PVP vs PVE - Why PVE limits a player

[Highwhale]

PvP victories based on current class balance. Teams of not the best specs will NEVER win against team of current best PvP specs (I'm talking about equal skill players). In PvE skill means all - even if your spec sucks now you still can beat mythic if you good enough. So PvP was and always will be about class balance. If you spec OP you will beat even more skilled players - if you spec sucks you will lose against even lower skilled players.

PS I'm mostly PvE player and play PvP only for fun (when get bored from low mythic+ farm).

PS Fun fact - most skilled and dedicated PvP players back in vanilla was PvE players who farmed MC/BWL.

[Deleted]

In PvE skill means all

Not true, skill is important, but it is not the only factor.
Skill means all can not be applied whenever there is unavoidable damage in an encounter, and an enrage.
Skill is all in dark souls, i have seen people killing hard bosses naked an armed with a spoon.

[Raelbo]

Twisting facts doesn't change reality

If you're going to make such a daft claim then I suggest you point out which facts I twisted. My post wasn't even about facts, it was about the application of reason and logic to your ill-conceived initial assertion.

[PowerOfTwo]

Speaking as raider.... i actualy decided to dip my toe into PvP this expansion, mostly because the lock PvP skin matches the Mythic set for some... reason.

1st problem, the pvp comunity is incredibly tight lipped when it comes to finding information, took a while to find a well constructed source of information in regards to build.
2nd "problem" pvp IMEDIATELY felt familiar they raiding does in an "if -> then" kinda way. Cooldown poped? CC or kite or pop your defensive, CCed + teammate pressured, break, enemy CCed? pop CDs. I've been kicked? Ok i can cast without worying now. I've poped my CDs? Unending Resolve.... it's fairly formulaic the way a boss might be, the only differance is i'm not as familiar by heart with everything every class can do like i am with alot of raid mechanic iterations over the years, but those are learnable and gues what there are only 12 classes to learn on the other hand i've learned and beat.... hundreds of raid bosses over 12 years...

PS: I will concede addons don't hold your hand quite as much as do in raiding sometimes... ooooooooon the other hand please show me a raid of gladiators, fuck it actualy show me a RAID of people that can beat M Archimonde with the default UI then we'll talk how easy PvE is.

[Raelbo]

Ok ill bite. Personally i dont know why it's so hard for these nerds to admit pvp actually takes skill, while pve just takes a bit of research. Im a pve 1st type of player, in fact i literally have not done single bg or arena in legion, but you have to be a goddamn retard to even try to argue that pve is harder in any possible way.

So, let me get this straight, you have only ever experienced PvE, but still believe you have the authority to judge which is harder? And you call other people "goddamn retards"....

Personally I think getting into a pissing contest between the two is stupid. At the end of the day, whether you PvE or PvP, if you're doing it competitively, you're competing against other players. In PvP you do so by means of direct interaction. In PvE you may not interact directly, but it is other players you are racing against.

It's a bit like comparing boxing against gymnastics and then trying to argue that one takes more skill than the other because in boxing you're competing against another person but in gymnastics it's just doing a bit of research and then copying someone else's moves. Pfft.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The whine from both sides in here is extremely strong. Just play what you want and let others do the same. Any argument against that is just stupid in my opinion.

[Highwhale]

Not true, skill is important, but it is not the only factor.
Skill means all can not be applied whenever there is unavoidable damage in an encounter, and an enrage.

I meant skill of whole team/raid. Every person in raid/team contribute for win - even if your spec lowest tier tank/heal/dps you still can beat the game with your skill.

Best example is Brewmaster - non skilled player makes it garbage tank for raids. Skilled one make Brewmaster equal to current top tanks like bear/paladin.

In pvp your OP spec can carry your bad skill but your good skill cant carry bad spec if you play as one.

[Deleted]

Wow PvP is to real PvP what JR varsity is to the NFL. That is all.

Play a real PvP game then come talk to us.

I have been trying some instanced PVP in wow only this expansion, and i find it quite good, so care to point me in the direction of even better PVP games? (MMORPGs if possible)

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

So, let me get this straight, you have only ever experienced PvE, but still believe you have the authority to judge which is harder? And you call other people "goddamn retards"....

Personally I think getting into a pissing contest between the two is stupid. At the end of the day, whether you PvE or PvP, if you're doing it competitively, you're competing against other players. In PvP you do so by means of direct interaction. In PvE you may not interact directly, but it is other players you are racing against.

It's a bit like comparing boxing against gymnastics and then trying to argue that one takes more skill than the other because in boxing you're competing against another person but in gymnastics it's just doing a bit of research and then copying someone else's moves. Pfft.

Yeah because apparently pvp is a brand new thing that came out with legion. L2read smart ass.

[Deleted]

can't believe people think playing vs the predictable boss mechanics is harder than playing vs real players

[Deleted]

Well I've seen some dumb threads but fuck me you're an overachiever.

