Nazis were right wing, not left

[Pannonian]

Edit: Adding a disclaimer is probably a good idea:

This thread was started because i see a new argument occurring in my countries politics as well as all over the world and recently also here on MMOC. This thread is not about saying every right winger/conservative is a Nazi. Far from that. But as i see its used all of the time against socialist ideas i want to point out, that originally the nazi party was considered right wing and was always deeply opposed to socialism. Seeing new right-wing parties rise that have the same strong nationalism as the original nazi party, it seems hillarious to me that these new parties use the socialism in national-socalism to attack socialist parties.

Granted that this doesn't fit the modern perception of right/left, which is problematic in itself (as often pointed out in this thread), but historically speaking them being on right wing is much more true than them being left wing.


After reading this misconception again and again on this forum, i feel the need to set something right. I often read that the Nazis were in reality left-wingers, because they had "socialist" in their name. Now this thought-process isn't entirely new, it has been used for a decade by the alt-right wing in europe (and i really speak about alt-right (not FPÖ, FN, AFD) but propaganda outlets (politically incorrect, unzensuriert) by linking Nazis to the left because of "socialism").

Now thats a nice idea, but it couldn't be any more wrong. Lets start by a definition: National socialism is by definition facist. The whole party was built up under the ideal of Mussolinis Italy as a facist regime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Facism in europe at least at the time of the second world war was always right wing and opposed to democratic/republican ideals (not saying these are left ideals; facists also fought against right wing democrats)

So what about the socialism in National socialism? Populist policies!

Basically the same how a specific american individual won his election recently:

Promising the majority what they want:

Jobs
Social Security
Perspective
Fighting against the "biggest evil" in the world

Not saying trump is a Nazi or Facist (time has to show that), but a populist, who used the same populist ideas which the Nazis used to get to power. Let me get a bit more in detail:

Jobs

Germany/Austria was still struggling from the great depression. The regime basically created new jobs on debt, which would only work out by the spoils of war. Thats bad, but not how most people think about the world. My grandmother was 18 when the Nazis rose to power here in Austria. For her, though being on the other side of the political spectrum, that was great news, because she immediatley got a job after being 3 years unemployed. This worked not only by creating jobs on debt, but also by getting rid of undesireables (gays, sick people, women). "Produce Aryan, Buy Aryan" - seems familiar?

Social Security

Now thats a speciality in germany: Nearly every big socialist improvement was being done by anti-socialist to take the drive from the ever growing support of socialist parties. This has a rather funny tradition in Germany. Pensions and healthcare weren't introduced by socialist parties, but rather by the national and right-wing chancellor of Germany Bismarck to decrease the influence and approval of socialist parties. The Nazis just built up on that, as the socialist parties were on of their last remaining foes (Conservatives helped Hitler grab power - though in their defense they gambled on Hitler being ousted in a short time ... that didn't work out)

Fighting against bad people

Now thats a populist classic:
Catholics/Popists in England have been the source of all evil in England for centuries, and punishing Popist always had a huge support in the population.

Jews have been the source of all evil in Europe. Progroms against jews had a huge support in the population.*
Muslims...


Now all this is not really new, and its the same basic principle used since the old greeks to win democratic elections. My point on this: Populism isn't really left or right, there are examples for both, but just because you take some socialist ideas on board it doesn't make you left or right, its the intention thats important. Facism in Europe has always been on the extreme right side of the political spectrum.

Again, there is also a long list of shame for the left side, but somehow constructing national socialism to be on the left side of the spectrum is just hillarious.


*Funny thing, this was actually invented by the english king Edward "Longshanks" (Braveheart) who was the first who used populism as a policy (He and his wife had a ceremony where the made a procession of the perceived skulls of King Arthur and his Queen to show the people how deeply routed english they were (or at least as english as frenchmen can be). He united the population by fighting against the "english" enemies: scots, french and of course jews (After he had collected horrendous taxes on them they couldn't pay any more, so hey decreed that every jew has to leave england or convert, otherwise the would be executed - which had a staggering support in the population). Needless to say that this backfired later on spectacularly because the rise of national identity in England gave way to the rise of national identity in Scotland and gave the needed impulse to get rid of the "english" (which were of course norman/french nobleman, EXACTLY like their scottish counterparts (William Wallace (Braveheart) as well as Robert the Bruce were originally from norman families who came to the isles together with William the Bastard)

[callipygoustp]

It's good to know I'm not the only person that lets mmo-c construct their reality.
/s

[Mormolyce]

The only people who think otherwise are alt-right shills.

[Pannonian]

The only people who think otherwise are alt-right shills.

That was a the case for a long time, but in recent years i see this misconception getting more and more mainstream

[Puupi]

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

[Orbitus]

That was a the case for a long time, but in recent years i see this misconception getting more and more mainstream

And those people that that think that fascists were anything but right wing are idiots.

