[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

No thing in this world will force me to farm HoV.

but it´s such a beautiful instance

[dnicks17]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...tinfo=Trinkets

haw haw

I'm curious what they're using with Horn.

My 860 FCM still sims about 13k higher than an 860 Horn.

Thought it might be Simc version. It's 22k higher on the newest nightly build(715-02) too.

- - - Updated - - -

The max FCM parse in that link is still significantly higher than the Horn's.

I wonder if there's just a lot more bad FCM parses bringing the average FCM dps down.

[TITAN308]

I wonder if there's just a lot more bad FCM parses bringing the average FCM dps down.

391 parses for HoV

4,000+ for FCM

I've met a lot of really bad ret paladins so far.

There is your answer.

[Wrecktangle]

• I was fine when they nerfed the cape. It really was too strong.
• I was fine when they nerfed the belt. It really was too strong.
• I was not exactly happy when they nerfed the ring. It didn't feel very strong, and now it feels a lot weaker. Noticeably weaker, almost don't even notice it honestly.
• I was somewhat fine when they nerfed DI. It was definitely a bit too strong at 2.5 mins, but I would have liked to have seen a little less than 4. I've found it very valuable back when I was chasing Keystone Master.
• I'm not excited about them nerfing the Convergence of Fates specifically for Ret.
• I'm not particularly excited about our tier set. It's boring, bland and not terribly powerful.

This just shows me that they don't have an actual simulation program for use in QA, let alone a QA program at all. They simply develop and push to the public to test. Once they public tests, they proceed to ignore any and all feedback until it's live. Why? I can't say, but any business process I've ever developed doesn't look this juvenile that's for sure.

Something that needed to be nerfed by 70% means no one tested it. Simply put, it never should have went live. Where I work something like would get you fired because you cost someone a lot of money. Same thing with the belt, not a single QA tester thought hmm this seems out of line. It's stronger than the other DPS legendaries we are nerfing to bring in line? Again, no one tested this.

Lastly, the reason this trinket is so strong for us is the same reason FCM is. How come FCM is allowed to remain as it is? Why wasn't their tuning consistent? Again, because they don't actually have any test and tuning processes in place.

I was really looking forward to Nighthold, but now it looks like its back to farming VoW and MoS for trinkets so I can compete in a raid where I don't care for any gear. Awesome.

[Redcape]

I think it is too early to say the sky is falling about Convergence of Fates. I did some napkin math on my own toon with the new proc rate and I think it will rate to be a 4.6% dps increase. I have Chain of Thrayn, for reference, and 3 Crusade relics. Most other trinkets have their specials in the 3% range, so I think Convergence is likely to be top tier even with the 70% nerf. I used the wowhead 4.2 RPPM listing for my calculations, (less 70%, of course), so this may change when and if we get more precise data.

Prior to the nerf it was absolutely ludicrous, probably good enough to be BIS even ignoring the strength, which was quite overpowered. I wouldn't be surprised if a few other specs ended up getting nerfs on Convergence too, but I think we were the outliers.

[Deleted]

I think it is too early to say the sky is falling about Convergence of Fates. I did some napkin math on my own toon with the new proc rate and I think it will rate to be a 4.6% dps increase. I have Chain of Thrayn, for reference, and 3 Crusade relics. Most other trinkets have their specials in the 3% range, so I think Convergence is likely to be top tier even with the 70% nerf. I used the wowhead 4.2 RPPM listing for my calculations, (less 70%, of course), so this may change when and if we get more precise data.

Prior to the nerf it was absolutely ludicrous, probably good enough to be BIS even ignoring the strength, which was quite overpowered. I wouldn't be surprised if a few other specs ended up getting nerfs on Convergence too, but I think we were the outliers.

Problem lies within the lenth of a fight. If the Boss dies the Moment you click Crusade, then it's almost worthless. Specific Dmgphases affect it too.
I don't know timers/length of Nighthold fights but unless it's in those timers or gives you a full Crusade it won't do much.

[Redcape]

I don't know timers/length of Nighthold fights but unless it's in those timers or gives you a full Crusade it won't do much.

I think this will determine the strength of Convergence. If your particular fight parameters make the new Crusade timing really good, Convergence will be the best. Maybe that is due to hard fight duration/berserk timers, or maybe just a burn phase you need Crusade for. If those times line up with our regular 2m Crusade, then Convergence will be bad. In any case it will be great for some specific fights and strats, and probably bad in others. Which is, I think, a good place for it to be.

[Deleted]

I'm curious what they're using with Horn.

My 860 FCM still sims about 13k higher than an 860 Horn.

Thought it might be Simc version. It's 22k higher on the newest nightly build(715-02) too.

- - - Updated - - -

The max FCM parse in that link is still significantly higher than the Horn's.

I wonder if there's just a lot more bad FCM parses bringing the average FCM dps down.

I wonder if u every took time to wonder why Horn is ranked so high.
Let me give u a hint;


AoE.

