, which is annoying. If you're not the one Guarm has targeted, then it behaves similar to a prot paladin's Avenger's shield as it just picks a secondary target within range so tt does not reduce that damage. I find it stupid as I don't believe Prot Paladin's Artifact ability works like this and it's AE but I could be wrong about that.

I'm guessing the talent "Burning Alive" only spreads FB's damage component and not its DR component?

[pay928]

I'm guessing the talent "Burning Alive" only spreads FB's damage component and not its DR component?

It spreads the DR as far as I know and guides that I've read (top of here, IV, WoWhead, WoWhead spell comments).