NH feels like BT in terms of instance design.

[tapz]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

??? I got 10/10 N done in pugs in the first two days and then 5/10 H since then... Also in pugs. This man has to be trolling.

[Raelbo]

But blizzard has trapped themselves in terms of difficulty balancing it seems. Because of paragon traits and legendaries the difference in powerlvl between top and mediocre guilds is huge.

I disagree. The primary difference between top and mediocre guilds is player ability - which is largely a function of time spent in working at getting better. This game has a massive spectrum of players operating at different levels of skill and experience, ranging from people who have never raided at all to people who have been working hard at it for more than 10 years.

Blizzard haven't "trapped themselves" in terms of difficulty balancing. It is simply their reality that they have to provide a game to cater for a broad spectrum of player skills. They have avoided becoming "trapped" by offering multiple difficulty levels

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Lfr is Tourist mode,
Normal is for bad guilds or decent pugs,
Heroic is for Decent-semi-good guilds and very good pugs
Mythic first few bosses for semi-good, rest (aside from last) good guilds, last boss very good guilds.

I agree with this assessment except I think "bad" is a poor choice of adjective for weaker guilds. Calling them "bad" just makes it sound like they are useless and should quit the game whereas I prefer to believe that there are a number of reasons why some players, and guilds, are not as good at the game as others, not all of which deserve contempt.

[caervek]

It feels like sunwell in a different colour ^^

[Battlebeard]

??? I got 10/10 N done in pugs in the first two days and then 5/10 H since then... Also in pugs. This man has to be trolling.

No, I am not.

And I don't believe I'm the most unlucky person out there to find groups, but rather you were lucky. Or you went with a 895++ group which made it easier.

But with 880 groups, the raid is insanely hard.

[Emerald Archer]

No, I am not.

And I don't believe I'm the most unlucky person out there to find groups, but rather you were lucky. Or you went with a 895++ group which made it easier.

But with 880 groups, the raid is insanely hard.

No it's not, you just had a shit group. Your 1 scenario does not outweigh the majorities ease of it.

[Deleted]

No, I am not.

And I don't believe I'm the most unlucky person out there to find groups, but rather you were lucky. Or you went with a 895++ group which made it easier.

But with 880 groups, the raid is insanely hard.

We went with third alts 868 raid iLVL 25-30 traits on most people, and did 9/10 with total of 8 wipes. People wiping with 880 must have 0 clue on their class and consistently fail raid mechanics.
You or your groups being exceptionally bad doesn't make the raid overtuned.

[Battlebeard]

No it's not, you just had a shit group. Your 1 scenario does not outweigh the majorities ease of it.

I though so too, but this has happened in 20 groups. And ALL the time. I have 100% fails in there after the first 4 bosses. No group seem to be able to kill them.

Almost all of them have been 20 man groups, 2/4/14, a pretty standard setup. The last group went Krosus and we wiped 7 times before we disbanded. 7 might not sound much but it is for a Normal mode raid in a pug. Four healers with 880ilvl, who had curve for EN and one even had cutting edge for ToV (he was on alt), still there was no chance they could outheal his attacks and aoe smashes or w/e the ability was called. Not way, not even close. Every DPS was above 400k but there was no way we kill any of the bosses before we die ourselves. The bosses have an insane amount of HP, 1500million, just HOW are we suppose to do that with such gear.

NH might be tuned decent for guilds, but it's a living hell for pugs.

I calculated a little bit. On avarage, every fight lasted 3 minutes before we all died from general damage, either from dead tanks and aggro or oom healers or simply too much damage (not just Krosus, all of them). That means this:

1500000000 HP divided by 14 DPS (not counting tanks etc atm) is about 107million damage needed per DPS.
107 million damage divided by 3min, aka 180 seconds is 595 000.

To kill any normal boss, EVERY DPS must have 595 000 DPS in NORMAL MODE to have a chance. Sure, tanks do some damage too, even if tanks match DPSs damage, it's minimum 520 000 DPS.

