I really tried Survival!!!

[Improtaight]

Survival, for me, has been MUCH better ever since I removed Flanking Strikes from my bars. I do slightly more damage then before, the rotation is more fluid, ect, ect.

It would be nice if they extended the mongoose window by maybe 3 more seconds - You want to try to get 6 mongoose bites into that 12 second window, so you both need enough mastery to get it done (~15% mastery does the trick there, 20% ensures that you can have 1-2 extra 6 stack mongoose bites), and when you count the channel, well, you don't have any room for the rest of the rotation at all. I honestly don't get why they just gave hunters Energy, and then gave us a 1.5 GCD to go with it.

that's interesting, you removed flanking strike? i usually use it at mongoose bite when its stack 1, so i wont waste the flanking cd, it hits very hard sometimes when it crits.
i'm going to give it a shot, so i guess u use raptor as a filler with way of the mok?

[GT4]

that's interesting, you removed flanking strike? i usually use it at mongoose bite when its stack 1, so i wont waste the flanking cd, it hits very hard sometimes when it crits.
i'm going to give it a shot, so i guess u use raptor as a filler with way of the mok?

That's a really dumb idea. If you look at the few high DPS SV logs, flanking strike typically contributes 10-15% of total damage while having three times the average damage of raptor strike.

That's basically like removing cobra shot for BM just because you're too bad to keep KC on cooldown because you dump too much with cobra shot.

[Deleted]

I think he forgets that Flanking Strike makes also the pet strikes at the same time...

[Adramalech]

And has increased chance to grant Mongoose Bite charges.

[Deleted]

that's interesting, you removed flanking strike? i usually use it at mongoose bite when its stack 1, so i wont waste the flanking cd, it hits very hard sometimes when it crits.
i'm going to give it a shot, so i guess u use raptor as a filler with way of the mok?

Try using Spitting Cobra for single target. I've tried it out and simmed it too, and it outperforms Expert Trapper since the Caltrops nerf. With Spitting Cobra though, you get increased focus regen, so you can keep spamming Flanking Strike while being able to refresh lacerate and Mok'nathal too. Also, on a fight like Krosus it does around 6% of my damage, which is close to Serpent Sting so it's not that bad.

[Raugnaut]

I think he forgets that Flanking Strike makes also the pet strikes at the same time...

In terms of raw DPE, Flanking Strike is only 2% more efficient then Raptor Strike, for me. Should I get another relic buffing Raptor Strike, then Raptor Strike takes over in raw DPE value. Then you have to consider Mok'Nathol's, the fact that using Flanking Strike on CD almost requires you to remove every single other energy-consuming ability from your rotation due to its close-to-10 energy-per-second consumption... Yea. Flanking Strike on CD prevents me from keeping 100% uptime on Lacerate, keeping 100% uptime on Mok'Nathols, ect. Whats more, since every pet attack has a chance to trigger mongoose bite, I find myself easily being able to have 6 stack Talonstrikes on CD, with 1-2 extra bites squeezed in there.

Flanking Strikes crushes the smoothness of the rotation, period.

[Orangetai420]

[*] Explosive trap and caltraps are both click and position, i just hate that, dont know if you'll agree

/cast [@cursor] Explosive Trap
/cast [@cursor] Caltrops

I'm assuming you use keybinds.

[Deleted]

In terms of raw DPE, Flanking Strike is only 2% more efficient then Raptor Strike, for me. Should I get another relic buffing Raptor Strike, then Raptor Strike takes over in raw DPE value. Then you have to consider Mok'Nathol's, the fact that using Flanking Strike on CD almost requires you to remove every single other energy-consuming ability from your rotation due to its close-to-10 energy-per-second consumption... Yea. Flanking Strike on CD prevents me from keeping 100% uptime on Lacerate, keeping 100% uptime on Mok'Nathols, ect. Whats more, since every pet attack has a chance to trigger mongoose bite, I find myself easily being able to have 6 stack Talonstrikes on CD, with 1-2 extra bites squeezed in there.

