I really WANT to love Legion, but I feel like Blizzard keeps getting in their own way

[Claymore]

Well, I would like to add that while a lot of people may like change, I would argue that evidence suggests the majority of players actually don't.

Or rather, didn't -- before they left the game.

Subscriptions have been plummeting every since Cataclysm, and I feel that's when we started seeing the most radical re-designs. I'm not saying that class-change is entirely to blame, but I certainly think it's a factor.

What I want from an expansion is to see cool, new locations, experience some great Lore, learn some new boss encounters, and attain loot. Completely re-designing my class does not need to play a part in that. The occasional new ability is fine -- I actually agree that Blizzard needed to prune a few abilities from some classes -- but it seems like they're completely re-inventing classes sometimes, rather than just refining them.

Like I said, with the Death Knight, I don't enjoy how they play, and in many ways, it doesn't even feel like the same character I had in Wrath, or even in MoP (seems funny that, even though people have mixed feelings of MoP's content, everyone seemed pretty content for how their classes PLAYED).

[Kelathos]

The class changes have forced me out of my main. Landed on Hunter... nope, now I'm leveling my Mage.
These changes to MY core gameplay make it difficult to stay in WoW.

[Akka]

You're missing the point that not everybody has the same mindset of you.

No I'm not, if I'm using very extensively played games like football and chess it's precisely to point that it's not just about me, but it's common to tons of people. You, on the other hand, seems to have completely missed that.

- - - Updated - - -

/thread and 10char

Except for the fact that Blizzard wanting to maximize profits doesn't translate in them wrecking the game with constant changes. Which kinda kills the entire reason to make such an argument.

[shonist]

You're the one saying they should change class each expansion, make up your mind.
And that you don't like cerebral past-time is not the point, which seems to have flew high above your head.

Yes, indeed, if you read carefully, what im saying is, changing classes is not changing the game. So yes, No need to change the game, and need to change the classes. .

You said you are still liking chess. (without changes)
im still liking wow (with class changes).

and let me use your words

"You're the one saying" that there is no need to change the game.
And wow, is a game, in wich they change the classes. so NO NEED TO CHANGE THE GAME!!

[Akka]

Yes, indeed, if you read carefully, what im saying is, changing classes is not changing the game.

That's a pretty bold claim to make.

[Pua]

At this point we've got quite a few highly educated and experienced players who have been with the game longer than the current crop of devs. Ignoring feedback is a stupid thing to do. And no, I don't mean the kind of "feedback" where someone just QQs about their class. I mean the intelligent, well-written, well-considered feedback with data to back it up.

Well... Yeah. This is well put.

The excuse from the blue community, or even developers themselves, is more frustrating than anything else - and you know what excuse I'm talking about:

Unfortunately, getting to real feedback through the noise on the forums is extremely difficult.

It's simply not fucking true. Throughout the Warlords beta, and it was repeated in Legion, the best threads were self-moderated by a community that was determined to make sure this excuse was consigned to the dustbin. Not only could Blizzard choose participants for their own beta, the players themselves decided to ensure that feedback was thoughtful, consistent and easy to access.

The result?

Umpteen specs were released utterly unfinished, and no explanation was forthcoming. Players concluded the only thing they could conclude; access to feedback isn't the problem. The problem is a design team that isn't actually interested in it. And as you also point out, "class fantasy" was the convenient excuse for too much objectively crap design.

The saddest part of this sorry saga is that players who find out that even constructive, helpful and well-expressed feedback is going to be ignored will do one of two things - they'll give up, and everyone loses, or they start to get abusive. Neither result is desired, and the second plays into the excuse I've already posted for you above.

Dealing with the class design team has become utterly futile.

A lot of different points in this topic, but I want to highlight the quote above. 36 specs is a lot to invest fully in. Playing through the campaigns of each class it is blatantly obvious that they were too ambitious. Many of the spec campaigns are half-baked, some are even close to being copy-paste from others. When players then are deeply devoted to their spec after playing 10+ years, they can't help but feel short-traded. The quality of the specs in Legion spans a HUGE variation. So people need to keep in mind that when they comment on someone's perception, one person might be looking at it from a disappointed spec perspective and the other from a satisfied perspective of one of the specs that got sufficient love.

Your post was a big 'un but, because you were specifically responding to me here, I just wanted to say...

I agree. I think trying to go through 36 specs was hilariously over-ambitious and did an already incapable team no favours whatsoever. In the end, it just made a group of players even more resentful of a class-design team that simply jumps from one flunked project to another.

[Claymore]

Yes, indeed, if you read carefully, what im saying is, changing classes is not changing the game. So yes, No need to change the game, and need to change the classes. .