This is still insane for a Normal mode fight. And this is if you DPS ALL the time, aka constantly for 180 seconds, and you don't.

[Deleted]

I though so too, but this has happened in 20 groups. And ALL the time. I have 100% fails in there after the first 4 bosses. No group seem to be able to kill them.

Almost all of them have been 20 man groups, 2/4/14, a pretty standard setup. The last group went Krosus and we wiped 7 times before we disbanded. 7 might not sound much but it is for a Normal mode raid in a pug. Four healers with 880ilvl, who had curve for EN and one even had cutting edge for ToV (he was on alt), still there was no chance they could outheal his attacks and aoe smashes or w/e the ability was called. Not way, not even close. Every DPS was above 400k but there was no way we kill any of the bosses before we die ourselves. The bosses have an insane amount of HP, 1500million, just HOW are we suppose to do that with such gear.

NH might be tuned decent for guilds, but it's a living hell for pugs.

Just wait a week or 2 and it will be super ez. Many people wil have tier set but more importantly everyone will now the tacts.
But I still recommend not waiting to long because pugs are going to ask for AotC in a couple weeks.

[Battlebeard]

Just wait a week or 2 and it will be super ez. Many people wil have tier set but more importantly everyone will now the tacts.
But I still recommend not waiting to long because pugs are going to ask for AotC in a couple weeks.

This is why I even care in the first place. I am not in a hurry to clear it, but without AotC, you are screwed, that's WoW since a long time. I might have a chance, just maybe, if I have at least a normal clear early. But if I have no curve and no early, meaning 1st tops 2nd week clear of normal, I am fucked until the next raid tier.

I don't want to buy boost for curve either, as a good ex-top 100 guild in world raider, who is forced to go casual, it's embarassing to have to buy stuff so I refuse.

[Shalanoree]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

Sorry, but it just sounds like your group is just rolling their faces on the keyboard expecting the boss to just drop dead and throw some loot on you...
Some fights are considerably challenging on heroic (if you're not overgeared), but normal is DEFINITELY not hard (only Tichondrius has a bit of a tight enrage timer for normal).

My guild went into heroic Skorpyron with an average of 876ilvl and steamrolled through it. We were worried when we first got 2 players accidentally knocked back, but when we saw that the adds did like 0 damage, we basically ignored the shockwave mechanic for the rest of the fight. We simply cleaved all the adds down, having like 3-4 red scorpions in the mix, and it didn't even scratch the tank. No healing cooldowns required or anything. Heroic Chronomatic Anomaly was basically the same. We accidentally pulled normal Spellblade Aluriel while killing the first pack of adds, and we killed her on our first try, while clearing the rest of the room along the way. I don't see how a 880 group could've had trouble with those bosses on normal difficulty.

[Nikkaszal]

I though so too, but this has happened in 20 groups. And ALL the time. I have 100% fails in there after the first 4 bosses. No group seem to be able to kill them.

Almost all of them have been 20 man groups, 2/4/14, a pretty standard setup. The last group went Krosus and we wiped 7 times before we disbanded. 7 might not sound much but it is for a Normal mode raid in a pug. Four healers with 880ilvl, who had curve for EN and one even had cutting edge for ToV (he was on alt), still there was no chance they could outheal his attacks and aoe smashes or w/e the ability was called. Not way, not even close. Every DPS was above 400k but there was no way we kill any of the bosses before we die ourselves. The bosses have an insane amount of HP, 1500million, just HOW are we suppose to do that with such gear.

NH might be tuned decent for guilds, but it's a living hell for pugs.

I calculated a little bit. On avarage, every fight lasted 3 minutes before we all died from general damage, either from dead tanks and aggro or oom healers or simply too much damage (not just Krosus, all of them). That means this:

1500000000 HP divided by 14 DPS (not counting tanks etc atm) is about 107million damage needed per DPS.
107 million damage divided by 3min, aka 180 seconds is 595 000.