[Deleted]

can't believe people think playing vs the predictable boss mechanics is harder than playing vs real players

Who are in no way predictable... right?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

PvP definitely improves you as a player.

No it doesn't, anymore than running LFR makes you a better player. Your own ability and desire to learn are what determine that.

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I have been trying some instanced PVP in wow only this expansion, and i find it quite good, so care to point me in the direction of even better PVP games? (MMORPGs if possible)

The nature of PvP means MMORPGs are among one of the worst places to engage in it. The more other factors, such as gear come into play, the less the impact your individual skill has on the outcome. HotS and Overwatch are my PvP games, outplaying your opponents is the only way to win in them.

[Deleted]

No it doesn't, anymore than running LFR makes you a better player. Your own ability and desire to learn are what determine that.

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The nature of PvP means MMORPGs are among one of the worst places to engage in it. The more other factors, such as gear come into play, the less the impact your individual skill has on the outcome. HotS and Overwatch are my PvP games, outplaying your opponents is the only way to win in them.

Thank you for your reply, i am not interested in MOBAs, but i will give Overwatch a try then.

[Joey Ray III]

No it doesn't, anymore than running LFR makes you a better player. Your own ability and desire to learn are what determine that.

and if you do want to learn, PvP is a much better way to go about it. PvP = use your entire class toolkit or suck, it teaches you good habits and can help you get rid of some bad ones acquired by doing PvE only.

that's from my perspective anyway, I never truly learn to play a class well until I do some PvP on it (which I otherwise hate btw).

[tikcol]

Yes, because a "PvP master" is most probably a highly skilled player, in the same way i expect a "PvE master" doing perfectly fine in PVP because he is also a highly skiled player, but not because doing PVP provides skill to the players.
Also be carefull with "PvP" masters, they end up crying in Blizzcon when they are raped by truly "PVP masters".
The problem of PVP is that you are only as good as the people you play against regularly.

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Nope, not even close.
A Boss encounter difficulty is highly dependant on raid team, ilevel, quality of gear even with the same ilevels, and in this expansion even traits count, it is not a fixed difficulty, even with all the mentioned above the same, differences in class composition between the groups, change the encounter difficulty.

You made no sense whatsoever mate

[Thelxi]

Hm, not sure about this generalisation. PvE is about memory, reaction and coordination on a much larger scale than PvP. At least for dps and healers. Especially at cutting edge progression the smallest individual mistake is paid for by the entire group. DPS have to switch targets fast and smartly, while healers have to do everything everyone else does plus some. Also there is a homogeneity in roles: most dps do the same exact thing regardless of spec etc. The one exception in PvE I would say is tanks, who often have much less to do than the other roles (again, talking only about high levels of play not easy content. In easy content tanks usually carry the most responsibility relative to dps and healers).

PvP is more about memory, reaction and smaller scale coordination. Mistakes are easy to make, but that goes for both sides and thus are not always as punishing. There is a lot more heterogeneity between classes and specs in PvP, with some specs having a much easier time than others playing at similar ratings.

Overall I would say that both PvP and PvE at the highest levels of play are actually pretty similar in regard of what cognitive resources they require. The biggest difference imo is the scale of coordination required. PvE is probably easier for people that follow orders well, and pvp for people that communicate well. PvP is definitely more forgiving than PvE though.

[Cuppy]

This is pretty much false on every level.

First of all, it is possible to make a PvE objectively more difficult than fighting against the best player in the world. By definition of course, said encounter would be impossible until the best player became sufficiently skilled to beat it. Just because it is trivial to beat an obsolete PvE encounter does not mean anything about the skill required to beat the currently most difficult encounter.

Secondly, you fail to understand what the "requirement" is when it comes to PvE skill. If you want to be the best PvPer in the world, you have to have more skill than any other player. If you want to be the best PvEer in the world, exactly the same thing applies. The race for world first is not about beating an objective encounter at all. It's about achieving that objective faster than anyone else, which makes it subject to the skill of your competition...just like PvP.

If you want to know which actually requires more skill, it's the one with the most skilled players, because in both forms of the game it's really just other players you're competing with, the only difference is that in PvP you're competing directly with your competition, whereas in PvE you're competing indirectly.

This! THIS! If this was reddit, I'd give you gold!

[Terahertz]

Honestly in previous expansions I'd say the average PvP player had to utilize their full kit far more often than the average PvE player would have. But with abilities being pruned and with interrupts being much more utilized in PvE, as well as more mechanics that force you to position yourself properly in PvE, I'd say it's relatively even now.

[bubbadubba]

Not just "something" I vanquished the biggest ones Blizzard has ever spawned

Aren't you the guy that thinks LFR should be the only difficulty based of very flawed logic ?

I can only assume you vanquished the biggest ones blizzard has ever spawned on the easy difficulty or after the content was irrelevant. That or you are just trolling.