Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Blayke]

FWIW, I was looking at Stjern's rogue guide tonight. Two things caught my eye. Firstly, he's still recommending DS over anticipation.

He also had this to say about weaponmaster: "Weaponmaster is now the go-to. The reason for this being a DPS gain over Master of Subtlety is due to the extra energy regen from WM procs counteracting the Master of Shadows nerf from 30 to 25 energy."

Now I get that WM may be the better choice at this point, but what does he mean when he says it gives us more energy regen. Is he just referring to the free attack? Granted, that extra attack costs us nothing, but that's not exactly the same as actually having more energy regen.

[Teaklog]

FWIW, I was looking at Stjern's rogue guide tonight. Two things caught my eye. Firstly, he's still recommending DS over anticipation.

He also had this to say about weaponmaster: "Weaponmaster is now the go-to. The reason for this being a DPS gain over Master of Subtlety is due to the extra energy regen from WM procs counteracting the Master of Shadows nerf from 30 to 25 energy."

Now I get that WM may be the better choice at this point, but what does he mean when he says it gives us more energy regen. Is he just referring to the free attack? Granted, that extra attack costs us nothing, but that's not exactly the same as actually having more energy regen.

If eviscerate strikes twice due to weaponmaster, then you get the energy regen from your finisher moves from it too (I'm assuming he means, or he is referencing the artifact ability working similarly)

[Blayke]

If eviscerate strikes twice due to weaponmaster, then you get the energy regen from your finisher moves from it too (I'm assuming he means, or he is referencing the artifact ability working similarly)

Ahh, forgot about that. Thanks.

[cface]

I performed better with anticipation when i was testing during farm this week. didn't waste any CP or shadow tech procs - SB and shadow tech is where anticipation really shines for us, using anticipation now i notice just how often shadow tech is proccing and it's crazy.

Now if i could get the bracers i'd be a happy camper

Im hesitant to trust the sims on this atm.

How is your dance rotation with anticipation with SB up? SS > SS > SS > dump > SS dump dump?
And outside SB? Still same or do you go for 4 SS then dumping?

[elcapone]

you guys are running anticipation with shadow focus correct? How is dps looking? I haven't played in a month, depending I should come back, if sub is enjoyable. Those boots cucked me hard, but I have bracers.

[Diyiez]

I don't think there's a way we can replace subterfuge atm. Dps looking good, tbh.

[elfporn]

How is your dance rotation with anticipation with SB up? SS > SS > SS > dump > SS dump dump?
And outside SB? Still same or do you go for 4 SS then dumping?

it's tough to get three SS in a row with SB up.

What i do is a build to 8+ then i do ss/finisher/ss/finisher/ss/finisher until i run out, then build back up to 8+.

It's still a work in progress though.

Outside of SB i try to keep it the same 4 SS 1 finisher when possible.

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you guys are running anticipation with shadow focus correct? How is dps looking? I haven't played in a month, depending I should come back, if sub is enjoyable. Those boots cucked me hard, but I have bracers.

subterfuge is still irreplacable, probably won't use anything else for the entire expac.

Bracers are BiS now, if you have boots too, using anticipation should keep the rotation feeling pretty smooth. You'd have to compete for top spot, but mostly should be able to get it, or second behind DH/dk/Spriest, depending on fight length/aoe; All depends on that second SB use. For you 4-4.5 minutes is best killtime.


Also, on the topic of convergence of fates - it looks like the formula for it is something as simple as 3*cooldown time. Which would explain slightly lower than 9 ppm for outlaw (AR cd reduction trait), the 9ppm for sub, and ~3ppm for assassination, depending on MA relics.

so yea, CoF explained, as far as i can tell.

[Blayke]

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it's tough to get three SS in a row with SB up.

What i do is a build to 8+ then i do ss/finisher/ss/finisher/ss/finisher until i run out, then build back up to 8+.

It's still a work in progress though.

There is no doubt that anticipation makes the rotation feel a HELL of a lot smoother. But should I be concerned that both Icy Veins and Stjern's guide are still recommending Deeper Strat over Antic? Granted Icy Veins is not always spot on with this stuff, but when I see both of those sources in agreement it makes wonder if this is really optimal.

[elcapone]

it's tough to get three SS in a row with SB up.

What i do is a build to 8+ then i do ss/finisher/ss/finisher/ss/finisher until i run out, then build back up to 8+.

It's still a work in progress though.

Outside of SB i try to keep it the same 4 SS 1 finisher when possible.

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subterfuge is still irreplacable, probably won't use anything else for the entire expac.

Bracers are BiS now, if you have boots too, using anticipation should keep the rotation feeling pretty smooth. You'd have to compete for top spot, but mostly should be able to get it, or second behind DH/dk/Spriest, depending on fight length/aoe; All depends on that second SB use. For you 4-4.5 minutes is best killtime.


Also, on the topic of convergence of fates - it looks like the formula for it is something as simple as 3*cooldown time. Which would explain slightly lower than 9 ppm for outlaw (AR cd reduction trait), the 9ppm for sub, and ~3ppm for assassination, depending on MA relics.

so yea, CoF explained, as far as i can tell.