To kill any normal boss, EVERY DPS must have 595 000 DPS in NORMAL MODE to have a chance. Sure, tanks do some damage too, even if tanks match DPSs damage, it's minimum 520 000 DPS.

This is still insane for a Normal mode fight. And this is if you DPS ALL the time, aka constantly for 180 seconds, and you don't.

... Krosus is literally free loot. You try and join PuGs, you find them stuck at Aluriel if they're really bad or Tich/Bot/Augur if they're just not up to snuff. Basically every group is killing Krosus on normal, he's the easiest boss in the zone by far.

Not a single one of the encounters is overtuned on Normal. PuGs, in general, just lack the ability to do mechanics right, which leads to failure. I joined up with a random guild last night who were working on Botanist, and stuck with them until we killed Gul'dan. Their gear wasn't amazing, and most people were doing less than 500k. Some even between 3-400. Still the bosses went down because they stuck at it and got the mechanics right

So no, it's not overtuned, it is literally because the groups you are joining can't co-ordinate. Hell, people say that Elisande destroys PuGs - thats because they can't get past Phase 1. A tiny bit of co-ordination is needed to finish that phase and BAM she basically hangs up her boots for the rest of the fight. Gul'dan looks like a shit-show until you realise that on Normal, the gear requirements are only average, and it's an execution fight rather than a DPS race

[Battlebeard]

Sorry, but it just sounds like your group is just rolling their faces on the keyboard expecting the boss to just drop dead and throw some loot on you...
Some fights are considerably challenging on heroic (if you're not overgeared), but normal is DEFINITELY not hard (only Tichondrius has a bit of a tight enrage timer for normal).

My guild went into heroic Skorpyron with an average of 876ilvl and steamrolled through it. We were worried when we first got 2 players accidentally knocked back, but when we saw that the adds did like 0 damage, we basically ignored the shockwave mechanic for the rest of the fight. We simply cleaved all the adds down, having like 3-4 red scorpions in the mix, and it didn't even scratch the tank. No healing cooldowns required or anything. Heroic Chronomatic Anomaly was basically the same. We accidentally pulled normal Spellblade Aluriel while killing the first pack of adds, and we killed her on our first try, while clearing the rest of the room along the way. I don't see how a 880 group could've had trouble with those bosses on normal difficulty.

Hehe, me neither, this is getting kinda funny. Either I'm the most unlucky player of 7.1.5 or there is something wrong with the raid.

These thread suggest I'm unlucky with groups.

But it's been SO MANY groups, can you even be this unlucky?

[Emerald Archer]

Hehe, me neither, this is getting kinda funny. Either I'm the most unlucky player of 7.1.5 or there is something wrong with the raid.

These thread suggest I'm unlucky with groups.

But it's been SO MANY groups, can you even be this unlucky?

Yes.

The fights are easy, the alt run of it that I did had 350-450k ST dps and we killed every boss.

[fangless]

It feels more like Sunwell than BT.

Honestly, I don't think Blizzard will ever top BT in terms of rich lore and the architecture :P

[Deleted]

I though so too, but this has happened in 20 groups. And ALL the time. I have 100% fails in there after the first 4 bosses. No group seem to be able to kill them.

Almost all of them have been 20 man groups, 2/4/14, a pretty standard setup. The last group went Krosus and we wiped 7 times before we disbanded. 7 might not sound much but it is for a Normal mode raid in a pug. Four healers with 880ilvl, who had curve for EN and one even had cutting edge for ToV (he was on alt), still there was no chance they could outheal his attacks and aoe smashes or w/e the ability was called. Not way, not even close. Every DPS was above 400k but there was no way we kill any of the bosses before we die ourselves. The bosses have an insane amount of HP, 1500million, just HOW are we suppose to do that with such gear.

NH might be tuned decent for guilds, but it's a living hell for pugs.

I calculated a little bit. On avarage, every fight lasted 3 minutes before we all died from general damage, either from dead tanks and aggro or oom healers or simply too much damage (not just Krosus, all of them). That means this:

1500000000 HP divided by 14 DPS (not counting tanks etc atm) is about 107million damage needed per DPS.
107 million damage divided by 3min, aka 180 seconds is 595 000.