[dnicks17]

I wonder if u every took time to wonder why Horn is ranked so high.
Let me give u a hint;


AoE.

I can't see Skorp skewing the results that much.

[OrcsRLame]

I can't see Skorp skewing the results that much.

It's more than just Skorp. Every boss except Trilliax has some form of cleave, and some of them line up with Crusade in a really good way. Like Botanist. 3 Target cleave for the entire duration of Crusade.

Honestly, if HoV is strong on AoE, then it may be worth it.

[Lumineus]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...tinfo=Trinkets

haw haw

Meanwhile my n00b Warrior I just leveled last week is giddy because he got an i900 Draught from his Timewalking bag. (I also find it curious that Marfisi's Censer is missing from their trinket evaluation for Warriors)

[dnicks17]

It's more than just Skorp. Every boss except Trilliax has some form of cleave, and some of them line up with Crusade in a really good way. Like Botanist. 3 Target cleave for the entire duration of Crusade.

Honestly, if HoV is strong on AoE, then it may be worth it.

I realize that. (Posting this while AFKing H Elisande trash )

I just don't see enough AoE beyond Skorp for Horn to make an appreciable difference.

[BAIRD]

----- snip-----

scratch that I'm retarded and can't read or something

[miffy23]

Yeah how dare we complain about 2 raids in a row where a 5 man trinket is better than 95% of the raid's offerings. The fucking nerve right?

Think you missed the boat, because that's not what I was talking about in the slightest.

[Deleted]

Think you missed the boat, because that's not what I was talking about in the slightest.

Well the nerf was specifically aimed at ret paladins and not just a slight it with the nerf bat. No it was a serve pummeling with a kick in the nuts for good measure. So yes it was to gimp us and our chance for meaningful gear progression aside from the 4 set bonus in nighthold. Overall our gear progression looks quiet dire with our BiS trinket as a 1 in 18 chance which has to roll titanforged on top the second being a Worldboss drop again having to titanforge.
You could argue that EoC is BiS but that would be for single target only which is next to none existing in NH.

[Deleted]

If a melee need to be reined in, it is rogues, like always.

What is it that Rogues bring to the table that other melee specs do not (Retribution in this case)?

I can't think of any advantages of having a Rogue in the group, but know for a fact that I have saved many wipes, deaths and generally tough situations being a Paladin. Is it the mobility?

[Deleted]

What is it that Rogues bring to the table that other melee specs do not (Retribution in this case)?

I can't think of any advantages of having a Rogue in the group, but know for a fact that I have saved many wipes, deaths and generally tough situations being a Paladin. Is it the mobility?

just a short list:
cloak
cheat death
sprint

[Deleted]

just a short list:
cloak
cheat death
sprint

Cloak is a magic equivalent to BoP, whilst not being a raid utility unless you misdirected to soak something. If that were the case why not misdirect into a BoP/DS? Much more relaxed window to play with.

Cheat death is comparable to DI, but has a longer cooldown and is only damage reduction for 3s, rather than full immunity for 8s.

Sprint is only as useful as Steed, in my opinion. Burst of Speed, Shadow Step, Grappling Hook and Shadow Strike are all nice gap closers for their respective specs though.


I don't mean to argue.. I just honestly can't see the logic beyond plain archaic memery.

[Deleted]

Cloak is a magic equivalent to BoP, whilst not being a raid utility unless you misdirected to soak something. If that were the case why not misdirect into a BoP/DS? Much more relaxed window to play with.

Cheat death is comparable to DI, but has a longer cooldown and is only damage reduction for 3s, rather than full immunity for 8s.

Sprint is only as useful as Steed, in my opinion. Burst of Speed, Shadow Step, Grappling Hook and Shadow Strike and all nice gap closers for their respective specs though.


I don't mean to argue.. I just honestly can't see the logic beyond plain archaic memery.

most non tank debuffs are magical in nature therefore limiting bop usability massively so not comparable to clock for that we need our bubble. If we do want to clear magical debuffs we have to sacrifice our cheat death. Our sprinting options are limited. If we do need more than one sprint every 45 seconds we have to again sacrifice our cheat death.
So in short we might be able to fill in the same slots as rogues but not quiet as well. Curse of the jake of all traits.

[OrcsRLame]

What is it that Rogues bring to the table that other melee specs do not (Retribution in this case)?

I can't think of any advantages of having a Rogue in the group, but know for a fact that I have saved many wipes, deaths and generally tough situations being a Paladin. Is it the mobility?

Since @CptKnusper covered most of the important parts of your question I'm not going to bother responding to that. What I will say, is that you missed the point of what I was saying entirely.

First off, I am not saying to nerf rogues. I am saying that historically, with the same toolkit they have now, rogues have been ludicrously over-represented in kills that matter, and rogues are still quite good right now.

My point, is that a world where ret paladins get stacked in available melee slots is a fantasy. It has never happened before and I don't see a reason that would change now.

I do feel the need to post a correction to something I said earlier though. Ret was actually involved in a mythic end boss world first. Mythic Helya.