I mean if I don't have boots, but only bracers for dps legendary is the rotation still smooth and can you compete dps wise?

[Jaronicity]

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There is no doubt that anticipation makes the rotation feel a HELL of a lot smoother. But should I be concerned that both Icy Veins and Stjern's guide are still recommending Deeper Strat over Antic? Granted Icy Veins is not always spot on with this stuff, but when I see both of those sources in agreement it makes wonder if this is really optimal.

I know dummy testing is anecdotal, but Anticipation has proven the better talent for me while doing some off the cuff testing. I don't think I play either completely optimally, but with wasting next to no combo points, Anticipation does appear to be the better choice with the -5% to finishers on DS since patch. Not wasting CPs especially double ST procs is really awesome. It's a difference of about 6-8k. I only have the boots, not sure if that would play into DS or Anti being better or worse.

Never used Anticipation until today's random testing.

[elfporn]

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There is no doubt that anticipation makes the rotation feel a HELL of a lot smoother. But should I be concerned that both Icy Veins and Stjern's guide are still recommending Deeper Strat over Antic? Granted Icy Veins is not always spot on with this stuff, but when I see both of those sources in agreement it makes wonder if this is really optimal.

Nope, you shouldn't be concerned at all. DS is still good of course.

That said, i'm competing against an equally skilled rogue using boots/bracers and running DS. I have ring/belt and using Anticipation, I sometimes beat him, but usually i'm just barely behind him (60sec SB is tough to beat) I did beat him on trilliax last night though.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...qmPaV#fight=11

It's anecdotal. The two talents are very close, and it's my opinion that with the 4p and CoF anticipation will solidly edge out DS.

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I mean if I don't have boots, but only bracers for dps legendary is the rotation still smooth and can you compete dps wise?

Absolutely. Except for DH....

[elcapone]

Nope, you shouldn't be concerned at all. DS is still good of course.

That said, i'm competing against an equally skilled rogue using boots/bracers and running DS. I have ring/belt and using Anticipation, I sometimes beat him, but usually i'm just barely behind him (60sec SB is tough to beat) I did beat him on trilliax last night though.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...qmPaV#fight=11

It's anecdotal. The two talents are very close, and it's my opinion that with the 4p and CoF anticipation will solidly edge out DS.

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Absolutely. Except for DH....

thanks bruh, you are great

[shaunika123]

If eviscerate strikes twice due to weaponmaster, then you get the energy regen from your finisher moves from it too (I'm assuming he means, or he is referencing the artifact ability working similarly)

have you ever had WM proc evis? cos im pretty sure it doesnt work on it.
it's always an extra 10-15 on shadowstrike but never evis

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=60
check it out not a single evis proc on our sub rogue


but yeah anticip only sims higher for me if i have the setbonus as well

[Rixan]

We're 8/10 through heroic NH and overall I'm satisfied with how sub is performing in the raid. I'm finishing in the top 3-4 on the meters on nearly every fight, with a raid size of 28.

Now it does help that I have the cloak which is a legitimate bump in aoe damage on certain fights. I'm actually parsing 90% on some despite only having 40 artifact traits unlocked.

I also just nabbed my two piece bonus, haven't had too much time to test it in game but my sims bumped from 480k to 515k

[Kortiah]

Went up 4% total dps on Sims grabbing the 2pc, even loosing 4% Pawn per piece (according to my own up-to-date Pawn string).

I definitely felt the difference in fights, especially cleave fights (like Botanist, Gul'dan P1, ...) You can weave Evis in-between NBs. Singletarget you basically blast the boss with Evis.

I still have no useful leg (Valeera leg yayyyy), but I can easily see myself top 5 on bosses where people don't whore useless damage on everything (like Skorp).

[cface]

it's tough to get three SS in a row with SB up.

What i do is a build to 8+ then i do ss/finisher/ss/finisher/ss/finisher until i run out, then build back up to 8+.

It's still a work in progress though.

Outside of SB i try to keep it the same 4 SS 1 finisher when possible.

ok, so just to detail it out, to make sure I'm on the right path.

-5sec/SoD -> -1/pot -> 0/SB + 2xSS (6cp) -> NB
dance
2xSS (6cp) evis
2xSS (7cp) evic
dance
2xSS (8cp) evis
1xSS / evis / 1xSS / evis (till I run out of CP after an evis) and just keep it up like that
Goremaw @ 1-2 sec remaining of SB
I assume vanish after this to get back charges

Normal dance rotation with anticipation, is still 2xSS/evis/2xSS right?

What I want to know is, what do you do when it's a minute left of SB cooldown, and you are empty of charges? You prepare yourself for SB by having atleast 2? Do you use sprint to vanish? Is there a trick in this sprint, to turn of autoattack, a macro ?

Thanks a lot if you can be arsed answering all my annoying questions, I really wanna nail sub dps and keep it competitive.

[Deleted]

ok, so just to detail it out, to make sure I'm on the right path.

