Nazis were right wing, not left

[Zecora]

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. USSR was the living representation of internationalism.

Yeah, but you can't let facts get in the way of a good lie, now can you? Besides, reality has a "liberal bias" anyhow...

[Slybak]

Fascism is about expanding government power and control of services ("the trains on time!") for the primary purpose of improving efficiency of operations, which is a strictly socialist (and thus, left-wing) principle, and actually takes this a step further by including non-service business where applicable (Volkswagen, to give an example), but not to a totalitarian degree, as in communism.

Ideologies are goal-oriented, not means-oriented. Fascists don't nationalize industries to nationalize industries; they do so because it is a means of returning industrial power into the hands of those it deems nationally pure. Nazis, for instance, were fine with private ownership over the means of production so long as the private owner supported, at least overtly, Nazi race science and Aryan supremacy.

The TARP program established to bail out US banks and automakers, for example, was fascist in nature.

This is nonsense. Further, it contradicts your above assertion that the central tenet of fascism is the expropriation of private assets for public use, as the TARP program and the auto industry bailouts were conducted with the express goal of preserving the existence of privately-owned commercial enterprises.

Fascism is, further, about taking control of the education system and turning it into an arm of the ruling party. Again, focus on state-sponsored curriculum control is a left-wing policy.

Are Texas Republicans left-wing fascists?

Racially and ethnically motivated action in the name of supposed national interests is not the sole purview of the right wing, and uh... characterizing the hypothetical "Zionist oligarchy of Jewish bankers Illuminati" boogeyman espoused by certain fascist countries as a left-wing organization is quite humorous.

If that national interest is hierarchical in its goals then, yes, it is decisively right-wing in its ideological motivations. The left cares about abolishing hierarchy. The right cares about defending and asserting hierarchy as a response to radicalism. Everything else is contextual.

[Slybak]

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. USSR was the living representation of internationalism.

Trotskyism was and is internationalist. Stalinism was and is assuredly not.

[sethman75]

Ok so the bullshit started in the first couple of lines OP.

Nazis were the antithesis of conservatives. For starters conservatives are mostly Judeo/Christian based, nazis were pagans and athiests.

Which seems to be the vast majority of the liberal left as well. So a base fact of your bullshit statement is incorrect. Learn to read

[Zolaris192]

I mean, at least try to pretend this argument isn't dishonest as fuck and edit out "on the one hand" if you're going to quote only one side of it.




State run education started in Germany when it was still Kingdom of Prussia, an absolutist monarchy. The apotheosis of left wing /s Confiscation of guns? Part of Australian gun control reform. Instigated by right wing government. The last two can be observed on literally all spots of the spectrum.

that's because at the top, both sides work together to control you and turn us into a population of sheep to be profited from by banks/multinational corporations

that's why both prominent political parties, the media, the celebrities, and the brainwashing centers known as universities, all rallied to try and stop trump

[Devonitar]

Ok so the bullshit started in the first couple of lines OP.

Nazis were the antithesis of conservatives. For starters conservatives are mostly Judeo/Christian based, nazis were pagans and athiests.

Which seems to be the vast majority of the liberal left as well. So a base fact of your bullshit statement is incorrect. Learn to read

So, all governments in non-christian, muslim or judaism countries are by definition left?

[Deleted]

Trotskyism was and is internationalist. Stalinism was and is assuredly not.

Yet, the one that I quoted wrote "USSR", not Stalinism.

[Deleted]

nazis were pagans and athiests.

Only the loony fringe. The large majority of the Nazi party members were Christians and actually created a German Evangelical Church.

[Coffeh]

No they're not. Big government controlling everything is Left, not Right.

People try to come up with these massive explanations detailing the differences between Fascism, Communism, Social. All trying to sound like they're smart. They're not. It's real simple. The definition that matters is the one in my second sentence.

[Endus]

Haven't read the whole thread, but you just need to listen to Hitler's own words in describing his own system;

"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"

"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.


"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic."

https://www.theguardian.com/theguard...eatinterviews1

His "socialism" was nationalist capitalism/corporatism, and was directly opposed to actual socialist thinking, to the extent of claiming that all socialist schools weren't "real socialism". Claiming that Hitler was akin to Marx is that even Hitler would have found ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

No they're not. Big government controlling everything is Left, not Right.

Authoritarianism leans neither left nor right. Claiming otherwise is propaganda, and nothing more. It's a completely separate political axis.

[Phookah]

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

The fact that you think your preferred mode of economy is what dictates your political affiliation means you need to go back to school.

[Nihilanth]

Lets see:

A centralized economy and a single party system.

Sounds pretty lefty to me.

[Huulo]

Fascism is a derivation of socialism.
Its a 'third way' - So no, its either left wing, or somewhere in the undefinable centre.

No, fascism is authoritarian, militaristic government. In theory, populism is the opposite of fascism, because populism puts the desires of the people over authority. In a fascist state of mind, the most moral act is to obey authority. In a populist state of mind, the most moral act is to serve the will of the people. In practice, however, rampant populism has at times allowed fascist rulers to seize power.

Socialism is a government that uses tax revenue to provide social services to its citizens, effectively redistributing wealth (nearly all governments do this, but some do it more than others). In theory, you could have fascism and socialism at the same time, but they aren't related.

