Chelsea Manning during basic training

[Mihalik]

its classified, its not your place to bring it up, and he should be rotting in a jail for his entire term. Hes there to server, hes government property.

By that logic the government and the military could hide behind a liberal use of the "classified" label to hide any and all breaches of laws, regulations, misconduct, failure etc. It would literally break the proper functioning of the judiciary and the legislature, giving the executive sweeping powers to literally get away with anything.

Manning is a whistleblower. While she mishandled the affair and perhaps her motivations weren't purely ethical, that doesn't in any way take away from the fact, that the revelations caused absolutely no demonstrable loss of life, and revealed severe misconduct on behalf of the government and the military.

[daerellin]

I can keep the gender dysphoria and the leaking of the documents separate. I just choose to identify her the way she chooses to be identified.

Understood. Again, I only call him "he" because I knew him personally as a man. Maybe I'll get over it eventually.

[Zeta333]

By that logic the government and the military could hide behind a liberal use of the "classified" label to hide any and all breaches of laws, regulations, misconduct, failure etc. It would literally break the proper functioning of the judiciary and the legislature, giving the executive sweeping powers to literally get away with anything.

Manning is a whistleblower. While she mishandled the affair and perhaps her motivations weren't purely ethical, that doesn't in any way take away from the fact, that the revelations caused absolutely no demonstrable loss of life, and revealed severe misconduct on behalf of the government and the military.

it doesnt matter if they caused no loss of life, that doesnt change the violations to the USMJ. When your in the military your not a individual, you are government property, you do what they tell you to, when they tell you to how they tell you to. You can be punished for getting a sunburn becuase thats damage to government property. This is life in the military, if youv never been you need to get it through to your head. It doesnt matter whats classified, he was wrong and pretty much a traitor to do what he did.

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I can keep the gender dysphoria and the leaking of the documents separate. I just choose to identify her the way she chooses to be identified.

how about we refer to the person as they were at the time of breaking the law.

[daerellin]

First of all, you need to get off your high horse for a second. At the point where you are willing to follow orders that are immoral, because you fail at maintaining a moral center, you are no longer defending the country or serving others, on the contrary you betray the country and the ideals that the nation is ought to stand for.

You cannot, simply cannot shrug this off and spew some nonsense about "mission first". Not if the mission is in the first place contrary to the laws and principles of the nation and simple morality.

The rest that you are talking about is utterly irrelevant to the case at hand, and if it would be, being exposed to danger even death, does not justify immoral actions. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The rules are most certainly not different! Shit happens doesn't cut it. If it does happen people need to take responsibility and redress the errors, covering it up, doesn't fix the problem, and outright turns a possibly tragic error into a crime.

This is EXACTLY why the military is subject to civilian rule and oversight and not viceversa. When that oversight fails, then core principles of the nation are being betrayed.

In such a situation what Manning has done has returned us to how the status quo is intended to be, civilians and citizens judging the military and the government, as it is ought to be.

It is obvious that you don't see this, and have bought way too into the Kool Aid, and on some level that is understandable, but I still think you lack moral fiber or an understanding of your duties.

I appreciate your stance and the fact that you took the time to articulate it, but I, uh, just don't agree? Honestly I'm not great at debate and we both disagree fundamentally here, so I'll just get back to my whiskey atop my high horse <.<

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That's one hell of a presumptive thing to say to someone. Almost like you just made your mind up about me before you had any facts.

You are right, my apologies. This topic stirs up my emotions a little bit.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

how about we refer to the person as they were at the time of breaking the law.

At the time of the breaking of the law she was already beginning to outwardly identify as a female.

[Zeta333]

At the time of the breaking of the law she was already beginning to outwardly identify as a female.

its a shame the sjw's cant put to the side that he is a she and keep focused on the fact this person leaked classified documents and committed treason. It doesnt matter what effect the information had or what was in it, that is a seperate matter. The first matter is he/she broke the law and violated the UCMJ

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

its a shame the sjw's cant put to the side that he is a she and keep focused on the fact this person leaked classified documents and committed treason. It doesnt matter what effect the information had or what was in it, that is a seperate matter. The first matter is he/she broke the law and violated the UCMJ

As I have already said...I can keep the two things separated.

And be fair...the topic of gender dysphoria has been dragged around by both the left and the right in this thread. You yourself were happy to talk about it just a post ago.

[Zeta333]

As I have already said...I can keep the two things separated.

And be fair...the topic of gender dysphoria has been dragged around by both the left and the right in this thread. You yourself were happy to talk about it just a post ago.

i didnt use it as an excuse or somthing to sensationalize. He was a he when he was being tried. He was a he when he commited treason, who he is no is irrelevant to the matter of the crimes he had commited. he/she should server all 35 years.

[Crissi]

Since this is just turning into a discussion of transgenderism, which isn't allowed, I'm closing this

Closing