Flanking Strikes crushes the smoothness of the rotation, period.

Look at my previous post above, all I can recommend is Spitting Cobra, really. It made the rotation so much better. WotM gives you an uncomfortable rotation, so that extra focus regen really helps you loosen up a bit.

[Myzou]

A lot of SV hunters take Flanking Strike off of their bars. (If they spec into Way of the Mok'nathal, if they spec into Animal Instincts or Throwing Axes, then you would remove Raptor Strike from your bars)

However, come 7.2, we -have- to use Flanking Strike on CD due to the new artifact trait, so I imagine WotM will stop being used.

[Deleted]

I agree that If i spec in Axes, I don't have the time to use Raptor Strike but on the contrary, I do have the time to FS a bit when I spec into WotM.

Fact is I have 2p, and it seems it looms toward an AI build. Does anyone confirm?

[Deleted]

I must admit, I thought the 2p bonus was so weak it wouldn't change anything for us. I haven't done any of the maths on that, it's just a gut feeling.

[Deleted]

On Discord, they agrees that it's worth switching to AI only with the 4p. I discovered also that they recommend Spitting Cobra for Etraeus or Krosus. I've tested it and it is indeed quite satisfactory.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I love the idea of being a melee hunter with a glaive, especially on my troll. Makes me feel like Vol'jin Jr.

Some of the abilities have never made sense to me. Explain how we impale someone with our harpoon, pull ourselves to them instantly (super bungee cord?), but don't do any damage to them in the process? And how about all those explosives we use in melee? Are we suicide bombers?

Yeah, yeah, it's a fantasy game and doesn't have to make sense. But some spell ideas seem sillier than others.

[Gurg]

In terms of raw DPE, Flanking Strike is only 2% more efficient then Raptor Strike, for me. Should I get another relic buffing Raptor Strike, then Raptor Strike takes over in raw DPE value. Then you have to consider Mok'Nathol's, the fact that using Flanking Strike on CD almost requires you to remove every single other energy-consuming ability from your rotation due to its close-to-10 energy-per-second consumption... Yea. Flanking Strike on CD prevents me from keeping 100% uptime on Lacerate, keeping 100% uptime on Mok'Nathols, ect. Whats more, since every pet attack has a chance to trigger mongoose bite, I find myself easily being able to have 6 stack Talonstrikes on CD, with 1-2 extra bites squeezed in there.

Flanking Strikes crushes the smoothness of the rotation, period.

Funny, you actually removed one of the hardest hitting spells (THE hardest hitting spell before MB under MF stacks) which also causes your pet to attack, take aggro from you and has double chance to proc mastery?

Im sitting at + 36% crit and +22% Haste with +4% mastery and 3x relics in "Fluffy, Go" (+5% pet haste).
I actually have quite opposite results, if i switch to Raptor Strike it makes rotation too much spammy and i have far too less MS procs, thus lower MF stacked windows. Overall rotation with RS feels a bit like Enhances shammy, but its far too big of a DPS loss to play it that way (atleast for me).
I removed RS from my bards, speced into Animal Instincts, and even now i sometimes have issue in dumping all MB procs.

Also.. are you sure that youre gearing in the right way? It feels like you invested far too much time into gearing it, but.. t19 2p bonus gives you 3 times the chance that Flanking Strike will proc MB.. so, by the looks of it, youll completely ignore 2p bonus which is large DPS boost on its own.

Fact is I have 2p, and it seems it looms toward an AI build. Does anyone confirm?

Somewhat confirming this.. I was Beta testing Nighthold with 4t19 and legend wrists, AI build pulled ahead for me for around ~15-23k over Axes/WotMN build. And that was before it was 2p buffed by 50% (used to have two times the normal chance, now has three times the normal chance). But, as i said, Im sitting @ 6x "Fluffy, Go" which can probably be, combined with the set and AI, increased generator of MB.
Im also eager to see how will end build end up with, but again, its just sims who are simming 100% uptime on boss without the need to move. AI + FS simply feels like logical QoL choice over WotMN and RS spam to keep uptime on the buff.