BTW, simply putting the word "socialism" in your name doesn't make you any more socialist, in the way that North Korea isn't a people's republic.

[Slybak]

Yet, the one that I quoted wrote "USSR", not Stalinism.

The ruling ideology of the USSR for most of its history, including its most overtly nationalist, was Stalinism. That fact that Trotsky himself opposed "Socialism in One Country" is the primary reason Stalin had him killed and purged his followers from the CPSU.

[Deleted]

The ruling ideology of the USSR for most of its history, including its most overtly nationalist, was Stalinism. That fact that Trotsky himself opposed "Socialism in One Country" is the primary reason Stalin had him killed and purged his followers from the CPSU.

Not after Stalin's death, with the Destalinizatsiya and Khrushchev Thaw.

[Slybak]

Not after Stalin's death, with the Destalinizatsiya and Khrushchev Thaw.

I'm generally of the school of thought that Kruschev's ouster in 1964 and the imposition of the Brezhnev Doctrine amounted to a quasi-restoration of Stalinism at least in practice, only to be undone again by glasnost, though I acknowledge that this is a contested idea.

[Rootkitt]

Except having the word "socialism" in it doesn't make it magically socialism. That is like saying North Korea is a fucking Democratic country because it has Democratic in its fucking name like it does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea Its full name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea. We KNOW that they are a dictatorship.

Just curious, do you approach all your debates with such an aggressive attitude? You know people are a lot more inclined to listen to you if you just toned yourself down a notch or two and used logic instead of berating with insults and hostility.

[Mister Cheese]

And? I'm gonna keep calling everyone on this site a Marxist. Not much better. Nazis were socialists by the way.

[For_The_Horde]

By all rational measure, the Nazis and Hitler were extremely right-wing and authoritarian. Historians have made this assessment because;

A). They were violently hostile to all center-left and far-left political parties for their entire existence as a party post Hitler. (sounds familiar)
B). They were violently nationalist, and anti-internationalist compared to the internationalism of the contemporary left. (too familiar)
C) They formed alliances with other far right governments. (I swear I’ve seen this recently)
D). They formed coalitions with the traditional right in electoral politics, aka the coalition government that made Hitler Chancellor. (it’s on the tip of my tongue)
E) They opposed class struggle, a central tenet of Marxists. (but conservatives tell me Nazism and Communism are the same thing, odd)

Basically, they were right wing because they defined themselves in opposition to the left.

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

Which is an inaccurate. Otto Strasser, the leader of the 'socialist' or 'left-wing Nazis', had been expelled from the party in July 1930 and his brother, Gregor Strasser, left it in late 1932. In both cases clashes with Hitler were to blame. So while Gregor was killed in the Night of the Long Knives, and Otto escaped into exile, both of them had been effectively purged prior to this.

Similarly, the list of victims in 1934 went far beyond 'left-wing' members of the party. Most of the violence fell on Ernst Röhm's SA, the downfall of which being largely a product of the potential threat it posed to Hitler. A number of conservative politicians were also killed. I think it's therefore more apt to look at the Night of the Long Knives as a 'clearing out' of all opposing poles of political opposition, and purge of fellow conservatives that were deemed too soft or unreliable (not loyal enough).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

promoted state run education, confiscation of guns, sorting people based on religion or skin color, and attacking people that disagree with their worldview

all leftist practices

the nazis were leftist

It’s funny because those are all conservative practices, even all the talk about confiscation of guns, they’re really the only ones suggesting it as possible. Remind me how many guns did Obama take again? And tell me, which party promotes an open educational curriculum, which party stands for equality among people of different religion or skin color or gender, which party has been lashing out with violence and hate speech at anyone who disagrees with them (and which party thinks grabbing women by the pussy is sexual assault). If you honestly believe the conservative party is the party of openness and inclusion, then you're living in your own made up reality, and you have my pity.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Mayhem is an alt-right shill? Damn, I learn amazing things about other posters from you and Batman.




And yet the concept of welfare originates from Christian democrats and the first European country to introduce it in its modern incarnation was German Empire under Bismarck. Staples of left wing right there.




How about you don't use Wikipedia selectively? The page on Nazism says it's considered far-right movement by most scholars. Also, Nazism originates from fascism and uses it as a basis. It didn't even change all that much in terms on non-ideological aspects.




Just because Nazis thought themselves to be something outside of the spectrum doesn't make it the truth. Do third way Democrats escape the spectrum as well?




How is properly calling things or correcting people who are wrong (some deliberately, apparently) sad? And what about people like Kalis who are right wing and are able to admit it's his side that Nazis were on?

Because the sources from wikipedia are almost 20 years old, back when the political spectrum was still widely thought as a single line: Left ------------------ Right

That made their protectionist and totalitarianism values stand out. Yet as we've expanded the way we analyze political spectrums, it became increasingly clear that beside their strong protectionist values, Nazis were actually pretty damn close to the "center-right". They also had several projects that were strongly on the left, but they were overshadowed by their absolutely disgusting elimination of anything they did not consider worthy. (And at the very end, the elimination of their left-wing allies within the party)

So yeah, Nazism had a completely hermetically closed autoritarian rule, a living hell. But it wasn't far right. It was Center-Right.