- - - Updated - - -

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

Sorry, but you can't make up your own reality by pigeonholing things you don't like into made up definitions.

[alzoron]

So what you're trying to say is that Hitler was Right?

[Machismo]

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

In what country are right wingers capitalists? I'm asking, because I live in America, and our rightwing just elected a president who is most certainly not a capitalist.

When compared to Americans, the Nazis are much closer aligned to the conservatives and rightwing.

[Kalis]

Nazis were right wing, far right.

Even as a right winger I don't have any issue with saying that, there are untold factions within the right, I am not a Nazi and their politics was very different from mine. I care as much about that as people like Osama Bin Laden and Piers Morgan being Arsenal fans, their evil does not reflect on me just because we have something in common.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

OP is mixing Left/Right with Authoritarian/Libertarian.

Nazi were Center Authoritarian, not right nor left. They also weren't fascist. Please go read the definition of fascist.

What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments is a highly disputed subject that has proved complicated and contentious. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets.

A significant number of scholars agree that a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government, although not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. Authoritarianism is thus a defining characteristic, but most scholars will say that more distinguishing traits are needed to make an authoritarian regime fascist.[1]

[Orbitus]

OP is mixing Left/Right with Authoritarian/Libertarian.

Nazi were Center Authoritarian, not right nor left. They also weren't fascist. Please go read the definition of fascist.

He linked the definition of fascism.

From his link:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[3][4]

[Puupi]

Sorry, but you can't make up your own reality by pigeonholing things you don't like into made up definitions.

Exactly. Now go follow that own guideline of yours.

In what country are right wingers capitalists?

In all of Europe, for example.

When compared to Americans, the Nazis are much closer aligned to the conservatives and rightwing.

The issue here is that Americans use the terms left wing and right wing even though their ridiculous biparty political system compromises of two capitalist parties so there even isn't a real left wing or right wing spectrum to be used.

[Hammerfest]

Sorry, but you can't make up your own reality by pigeonholing things you don't like into made up definitions.

I suggest you apply that high-powered perception to yourself. The National Socialist Party (i.e. Nazi Party) was socialist... which firmly ensconces them on the left side of the political spectrum.

[Deleted]

Fascism is a derivation of socialism.
Its a 'third way' - So no, its either left wing, or somewhere in the undefinable centre.

[Orbitus]

Exactly. Now go follow that own guideline of yours.

In all of Europe, for example.

The issue here is that Americans use the terms left wing and right wing even though their ridiculous biparty political system compromises of two capitalist parties so there even isn't a real left wing or right wing spectrum to be used.

I just linked a thing from the fascism wikipedia link that the OP posted but I will hold your hand and draw it out in fucking crayons for you again.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[3][4]

[Machismo]

Exactly. Now go follow that own guideline of yours.

In all of Europe, for example.

The issue here is that Americans use the terms left wing and right wing even though their ridiculous biparty political system compromises of two capitalist parties so there even isn't a real left wing or right wing spectrum to be used.

But they aren't really there, either. Calling for closing borders, enacting tariffs, limiting free trade... those are not capitalistic ideals. In America, neither party is capitalistic, not by a long shot.

[Orbitus]

I suggest you apply that high-powered perception to yourself. The National Socialist Party (i.e. Nazi Party) was socialist... which firmly ensconces them on the left side of the political spectrum.

Except having the word "socialism" in it doesn't make it magically socialism. That is like saying North Korea is a fucking Democratic country because it has Democratic in its fucking name like it does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea Its full name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea. We KNOW that they are a dictatorship.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I just linked a thing from the fascism wikipedia link that the OP posted but I will hold your hand and draw it out in fucking crayons for you again.

The wonderful thing about fascism is that people don't realize the word itself if being constantly challenged.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

I wish I didn't have to hold your hand.

[Orbitus]

Fascism is a derivation of socialism.
Its a 'third way' - So no, its either left wing, or somewhere in the undefinable centre.

But again, it isn't.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[3][4]

[Zecora]

That was a the case for a long time, but in recent years i see this misconception getting more and more mainstream

Yeah, that is unfortunately the way of it, a lie can run around the globe before the truth can get its shoes on. And the right-wingdings do love to pretend that the nazi's were left-wing, because "it's got socialism in its name, hurr durr..."

Well, it's a lie, and anyone with a couple of braincells to rub together should be capable of understanding that. I'm certainly not going to pretend that left-wing people like Stalin didn't do horrible things in the name of socialism and communism, but I refuse to accept historical falsification because some (not all) on the right wing find it uncomfortable and inconvenient to think that right-wingers like Hitler and Mussolini played for "their team".