To kill any normal boss, EVERY DPS must have 595 000 DPS in NORMAL MODE to have a chance. Sure, tanks do some damage too, even if tanks match DPSs damage, it's minimum 520 000 DPS.

This is still insane for a Normal mode fight. And this is if you DPS ALL the time, aka constantly for 180 seconds, and you don't.

What the... you fight 3 mins and say that raid need insane damage ??? Most of the fights have around 6 mins time before soft enrage hit and start killing ppl
Personaly raid feels like BT dificilty on normal not that hard but not that easy 880sh avg group still need to deal almost perfect with mechanics who are not that hard only difference is that some rooms man and that trash who love to fear you towards Tichndrius

[Chaelexi]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it. The next 3, Anomaly, Trilliax and Aluriel were not as hard though and we wiped only 1-2 times per boss. After that, it was just over. 7 wipes on Krosus and we almost disbanded. We continued to Etraeus and Botanist and had about 4-5 wipes on each and then we just called it.

Even for a first day, this is Normal, aka old Flex, it should not be this hard.

Just compare to Emerald Nightmare, a balanced raid:

First day of Nighthold: 4 Bosses Normal.
First day of Emerald Nightmare: 5 bosses HC, All bosses normal on two characters.

And we didn't even play bad really. This group was good, and we did tactics. The bosses simply hurt too much and have way too much hp. Tactics aren't really the problem. We had on avarage 880 ilvl in the raid, it SHOULD be enough for normal.

Comparing anything to the first Raid of an expansion is a fools play. The first raid have historically been easy(too easy at times) and the following raids have ramped up in difficulty. This raid is the same and is also still considered part of the first tier so it being more difficult that TOV's last boss only makes sense as it is a progression. As I said early I had pugged the first 5 in NH in a group with average ilvl of 870 with little to no issues. As I have always said ILVL does not make the player it is just a tool that a good player has in his belt.

[Saverem]

I believe this was their intention, I think even on Gamescom they said about similarities between them. This structure is great, but still Blackrock Foundry structure is best imo.



Wrong, ToS is other way around. You go down deeper and deeper (you know, because it's tomb ;P), in dungeon you go up.

Uh pls stop pointing out my mistakes, you're making me look stupid. Jerk.

[Bombercloner]

I hope y'all know most of the trash is skippable.

[Banard]

All of them. The first boss was horrible and wiped us many times before we could finally do it.

Blizzard needs to stop making content for people like you. Seriously...on what attempt did you realise "I should not leave the inner circle" and then what attempt did you realise " i should not stand in front of the scorp" Your bad. Your group was bad. If you can't do normal then either get better or stick to LFR. There is content for everyone and it seems you have some LFR heros with your group.


Normal was easy and we ignored most mechanics as a mythic raiding group. Heroic had some very interesting fights b/c we had to pay attention to mechanics..ran out of time so we didn't clear. Tich gave us a bit of trouble. Can't wait for Tuesday.

I also can't wait for this place on mythic...going to be some amazing fights in there. ..I am predicting some of the fights are going into the 200-300 wipe range. W

This is going to be one of those raids up there with ToT and Ulduar. It has a very black temple/sunwell feel to it.

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there was no chance they could outheal his attacks and aoe smashes or w/e the ability was called.

or the tanks can stand in the smash and soak...and the raid takes a lot less damage....you know mechanics.

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Hehe, me neither, this is getting kinda funny. Either I'm the most unlucky player of 7.1.5 or there is something wrong with the raid.

These thread suggest I'm unlucky with groups.

But it's been SO MANY groups, can you even be this unlucky?

no your just bad...and bad players get invited to bad groups.

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as a good ex-top 100 guild in world raider

isn't every one a former top 100 raider?

[Daedius]

Reminds me of Sunwell tbh [visually], but that's due to the Nightwell I'd imagine... just a hunch.