You said you are still liking chess. (without changes)
im still liking wow (with class changes).

and let me use your words

"You're the one saying" that there is no need to change the game.
And wow, is a game, in wich they change the classes. so NO NEED TO CHANGE THE GAME!!

Changing class is changing how you interact with the game, though, so it kind of *is* changing the game.

It's not that change is inherently bad, but change for the sake of change is. If they need to refine things, balance things, or just spice things up a little bit, I think that's all in good fun. Making my character feel completely alien, however, is not.

Like I said, all of the character classes and specs now feel unfamiliar to me, and from what I've tried, I'm not enjoying any of them. There have been many classes and specs I've enjoyed over the years, but because they keep "re-inventing" them, I can't lean on any of them.

[SirCowdog]

Well... Yeah. This is well put.

The excuse from the blue community, or even developers themselves, is more frustrating than anything else - and you know what excuse I'm talking about:

Unfortunately, getting to real feedback through the noise on the forums is extremely difficult.

It's simply not fucking true. Throughout the Warlords beta, and it was repeated in Legion, the best threads were self-moderated by a community that was determined to make sure this excuse was consigned to the dustbin. Not only could Blizzard choose participants for their own beta, the players themselves decided to ensure that feedback was thoughtful, consistent and easy to access.

The result?

Umpteen specs were released utterly unfinished, and no explanation was forthcoming. Players concluded the only thing they could conclude; access to feedback isn't the problem. The problem is a design team that isn't actually interested in it. And as you also point out, "class fantasy" was the convenient excuse for too much objectively crap design.

The saddest part of this sorry saga is that players who find out that even constructive, helpful and well-expressed feedback is going to be ignored will do one of two things - they'll give up, and everyone loses, or they start to get abusive. Neither result is desired, and the second plays into the excuse I've already posted for you above.

Dealing with the class design team has become utterly futile.

And the worst part is that whenever someone starts to break down legitimate criticism of Blizzard's behavior, they're often attacked by rabid fans who are, literally, unable to see anything wrong. Which contributes to the Blue excuse you quoted.

I think what astounds me most is that a non-paid, non-professional player can read enough forums and watch enough videos while playing the game in their off time between work and sleep, to gain enough insight to see the flaws with the game. But a paid, full-time employee of Blizzard who's JOB IT IS to find this stuff, can't.

There's either something very very wrong in their process for determining problems, or they're simply ignoring the data that's presented to them. I suspect the latter.

[Kazgrel]

Revert all classes back to MoP SOO

Activate flying


There I just made the greatest wow expnasion

Would almost reconsider reinstalling/resubbing for that.

[Pua]

There's either something very very wrong in their process for determining problems, or they're simply ignoring the data that's presented to them. I suspect the latter.

Sadly, the evidence has overwhelmingly stacked up in favour of this conclusion.

I'm not the type to argue for job losses, but if class design is going to improve then Chris Zierhut needs reassigned; several members of his team clearly do, too.

[Claymore]

Honestly, I'm not trying to make this into a bitch-thread. Rather, I just wanted to point out that I think the constant changes are what's contributed to my own dissatisfaction with the game, and maybe if it's a common trend with others, maybe that's something Blizzard can work on?

I, for one, totally support the notion of "class fantasy", and while I'm not sure where I stand on some of the specifics of Artifacts, I can safely say that I like the *IDEA* of them, or at least Class-exclusive equipment. And also, I don't think every class has to be completely comparable in every situation (as long as they excel in other situations; sort of like how DK Tanks were a little squisher in early Wrath, but were amazing at mitigating magic damage).

And yeah, I get that sometimes, things will get thrown off balance a little bit. I should hope they don't allow things to be unbalanced for too long, but as long as I'm having fun and enjoy *PLAYING* my character, I'm fine with my character performing as a slight disadvantage to someone else's (within reason, of course).

Like I said, I genuinely believe Blizzard has a standard policy to "Change the way everyone plays with each Expansion", and if so, I believe it's a detrimental policy to hold. If you decided things need a little spicing-up, or something just isn't performing as it should, then that's fine, but change for the sake of change just makes me feel completely disconnected from *ALL* of my characters, as I do now.

[hyphnos]

Honestly, I'm not trying to make this into a bitch-thread. Rather, I just wanted to point out that I think the constant changes are what's contributed to my own dissatisfaction with the game, and maybe if it's a common trend with others, maybe that's something Blizzard can work on?

I, for one, totally support the notion of "class fantasy", and while I'm not sure where I stand on some of the specifics of Artifacts, I can safely say that I like the *IDEA* of them, or at least Class-exclusive equipment. And also, I don't think every class has to be completely comparable in every situation (as long as they excel in other situations; sort of like how DK Tanks were a little squisher in early Wrath, but were amazing at mitigating magic damage).