-5sec/SoD -> -1/pot -> 0/SB + 2xSS (6cp) -> NB
dance
2xSS (6cp) evis
2xSS (7cp) evic
dance
2xSS (8cp) evis
1xSS / evis / 1xSS / evis (till I run out of CP after an evis) and just keep it up like that
Goremaw @ 1-2 sec remaining of SB
I assume vanish after this to get back charges

Normal dance rotation with anticipation, is still 2xSS/evis/2xSS right?

What I want to know is, what do you do when it's a minute left of SB cooldown, and you are empty of charges? You prepare yourself for SB by having atleast 2? Do you use sprint to vanish? Is there a trick in this sprint, to turn of autoattack, a macro ?

Thanks a lot if you can be arsed answering all my annoying questions, I really wanna nail sub dps and keep it competitive.

I am a fan of ensuring I have at least 2 Dances ready for Shadow Blades. There's a few ways in which I accomplish this:

1) Vanish/Goremaw's/Backstab are the main options to build up combo points to help recharge (obviously! :P).

2) As you have suggested: Sprint is excellent especially if you can time it with some sort of mechanic that you would be doing no dps in anyway (sometimes you may have to combine this with cloak to ensure no damage is taken). I personally find it easy enough to just turn my back to the target and sprint, rather than using some sort of macro to stop autos.

3) Adds, if you know there's going to be phases where there's adds these are a great way to build up Dance charges between SB. If your team has enough aoe to handle the adds without you, just spam (without Shadow Dances) Shuriken Storm -> Finisher until at 3 charges, don't worry too much about the 3x damage on Shuriken Storm, I switch back to single target at this point and focus on the boss. Of course if your team needs you to be doing more aoe, you should carry on using Shuriken Storm with Shadow Dance.

As an example of point 3) being useful, I used this strategy on Spellblade Aluriel (normal) last night and this was the result:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=rankings

You can see although I was only 90% percentile on overall damage, when you look at boss damage only it shoots up to 97% percentile. Do bear in mind that is only out of 700 other parses though.

Hope this helps you.

[elfporn]

ok, so just to detail it out, to make sure I'm on the right path.

-5sec/SoD -> -1/pot -> 0/SB + 2xSS (6cp) -> NB
dance
2xSS (6cp) evis
2xSS (7cp) evic
dance
2xSS (8cp) evis
1xSS / evis / 1xSS / evis (till I run out of CP after an evis) and just keep it up like that
Goremaw @ 1-2 sec remaining of SB
I assume vanish after this to get back charges

Normal dance rotation with anticipation, is still 2xSS/evis/2xSS right?

What I want to know is, what do you do when it's a minute left of SB cooldown, and you are empty of charges? You prepare yourself for SB by having atleast 2? Do you use sprint to vanish? Is there a trick in this sprint, to turn of autoattack, a macro ?

Thanks a lot if you can be arsed answering all my annoying questions, I really wanna nail sub dps and keep it competitive.

Your rotation during the opener/SB is much more fluid.

Much of the time it's SB>SS>NB>SS>SD>SS>evisc>SS>evisc>SS>evisc>BS>SD>SS>evisc>SS>evisc>SS>evisc>BS>SD>repeat.

Shadow Techniques procs are much more noticable in the rotation with anticipation, on the opener one SS usually results in 5cp because of shadowtech (if not you SS again of course).

I prefer to go into SD with 5cp during SB, which is why i sneak in a backstab between dances(only if needed). It facilitates 3 SS, 2 evisc.

I'm still experimenting with goremaw - ideally with any CD you want to use asap to get in as many uses as possible, but on the pull with bloodlust, SB, and chaining dances it seems wasteful for goremaws to be used there. I like it at the end of SB for now, it's a good place for the burst of energy and cp. And yes vanish afterward if you need dance charges.

You should have a difficult time running out of charges. I think i ran out on heroic krosus last night at the end - i had 23 seconds left and had to pump out backstabs to get that dance back. The rest of the time vanish and goremaws sholud sustain you in any dry periods. Preparing for that second/third SB with 2 dances is good, having goremaw available for the energy regen is better.

Sprinting for vanish is a gimmick, do it when it fits into the fight, if you have the legendary shoulders it's worth it to find creative ways to work into the fight.

Get an SD>SS macro working, with it you should pool to 75* energy before dance. *80 if you have the arcway neck.

Pro tip for Tichondrius - shuriken storm once or twice as the bloods run through boss to the tank in the back of the room.

Edit:

Dammit trollollo, i had two badass pulls on aluriel from the 2p nightblade+adds, and then on the kill i just had a shit pull. Top damage to like middle of the pack.

You're right though, anytime aoe is available is a time to generate charges.

[Emophia]

Hows sub in PVP now? Every rogue I see is muti.

[Maelstrom51]

have you ever had WM proc evis? cos im pretty sure it doesnt work on it.
it's always an extra 10-15 on shadowstrike but never evis

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=60
check it out not a single evis proc on our sub rogue


but yeah anticip only sims higher for me if i have the setbonus as well

Yes Weaponmaster works with Eviscerate.

If you're looking at the damage of Weaponmaster in warcraftlogs, note that only procs from Shadow Blade show as "weaponmaster" damage. Everything else is rolled into their respective skills.