Also, do note that AI has great synergy not only with Convergence of Fate, but also with MB too. End result was that i ended up sometimes even ignoring FS on CD just to dump my MB stacks. i would say that 6xMF window was quite frequent, giving us +20% damage buff where i could squeeze in extra powerful FS and one or two MBs. Hardest thing was actually to synch AotE and FotE lineup because with my build i frequently ended up with AotE actually coming off the CD around 10-15sec earlier than FotE, sometimes even a bit earlier, depends on Ai procs.

[Raugnaut]

Funny, you actually removed one of the hardest hitting spells (THE hardest hitting spell before MB under MF stacks) which also causes your pet to attack, take aggro from you and has double chance to proc mastery?

Im sitting at + 36% crit and +22% Haste with +4% mastery and 3x relics in "Fluffy, Go" (+5% pet haste).
I actually have quite opposite results, if i switch to Raptor Strike it makes rotation too much spammy and i have far too less MS procs, thus lower MF stacked windows. Overall rotation with RS feels a bit like Enhances shammy, but its far too big of a DPS loss to play it that way (atleast for me).
I removed RS from my bards, speced into Animal Instincts, and even now i sometimes have issue in dumping all MB procs.

Also.. are you sure that youre gearing in the right way? It feels like you invested far too much time into gearing it, but.. t19 2p bonus gives you 3 times the chance that Flanking Strike will proc MB.. so, by the looks of it, youll completely ignore 2p bonus which is large DPS boost on its own.



Somewhat confirming this.. I was Beta testing Nighthold with 4t19 and legend wrists, AI build pulled ahead for me for around ~15-23k over Axes/WotMN build. And that was before it was 2p buffed by 50% (used to have two times the normal chance, now has three times the normal chance). But, as i said, Im sitting @ 6x "Fluffy, Go" which can probably be, combined with the set and AI, increased generator of MB.
Im also eager to see how will end build end up with, but again, its just sims who are simming 100% uptime on boss without the need to move. AI + FS simply feels like logical QoL choice over WotMN and RS spam to keep uptime on the buff.

Also, do note that AI has great synergy not only with Convergence of Fate, but also with MB too. End result was that i ended up sometimes even ignoring FS on CD just to dump my MB stacks. i would say that 6xMF window was quite frequent, giving us +20% damage buff where i could squeeze in extra powerful FS and one or two MBs. Hardest thing was actually to synch AotE and FotE lineup because with my build i frequently ended up with AotE actually coming off the CD around 10-15sec earlier than FotE, sometimes even a bit earlier, depends on Ai procs.

I do not yet have 2 piece, and have significantly more mastery then you do. Less Crit/Haste of course. And yea, sure, Flanking Strike might be the highest DPGCD, but again - For me, it was only 2% more DPE efficient then Raptor Strike - I was able to get raptor strike relics, and now Raptor Strike is more DPE efficient then Flanking Strike. Whats more, using Flanking Strike on CD requires 9 energy per second - And increases at the same rate you gain haste, effectively only ever leaving me with 1 energy regen, which can't be used to keep Lacerate up, or use anything else (Cobra helps, but its a design fail on behalf of blizz if you 100% require a talent to actually use your rotation).

Dropping Flanking Strikes makes the rotation far, far more smooth for me.

[Draugnakh]

That's the way the spec should be played. Switch build, skill and first secondary stat as you find new loot/relics/set pieces. I have to much haste now, come back to crit/vers.

I don't know what should be the best build/skill rotation for a BiS SV (probably around FS yeah, not for me now) but I'm sure that my character changes each week as I earn new stuff. Last upgrade... Draught of Souls... (not really good with haste if I'm right...)