And yeah, I get that sometimes, things will get thrown off balance a little bit. I should hope they don't allow things to be unbalanced for too long, but as long as I'm having fun and enjoy *PLAYING* my character, I'm fine with my character performing as a slight disadvantage to someone else's (within reason, of course).

Like I said, I genuinely believe Blizzard has a standard policy to "Change the way everyone plays with each Expansion", and if so, I believe it's a detrimental policy to hold. If you decided things need a little spicing-up, or something just isn't performing as it should, then that's fine, but change for the sake of change just makes me feel completely disconnected from *ALL* of my characters, as I do now.

IMO, you're absolutely right. The question is why do they think that is necessary and how are they oblivious to the fact that at any given point the current customers they have are obviously either happy or at least somewhat satisfied with how a class/spec plays and by changing that they are probably going to piss off more people than they are going to bring back non-customers by changing things around all the time. This of course doesn't even consider the trade-off of using resources to revamp the gameplay instead of just adding more content.

[caervek]

Revert all classes back to MoP SOO

Activate flying


There I just made the greatest wow expnasion

Reinstate 10m Mythic and watch subs fly past 10m XD

[Lei]

IMO, you're absolutely right. The question is why do they think that is necessary and how are they oblivious to the fact that at any given point the current customers they have are obviously either happy or at least somewhat satisfied with how a class/spec plays and by changing that they are probably going to piss off more people than they are going to bring back non-customers by changing things around all the time. This of course doesn't even consider the trade-off of using resources to revamp the gameplay instead of just adding more content.

It's the "middle child syndrome".
Big brother (cyclical players). He is the BIG brother, the foundation of the family.
Little sister is the favorite child (hard core scene), she is the cutest and she needs the most attention (raids), also she is good, she does what mom and dad tells her to do. She can do nearly anything she wants, maybe there is some limit (split runs, endless mythic farms, clever use of game mechanics).
And then there's the middle child aka everyone else, they have to suck up things and live with it, because mom and dad have no time for them. They are in a grinder all the time. So if Big bro is happy with changes all the time, and lil sis is also okay with it, then the middle child must suck up and do what the others do.

There were times when it was good to be the middle child in wow tho.

[ItachiZaku]

For the entirety of Warlords of Draenor, I played but could never find a class I truly enjoyed.

I loved MM. Really, really enjoyed it. I was almost certain it would be my first 110 in Legion and I would spam the mess out of prestige farming. When the pre-event started and the changes... I played a bit with those changes... right now, the only reason that MM hunter is level 101 is due to the 12th anniversary free level they gave everyone. I just... no.

[Deleted]

I am currently at a point at playing legion (after i came back late) where its really becoming grindy.

I would love a game thats less about grinds. Even if it is a mmorpg, not every single piece of lore needs to be gates behind "run dungeons for 1000 times"-quests.

[Stricks]

I love class changes. If they never evolved the game would be stale AF.

[SirCowdog]

Sadly, the evidence has overwhelmingly stacked up in favour of this conclusion.

I'm not the type to argue for job losses, but if class design is going to improve then Chris Zierhut needs reassigned; several members of his team clearly do, too.

I do wonder, sometimes, how difficult it is to actually tell if they're doing a good job or not. I mean....think about it for a moment. You have a fanbase which, largely, is ready to accept and defend ANY changes to the game so long as it's got the Blizzard label on it. How do you, as a developer, determine what's actually good or not if your profits continue to remain steady, even in the face of massive numbers of threads criticizing your decisions?

It seems simple to us, looking in from the outside as the trainwreck happens. But I wonder if things might be so clear if we were on the inside, looking out through windows so heavily encrusted with dollar signs and having our view blocked by throngs of white-knights?

- - - Updated - - -

I love class changes. If they never evolved the game would be stale AF.

You have a point, actually. Imagine a WoW where nothing ever changed? It would have quickly stagnated and died a long time ago. I think the real problem here is not that Blizzard is changing the game constantly, but rather the rate at which those changes happen, and the nature of HOW those changes happen(ignoring feedback).

I wonder what would have happened if, instead of changing the fundamental playstyle of each class every expansion, Blizzard instead just added new specs or new classes. Or sub-specs maybe? Letting people play the style they'd gotten used to, but also proving the option to try something new each new expansion as well.

[Zardam]

I do. It's increadibly boring. WoD was many times more fun and reactive.

But because its legion and legendaries+AP, rerolling isn't an option.

Ret is king right now, with meaningful changes in its talent lineup that can greatly alter the way the spec performs and plays.

I agree that every xpac classes need to be redesigned, keeping some core flavors around for context. What I have an issue with is blizzard devs decided to do this AGAIN 4 months into their xpac.

[Deleted]

soo true, its a joke atm with the class balancing.