Playing SV = simc for every loot...

[Deleted]

I do not yet have 2 piece, and have significantly more mastery then you do. Less Crit/Haste of course. And yea, sure, Flanking Strike might be the highest DPGCD, but again - For me, it was only 2% more DPE efficient then Raptor Strike - I was able to get raptor strike relics, and now Raptor Strike is more DPE efficient then Flanking Strike. Whats more, using Flanking Strike on CD requires 9 energy per second - And increases at the same rate you gain haste, effectively only ever leaving me with 1 energy regen, which can't be used to keep Lacerate up, or use anything else (Cobra helps, but its a design fail on behalf of blizz if you 100% require a talent to actually use your rotation).

Dropping Flanking Strikes makes the rotation far, far more smooth for me.

That should only be the case if you play with way of the mok'nathal of course. So I wouldn't really call it blizzard's fault, since you actually chose to play the hard way.
Once again, I play with Spitting Cobra on single target, and using FS never caused me a problem, of course I cast it a lot less than an AI build, and slightly less than a Throwing Axe build,but it still does like twice the damage of raptor strike during a ST fight.

Back in 7.1 when I played with throwing axes, I could cast FS on cd. Even if RS is a bit more efficient in raw DPE because of your relics, you cannot count with the possible MB procs. Also FS's pet hit crits hard and frequently because of the trait.

All I can recommend is getting some more haste, it really is the thing for SV.

[Deleted]

In terms of raw DPE, Flanking Strike is only 2% more efficient then Raptor Strike, for me. Should I get another relic buffing Raptor Strike, then Raptor Strike takes over in raw DPE value. Then you have to consider Mok'Nathol's, the fact that using Flanking Strike on CD almost requires you to remove every single other energy-consuming ability from your rotation due to its close-to-10 energy-per-second consumption... Yea. Flanking Strike on CD prevents me from keeping 100% uptime on Lacerate, keeping 100% uptime on Mok'Nathols, ect. Whats more, since every pet attack has a chance to trigger mongoose bite, I find myself easily being able to have 6 stack Talonstrikes on CD, with 1-2 extra bites squeezed in there.

Flanking Strikes crushes the smoothness of the rotation, period.

2% ? Flanking strike deals 2 times the dmg that Raptor strike does and with the next restart it deals about 3% more dmg with the 10% buff to pet dmg its not worth not to use it, also since mok has now 10sec duration u can easely weave Flanking Strikes in and to keep lacrate and Mok up.

[Eapoe]

As it is on paper and most of what I've been hearing (subject to change and possible bad info), prior to having 4p and/or 7.2, you go with WotMN build, after you get 4p you go into FS build.
With my current gear (progression raider early in xpac and casual now) I have a high mastery/haste build and trying to find more haste/crit gear, I am only really using FS as either a focus spender when I have nothing else to do or during a MB spam cycle.
Keep in mind, after 4p, FS takes higher priority and RS will only be used when everything is on CD or to refresh SS if you have that talent. Either way, having them both on your bars is still good to do as there are times when one can be used as filler (as rare as it is).
Again, this is just from infor I have seen or heard and what it looks like on paper for things like 7.2 and 4p.

[Raugnaut]

2% ? Flanking strike deals 2 times the dmg that Raptor strike does and with the next restart it deals about 3% more dmg with the 10% buff to pet dmg its not worth not to use it, also since mok has now 10sec duration u can easely weave Flanking Strikes in and to keep lacrate and Mok up.

DPE - Damage per Energy (Because lets face it, Focus is just orange colored energy now). When you have a resource, not time, based rotation, its not the DPET(Damage per Effort time), but the DPE (Damage per Energy, or Rage, whathaveyou) that matters. Raptor Strike and Flanking Strike are very close to each other without modifiers - With WotM, RS goes above FS for purposes of keeping up the buff. Lacerate is quite above Flanking Strike. Thus, FS is badly designed imo.